Monarch in turbulence
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You speak for yourself ,pal.
I sure as hell am not semi skilled, and the sweat on my brow in the sim is a clear sign. The dedication, effort, coordination, knowledge accumulation , mental agility and responsibility alone dictate that that is not the case.
anyway, I sympathise with the monarch guys positions, I was in the same boat with astraeus exactly three years ago and its a terribly unsettling time , and it always seems to occur before Christmas as well.
Best of luck to all affected.
I sure as hell am not semi skilled, and the sweat on my brow in the sim is a clear sign. The dedication, effort, coordination, knowledge accumulation , mental agility and responsibility alone dictate that that is not the case.
anyway, I sympathise with the monarch guys positions, I was in the same boat with astraeus exactly three years ago and its a terribly unsettling time , and it always seems to occur before Christmas as well.
Best of luck to all affected.
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Grossly overpaid?
planet are you on? I hope you are not in this profession (you might demean it, not me) because if you are we are well and trully stuffed with your bonkers attitude, doing managements work for them you are 
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This is what comes of having a fragmented workforce who, although heavily unionised, are never prepared to fight for their conditions and pay (At least in the UK). BALPA are always 'keeping their powder dry'. Compare and contrast pilots with tube/ train drivers.
BALPA - No matter how big of a storm, we keep the powder dry!
short flights long nights
Great post Enzo. It is so sad to see what has become of this industry.
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I am glad Enzo999 posted his rant - its perfectly justified because it reflects the plight of the "experienced pilot" in the UK and W.Europe in general. The problem is, there is more than a grain of truth in what John_Smith has posted too. I think his post reflects more how pilots are viewed and treated by "the industry" rather than his opinion being we are all defacto "semi-skilled workers".
The route cause lies with EZY and RYR who have ruthlessly driven costs out of the airline model at every level to deliver "cheap" flying for the masses. They have seen rapid growth and report consistent profits with their game-changer model and this is enticingly attractive to investors and airline managers (who survive their jobs by keeping investors happy). Make no mistake, if airlines could pay the minimum wage to FO's they would (in many cases they arguably do!); fuel, maintenance, finance and wages are the big 4 in airline costs - two they cant do too much about so they will sure as hell the other two for all they can.
Sadly I don't see much hope of change anytime soon; until there is a shortage of pilots the laws of economics suggest wages and conditions will remain under pressure for some time. Unfortunately the CAA sees nothing wrong with this structural change (despite losses in experience from UK aviation), neither does BALPA and the industry remains safe enough and efficient enough so the travelling public don't care much either.
The situation at Monarch, should they stay or should they go, will do nothing to help.
The route cause lies with EZY and RYR who have ruthlessly driven costs out of the airline model at every level to deliver "cheap" flying for the masses. They have seen rapid growth and report consistent profits with their game-changer model and this is enticingly attractive to investors and airline managers (who survive their jobs by keeping investors happy). Make no mistake, if airlines could pay the minimum wage to FO's they would (in many cases they arguably do!); fuel, maintenance, finance and wages are the big 4 in airline costs - two they cant do too much about so they will sure as hell
the other two for all they can.Sadly I don't see much hope of change anytime soon; until there is a shortage of pilots the laws of economics suggest wages and conditions will remain under pressure for some time. Unfortunately the CAA sees nothing wrong with this structural change (despite losses in experience from UK aviation), neither does BALPA and the industry remains safe enough and efficient enough so the travelling public don't care much either.
The situation at Monarch, should they stay or should they go, will do nothing to help.
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
Proper careers are protected by industry regulators and unions/lobby groups who help to hammer out those regulations. Proper careers guarantee those with experience; the most to lose and the least to gain from unemployment, the right to further employability. The recruitment/employment preferences of our airlines has led to a system where one's experience doing the job works directly against one's employability.
This is what you would expect a union to address.
Proper careers are protected by industry regulators and unions/lobby groups who help to hammer out those regulations. Proper careers guarantee those with experience; the most to lose and the least to gain from unemployment, the right to further employability. The recruitment/employment preferences of our airlines has led to a system where one's experience doing the job works directly against one's employability.
This is what you would expect a union to address.
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Straight forward job? 
I can assure you it's not a straight forward job, Landing on 1800m runway/64T nothing straight forward about that!
Also two days ago, landing in UK, 30kt X Wind, dark, rain! nothing straight forward about that! Go back to your office JS
I can assure you it's not a straight forward job, Landing on 1800m runway/64T nothing straight forward about that!
Also two days ago, landing in UK, 30kt X Wind, dark, rain! nothing straight forward about that! Go back to your office JS
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A large part of the skilled vs semi-skilled job argument is to do with how often a pilot has to demonstrate the kind of skill that can bring a fully laden 200 pax jet down safely given a howling crosswind, rain and 45 mins of fuel remaining. Answer of course depends on where you are in the world but for most of us it's not very often.
Arguably, a very typical day in the world of flying a commercial airliner can be completed safely with a very basic but safety concious effort and it often does. We, as pilots are respected for our abilities to get out of the poo when it hits the fan.
Many jobs out there required similar concentration levels but the numbers required to fulfill the role are low. In piloting terms we have huge supply and a not as big demand, so the cheapest bidder wins giving arise to lowly opinions of the job from within.
Arguably, a very typical day in the world of flying a commercial airliner can be completed safely with a very basic but safety concious effort and it often does. We, as pilots are respected for our abilities to get out of the poo when it hits the fan.
Many jobs out there required similar concentration levels but the numbers required to fulfill the role are low. In piloting terms we have huge supply and a not as big demand, so the cheapest bidder wins giving arise to lowly opinions of the job from within.
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John_Smith is spot on !
We can big ourselves up , the reality is the company can replace us tomorrow with someone willing to take less for it & subsequently they will be pushed out by the next bloke who wants to walk around with more stripes on his shoulder & willing to do so on a lesser contract.
We can tell ourselves we can do the job better but the reality is the equiptment is so stable & reliable these days , most inexperienced guys can do a pretty good job too .
As others have said , Balpa have let us all down , they've been taking our money for a long time & doing nothing for the long term stability of our industry.
I don't think the GMC would've sat around as those idiots at Balpa have done ! Maybe it's time we all told Balpa to get their finger out or we'll be moving to a Union who is willing to do something about the realities of the industry rather than bang on about crew food ................
We can big ourselves up , the reality is the company can replace us tomorrow with someone willing to take less for it & subsequently they will be pushed out by the next bloke who wants to walk around with more stripes on his shoulder & willing to do so on a lesser contract.
We can tell ourselves we can do the job better but the reality is the equiptment is so stable & reliable these days , most inexperienced guys can do a pretty good job too .
As others have said , Balpa have let us all down , they've been taking our money for a long time & doing nothing for the long term stability of our industry.
I don't think the GMC would've sat around as those idiots at Balpa have done ! Maybe it's time we all told Balpa to get their finger out or we'll be moving to a Union who is willing to do something about the realities of the industry rather than bang on about crew food ................
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We do a straight-forward job, with bugger all in the way of formal academic entry requirements, where the sole criterion for entry is fast becoming the size of your wallet.
Flying is a skill & experience counts. Unfortunately the industry has forgotten this.
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We earn less and get treated with less respect than train/tube drivers!
If you think been a pilot makes you special these days you are deluded! Some rich kid will always pay to get ahead! I would be very keen to become a professional train driver, but the reality is, that actually is a very skilled job and you can't just buy your way in!
If you think been a pilot makes you special these days you are deluded! Some rich kid will always pay to get ahead! I would be very keen to become a professional train driver, but the reality is, that actually is a very skilled job and you can't just buy your way in!
"Balpa to get their finger out or we'll be moving to a Union who is willing to do something about the realities of the industry rather than bang on about crew food .."
A union is formed and directed by its members whilst constrained by the laws. Balpa is not to blame, it's the inability of its members to unite that limit much of what it can do, followed by the labour laws of the UK.
This forum is a typical example of the issues BALPA have to get over, the in fighting, one-up-man-ship, the compleate loss of faith in the profession and the can't be bothered attitude of many displayed.
We play ourselfs into the hands of airline management to divide and conquer.
A union is formed and directed by its members whilst constrained by the laws. Balpa is not to blame, it's the inability of its members to unite that limit much of what it can do, followed by the labour laws of the UK.
This forum is a typical example of the issues BALPA have to get over, the in fighting, one-up-man-ship, the compleate loss of faith in the profession and the can't be bothered attitude of many displayed.
We play ourselfs into the hands of airline management to divide and conquer.
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How we perceive ourselves to be and how the industry perceives us to be are distantly apart. There's little point in glorifying the nature the nature of our work, this will achieve little until the regulators, unions act. We are remunerated on how the bean counters have successfully underplayed our role.
MPL, integrated courses. Ask any of the factory churned pilots whether they would feel comfortable flying imc, solo and in s**t weather. The answer speaks words for the level of training and the passengers are yet to realise just how competent or incompetent the guys/girls in the pointy end can be.
MPL, integrated courses. Ask any of the factory churned pilots whether they would feel comfortable flying imc, solo and in s**t weather. The answer speaks words for the level of training and the passengers are yet to realise just how competent or incompetent the guys/girls in the pointy end can be.
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What are there in the way of academic entry requirements for air traffic controllers? A couple of A-Levels? Would I therefore be right to say that their job is a menial blue collar one and that they are overpaid? I wouldn't because it's an unbelievably stupid argument.
Last edited by RexBanner; 24th Oct 2014 at 07:33.
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With the MPL, CTC and low cost airline models. The overall salaries / packages will be less than what they were before and those that were modular are finding it even harder to join an airline working their way up, with the likes of CTC's scheme's and contracts to supply with airlines.
Pilots are now a commodity and doubt things will change until their is a proper shortage or an accident, which the regulators mandate certain experience. Like in America.
Pilots are now a commodity and doubt things will change until their is a proper shortage or an accident, which the regulators mandate certain experience. Like in America.
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Except you are working on the massive assumption that people will remain willing to fork out over £100k when the job doesn't provide a return on investment. At the moment the career still does, barely but it does. Watch that change when it doesn't and it WILL change. That doesn't fit with the world view of the doom-mongers on this site so they will either assert it won't happen or ignore it entirely.
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When I read posts like the very good one posted by enzo999, it makes me absolutely furious when I hear of 'public sector workers' going on strike due to some measly 'grievance' trumped up by some politically inspired union. Not one of those public sector 'workers' face having to uproot their families to some culturally alien corner of the world in order to maintain them. Not one of them will have their wives crying themselves to sleep because of that. And the likes of enzo999 would have been paying an absolute fortune in taxes to maintain that public sector 'worker' in his cushy position.
To add to that there is not as much solidarity amongst pilots as many would like to think: many of those losing their positions and wanting to take up jobs in other UK airlines would face pilots in those airlines looking down on them and saying "We don't care about all your experience and expertise, take your place down there at the bottom of our seniority list and don't you dare think of threatening my cushy position". It is not only the bean-counters and managers that have no regard for experience and expertise, it is often other pilots too.
This is a horrible industry. It has fantastic safety records due to the experience, expertise and hard work of its pilots. But it turns and kicks them in the teeth without a second thought. And its not just the bean-counters and managers often doing the kicking, but also sometimes fellow pilots. I have seen many directly and heard of many, many more situations where pilots have had absolutely appalling disruption to their lives and heartbreak for their families. This is a horrible industry.
It can be absolutely fantastic flying on a lovely day, watching a beautiful sunrise or sunset, but this is countered by those nasty CBs, howling gales and snow-closed or foggy airports; not just in pure flying terms but also in the 'figurative' job security terms with bumpy employment terms, financial bad winds through the industry or closing airlines. This is a horrible industry.
Good luck everyone in Monarch*, and if you end up in a crew-room with me you are welcome, regardless of how much you have on your shoulders (literally and figuratively!).
To add to that there is not as much solidarity amongst pilots as many would like to think: many of those losing their positions and wanting to take up jobs in other UK airlines would face pilots in those airlines looking down on them and saying "We don't care about all your experience and expertise, take your place down there at the bottom of our seniority list and don't you dare think of threatening my cushy position". It is not only the bean-counters and managers that have no regard for experience and expertise, it is often other pilots too.
This is a horrible industry. It has fantastic safety records due to the experience, expertise and hard work of its pilots. But it turns and kicks them in the teeth without a second thought. And its not just the bean-counters and managers often doing the kicking, but also sometimes fellow pilots. I have seen many directly and heard of many, many more situations where pilots have had absolutely appalling disruption to their lives and heartbreak for their families. This is a horrible industry.
It can be absolutely fantastic flying on a lovely day, watching a beautiful sunrise or sunset, but this is countered by those nasty CBs, howling gales and snow-closed or foggy airports; not just in pure flying terms but also in the 'figurative' job security terms with bumpy employment terms, financial bad winds through the industry or closing airlines. This is a horrible industry.
Good luck everyone in Monarch*, and if you end up in a crew-room with me you are welcome, regardless of how much you have on your shoulders (literally and figuratively!).
Last edited by Trossie; 24th Oct 2014 at 08:16. Reason: * added to ensure compliance with Scallywag's 'deadline!