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Thomson recruitment.

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Thomson recruitment.

Old 17th Aug 2015, 14:29
  #221 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: west midlands
Age: 50
Posts: 86
Papa Zulu .

PPY 50 ( permanent part year ) is the forced part time and reduces the salary down to 81%, no further ,except for the initial 7 K training costs.
oceanhawk is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2015, 15:35
  #222 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Uncertain
Posts: 97
So here comes my question then, obviously the salary is annualised and working over Summer will bring in a heck of a lot more duty and sector pay...

Can anybody give a rough run down on what Sector/Duty pay come out at please?

Basically, if my salary were to be reduced to just over 30000k, how much would be a reasonable amount to budget in for?

Also - as I would be applying for a NTR FO (therefore SO) position, how long would it take to become an FO? Is there an hours requirement or is it depending on how long you've been in the company?

Any help appreciated!
hobnobanyone is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2015, 16:54
  #223 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: west midlands
Age: 50
Posts: 86

The extras are Duty rig, FDA and flexible working ( over time) if you want to do some and it's available.
Assuming a full months work in the summer ,without leave I recon on about 100 credits of duty rig. This is about 5.60 per credit after tax ( a credit is almost the same as a flying hour [ first officer ]) and about 2.60 after tax per duty hour. ( first officer).
A flexi payment for working on days off is 472.00 per day , gross ( First Officer ). If the duty goes over midnight or starts before 6 am local it will attract two payments provided you are off both days. Over time of course is not guaranteed if you want it and you do not have to do any, it's optional . You can't second guess it either.

From memory a second officer is upgraded to a first officer when you achieve 1500 hours total with so many hours jet, not sure how many.

The above extra s are a significant add on to the basic. One flexi a month would pass the 1000.00 nett mark.
Is it worth it? Well that depends on many things especially where you are coming from. If it's a turbo prop with no previous jet experience , I would say yes. Put up with a lower salary for a year and look at it as your apprentiship. There are other add on s to consider as well.
As for PPy 50, not ideal when you are a young pilot in the industry trying to build hours and pay. However, this type of flying is very tiring and you become nackered quickly. Many at Tom would love to have PPY 50 or another form of part time , but finances won't allow it. So , regard the quiet winter as rehabilitation for the following summer. It may even give you time to look at a second income stream!
oceanhawk is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2015, 18:13
  #224 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 55
Just a thought, doesn't the 7k reduction apply each year for the first three years if they have to give you a type rating? So 21k in total?

That's quite a paycut....

Edit to add that I now see this is confirmed above.... Disgraceful
Lead is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2015, 18:34
  #225 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 95
That's more than once I've read this 'apprenticeship' notion as a reason for accepting this offer - some of us feel we have served this 'apprenticeship' already with thousands of hours on Dash 8s etc and this kind of deal is actually just derisory.

I certainly can't afford to keep taking 3 steps back to try and take 1 step forward. Just my opinion; I won't be applying. Good luck to those who do.
vrb03kt is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2015, 19:47
  #226 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: In Space
Posts: 684
EXS can't even find rated crew and are trying to recruit from the sandpit. I think the 'pilot shortage*' is upon us due to greedy bean counters.

Good luck all.

B737900er is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2015, 20:16
  #227 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: 35000ft
Posts: 22
It may even allow you time to look at a second income stream !
Brilliant - so the offer is so crap that pilots have to find a second job to make a sensible income....... Which part of that if any sounds like the offering is acceptable ?

Flexible working (overtime) is very sporadic, for an SO it is 430 a day and FO as oceanhawk said above. In the winter there is next to no overtime so don't work any calculations on that, in the summer it is rife for captains because they don't have enough, but very bit n bobby for FO/SO's.

The rosters are so packed now and days off are not in consecutive blocks anymore (used to be but rostering in their wisdoms now penalise the rostering system for this) that means if you have a day off with a flight either side or a blank on one side, even if the duty they offer you on your days off spans 6am or midnight you still only get 1 flexi for what would/should be a double flexi because the day the other side is not a BDO (base day off), many pilots say thanks but no thanks - why they think penalising blocks of days off together is a good idea is anyone's guess, no pilot thinks its logical and it means the flexible working system can't operate without incurring further roster disruption and excessive cost...go figure, some joined up thinking required somewhere.

I'm full time and looked at going part time because as oceanhawk said the work rate is harsh and rostering is not really fatigue mitigating. Unfortunately in order to merit 75% part time I would need to clear 3 flexi a month as an FO and this is just not achievable on a guaranteed basis, some months there are none.

If you're looking to get a mortgage, certain lenders take the average duty rig & FDA over the 12 months and will allow half of your annual flexi/overtime amount, some don't allow the flexible working/overtime calculation at all.

Regarding how much you make in duty rig and FDA, in the 3 months of the summer so far my payslips show a combined total ranging from 800-950 per month which roughly breaks down to 25-30% as FDA and 70-75% as Duty Rig per month.

Remember that is an FO rates, SO rates are 25% less (on the duty rig side) !

If you work on zero FDA/Duty rig/overtime in the winter you won't be far off (see much earlier discussion on this by a ppy50 pilot who joined).

Apparently we are recruiting 60 SO/FO - I have no idea why, that is about 15% increase in the current number of FO/SO's and we've been told we haven't lost many to BA (allegedly). Why the big recruitment drive I don't know, I have not seen any comms on fleet increase, so perhaps they are planning on having more of us on standby next summer (which would mean less overtime/flexi opportunities for pilots).

Regarding the 7000 deduction for type rated pilots, rest assured the pilots in the company think this is disgusting also, but the company obviously know best.

The company like recruiting the part paid year pilots (ppy50), full time summer and 50% part time winter as it suits their summer peak requirement, but it also means they know ppy50 pilots need extra money to live in the winter, as a result they will bid for the crappy terms of the winter detachments that are available to try and boost their income, rather than have to negotiate better detachment terms with BALPA, not many of the full time pilots do them as the detachment terms have got worse over time, so rather than improve the detachment terms they offer them to the PPY FO's/SO's - note this doesn't make you full time period, only for that season (according to the company ). The company get handsomely rewarded too by the Canadians for each pilot they send.

This year only about 7 (at latest check) will be offered winter work overseas in Canada - it's all a bit up in the air because of Canadian industrial issues. We currently have just under 60 PPY50 first officers on the seniority list who joined over the last 3 years.

Hope this is useful.

Last edited by youthinkso; 17th Aug 2015 at 20:29.
youthinkso is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2015, 20:53
  #228 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: west midlands
Age: 50
Posts: 86
Vrb 03

I was referring to it as an 'apprentiship ' over a 12 month period with a 7 K reduction. I think that's worth it! If non type rated is that for 3 years then that's another thing altogether . However, you have to appreciate that you have chosen a career that for the last 20 years , terms and conditions have been subject to constant salmi slicing and is still going on by the bean counters. Things have changed and you are just not going to get what a 65 year old retiring from Tom is going to end up with today.
It's much harder today to get a Boeing or Airbus on your licence coming off a heavy turbo prop. I think you have proved that to yourself with your ' thousands of hours on a Dash 8 etc'
When I joined I had a 10k reduction ( non type rated) ,so it's not a new concept. I also accepted my first turbo prop offer on anything anywhere and my first jet offer too. You can always say no. The proof of the pudding will be with the number of applicants. The ex Ryan guys who joined in the last two years on PPy 50 that I have spoken too have all been very pleased by the move. That's not to say that some (9) have chosen to go to BA .
Tha market is changing in our favour, that's why they have opened up the non type rated route, but it is cyclical and could go easily the other way, it's a gamble.
oceanhawk is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2015, 21:12
  #229 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 272
I thought if there was winter work available on a Thomson aircraft, then that meant you were entitled to go full time? I guess not from what's been said here, which makes bidding for Canada less appealing.

Regarding flexis, is it still the case that crewing are meant to call FWS volunteers before using someone off standby, or has that little incentive fallen by the wayside?
Penworth is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2015, 00:00
  #230 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 361
Not sure I saw it but the 7k is a one off initial payment.

Not 7k for three years.
rjay259 is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2015, 00:06
  #231 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Uncertain
Posts: 97
Thanks for your responses guys.

If I look at it for the Long term, then yep, it makes perfect sense and is a no brainer.

However, the short term is a tiny little niggle... If the salary really does come down to 30100ish, then my take home would be basically around 2k over winter. And utilising an assumption from a previous post, then realistically, it would be around 3k over summer. Averaging, say 2.5k over the course of a year?

However... Having long passed 1500 hours (like many in my company - I've got over X000 hours and X years on turboprops), the upgrade to FO would be reliant on the 500 hours jet surely? Which, looking at the figures, I'd guess there's a chance it would come maybe towards the end of the autumn?

This would help financially a lot, and make it a bit more achievable for me. However, the 7k deduction for 3 years isn't going to help much - especially if I'm recruited on a SO contract for a while. I'm on the wrong side of 30 and the missus is dropping the biological time bomb warnings on me!!

Basically, as it stands at the moment, I can see a massive attraction for the long term, and that sways it significantly (And we're talking really long game here - Max salary for a standard line capt at Purpleplace on the jet is around 78k, something I would be unlikely to achieve given the career limiting quality of the Crew Food here) - but for the short term, even with the deductions, if I knew I could achieve a roughly similar pay to where I am now within a reasonable amount of time, it would nullify my niggle.

The FO base I've read is 47165 - 7000 for "NTR training" and it's actually better than where I am now.

Maybe this is where the companies have us by the short and curlies?

I am wondering though, given that the airline are specifically asking for 1500 hours total time, of which 500 has to be jet/prop/military why they are asking for those requirements when the requirements for an FO upgrade are 1500 hours of which 500 is on a jet.

Either way, the first thing is to be successful in getting the nod for a trip to the assessment, of which realistically the chances are slim. Up until that point, all this post is me thinking aloud to myself about "what if" - and hopefully, if anyone has answers to this random ramble, it'll help me and my colleagues in a similar position a lot!!

Back to the beer!
hobnobanyone is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2015, 08:00
  #232 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: 35000ft
Posts: 22
hi hobnobanyone.

I will try to answer as many as I can.

7000 deduction - if you don't need the B737/B756 type rating it is for one year only, if you do need the rating as you would hobnob it is for 3 years.

Salary, if joining as an SO (less than 1500 hours total and less than 500 hours jet time) then salary is 46,411, this is then reduced to 81.3% for the PPY50 contract = 37,732 per annum, then apply deduction above for type rating for 1 or 3 years as required, giving 30,732.

This link is pretty good to see what that is in your hand Income Tax Calculator 1957.27 a month (with tax code 1060L) playing around with the calculator to add another 1000 per months in the summer increases the take home to 2680ish per month.

One thing you would need to seek clarity on is how the company upgrade from SO to FO pay scales, if it happens like a light switch or if they apply other criteria like does it have to be after you have done your annual sim check with 500 hours on type, the pay agreements say;

"first officer rate paid once 1500 hours and 500jet hours achieved (on a similar aircraft)"

Which would suggest its as soon as you hit the mark, but the agreements for new pilots also say;
"New pilots will have the opportunity to transfer to full-time employment on completion of 5 years service or availability of winter work, if sooner"

That would suggest that those pilots who did winter work e.g. Canada would have been made full time, but the company's unique interpretation of that clause was that it didn't count because they guys went and worked for sunwing (of which TUI owns 49%) in Canada via Thomson, so it didn't count and they remain PPY50, not full time, so by that argument they could send you to any group airline over winter and it wouldn't qualify to become full time !! So you see my point, it is worth getting in writing exactly what triggers the FO pay scale rather than find out of the company apply some novel interpretation.

If it is purely a jet hours trigger then with the max legal of 100 hours in 28 days (max we may be rostered at present under scheduling agreement is 93 hours in any rolling 28 days) you might just manage to get the 5-600 hours in the summer depending on when they get you online, much of the training seems to overrun into summer season, once online though I'm sure many would be willing to swap a Palma for Sharm el sheik to help you build your hours if there is legally room on your roster

It would be frustrating if you just missed the 500 mark before the winter or you could just miss it and then have to go through the winter on your SO pay, though that said when the roster is not up against the legal limits in winter in your 2 weeks on and you're getting 1-3 flight a fortnight I'm sure the full time guys would happily let you have their flights - I know FO's who did this many moons ago to hit the 1500 hours mark to jump to the FO payscales.

The Jump would be from 30,732 to FO pay (55,435 *.813 minus 7000) = 38069, an extra 7336.66 Gross a year, taking the wage from 1957 to 2415 a month in the winter if you managed to get the FO scale (500 jet hours) before the quieter winter (trigger to be confirmed).

I am wondering though, given that the airline are specifically asking for 1500 hours total time, of which 500 has to be jet/prop/military why they are asking for those requirements when the requirements for an FO upgrade are 1500 hours of which 500 is on a jet.
There is a slight variation for each job advert:

non rated : A minimum of 1500 hours of which 500 must be on a twin turbo propeller aircraft, a military aircraft or a multiengine jet

rated:Have a minimum of 300 hours on B737 (300 – 900)• Have a minimum of 100 hours B737 300-900 in 12 months prior to application

I don't know the reason they have dropped to 300 from 500, but perhaps it is a good thing, I know a number of pilots who don't have 500 hours but maybe have 300 from having done a seasons flying on jets (pesky pay to fly schemes or someone who has done a fixed term contract one summer and not made the magic 500 number) so maybe it is opening the doors to them, if it said 500 hours jet then if you are in that situation you have many more options on the market as most add stipulate 500 hours jet, they are also then undercutting jet2 entry requirements

for example Jet 2 Career Search who by all accounts are struggling to find suitable pilots and have now started doing recruitment out in the middle east to try and lure pilots back.

You mentioned being the wrong side of 30 and the long term game, it is worth bearing in mind that at present time to command with Thomson (talking really long game now) is somewhere in the region of 15 years, so you would be on the FO pay point after 5 years in FO rank and command ready at the salary figure of 69,167, no further increments other than annual pay negotiations until you get your command, circa another 10 years minimum. That of course assumes we stay static, don't expand, there is something going on at the moment called "one aviation" which is all about trying to create one airline amongst all the TUI airlines - BLX in Scandinavia, TOM in UK, arkefly in the Netherlands, Jetair in Belgium - so this could vary time scales.

Then of course there is the pension too, this is advertised as 10% company contribution for you guys, this used to be 15%, the pilots have not agreed to drop this to 10% the company are trying it on and did last year too threatening 7% for new joiners. The workforce went apoplectic and still are seething about this, we don't know what the union is doing about this, but if one portion of employees is on less than the others it is only a matter of time before they try and reduce the other pilots (this is the same strategy they used to reduce final salary pension, initially closed it to new joiners, then continued watering it down).

I don't know what the agreements say if you require a type rating and then leave within the 3 years, I don't think anyone has done it yet as the only non type rated people the company have recruited is the internal cadets in the last year or so.

As you say there are not many routes on to a jet from other aircraft at the moment so it is a bit of a short and curlies situation.

Last edited by youthinkso; 18th Aug 2015 at 08:32.
youthinkso is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2015, 09:02
  #233 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 314
I say again, what a pity for what used to be an employer of choice and a company to aspire towards. Now they're paying 10k less than a Tube Driver salary with a deteriorating pension, 15 years to command and an uncertain future with this 'one aviation thing'....wonderful!

I don't have a dog in this race but it's sad to see this still going on. Where's BALPA in all this, anywhere????
2 Whites 2 Reds is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2015, 09:04
  #234 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Europe
Age: 33
Posts: 24

Could someone tell me in what bases the 787 is based at the moment and where it will be based in the future?
FR_A is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2015, 09:08
  #235 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: MAN
Posts: 189
787s MAN and LGW only. I wouldn't plan on them being based anywhere else in the UK for the foreseeable future.
Beakor is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2015, 09:39
  #236 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 95
Youthinkso etc, thank you for taking the time to show the figures so comprehensively. It is very useful to have those guidelines and much appreciated.

I would counter that 2 years ago we were had by the short and curlies. Now, not so much. It's much more of a buyers market. There are several options available to us 'Purpleplace' folk alone for progression from turboprop to jet. BA/Jet2/BACF/Norwegian have all taken a lot of people recently, even Emirates have lowered their application requirements to include turboprops.

As oceanhawk rightly said, we sadly can't expect to retire on the terms of someone retiring from TOM now - my concern is that if we accept these kinds of deals for the 'longer term' carrot being dangled, we then set a precedent for further and further erosion. Especially at a time when the ball seems to be much more in our collective court than it has been for some time. The prevalent thinking in (most) companies unfortunately seems to be to offer the minimum deal they feel they can get away with. If we accept, it endorses it and the slide continues.

I don't mean to steer this entire thread towards the NTR turboprop side of things, but thought it was a discussion worth having.
vrb03kt is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2015, 10:00
  #237 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Uncertain
Posts: 97
Agree, thank you very much for the detailed response. I really appreciate it and it does help to clarify many things - as I strongly suspect, the devil will be in the details as normal. But, I genuinely think information like this provided is really helpful to those of us in the same position.

I've done some sums this morning - and actually, it would take me 6 years to catch up on where I will be here.

This is all based on assumptions:

But in that time, I'll have taken nearly a 20k pay cut for year 1 (haha yeah... right, good start!), and by the time I get to year 6 (when it works out that the salaries catch up), assuming a bit of blag magic maths, in actual fact, purpleplace will have paid me effectively 2 extra years at Thomson FO paypoint 1 - (the difference is 77k in favour of the current place).

And given that in that period of time, I'll be hopefully settled down with a family - I have a sneaky feeling that on these terms and conditions, it might be a no-go for me. Unless of course things change - as I said earlier, the devil is very much in the details - and this might not be anywhere near the final offer, but as it stands, that's what I've worked out.

Really sorry to hijack this thread with Turboprop comments too - I think vbr03 has got it right. Whereas even 2 years ago, it was a case of getting a jet job in whatever way possible - in fact, the market is changing and airlines are starting to look at us again. And not before time thankfully.

hobnobanyone is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2015, 10:01
  #238 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: somewhere
Posts: 357
You mentioned being the wrong side of 30 and the long term game,
Though I should give all a bit of a laugh...what if someone is on the "middle" side of his...ehm...FORTIES*?

Needless to say one needs the nod for the AC and a job offer first, of course.


* Still no attachments, kinda giving up on having a (human) life or living at "home"...
drag king is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2015, 10:22
  #239 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: 35000ft
Posts: 22
I agree, even something as simple as the 7k becoming a training bond over 3 years instead of an actual monetary deduction would make a significant difference, you know...like the old days :-)

I wish you well, I smell the pilot shortage coming and the end of driving pilots terms lower but instead the other way around....about time.
youthinkso is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2015, 10:23
  #240 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: west midlands
Age: 50
Posts: 86
If I were a turbo prop FO today looking for a career advancement on to big jets, then I would certainly apply to Thomson and go and see what they have to say. I think you have to look at it in the medium term, not the sort term and look at the deal with a broad brush. You can always say no to an offer if you feel you are being short changed. Moreover, if after 3 years say with 1000 hrs + on the Boeing you can always leave. The 738 is very useful time to have.
The 787 is only based at Manchester and Gatwick and that does nt look like it's going to change.

That's all folks!'
oceanhawk is offline  

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