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So the 10000 hrs Captains were rejected first time around?
I was under the impression once you have been rejected you have to wait at Least 12 months before you can reapply.....was this the case ?
Did they have to re-sit ALL the tests plus interviews?
I was under the impression once you have been rejected you have to wait at Least 12 months before you can reapply.....was this the case ?
Did they have to re-sit ALL the tests plus interviews?
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I can think of numerous skippers with 10000hrs who got in during the recruitment drive in 2005/2006.
If I can say anything about the BA selection is that it matters not who you are or where you come from. Completely above board and no favours can be pulled.
It is what it is and it's served us well over the years, like it or not.
If I can say anything about the BA selection is that it matters not who you are or where you come from. Completely above board and no favours can be pulled.
It is what it is and it's served us well over the years, like it or not.
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Quite possibly Shaka Zulu, but not really relevant what happened 10 years ago. I was asking if it was really true that captains with other airlines with over 10000 hours are really applying for First Officer positions with BA where the experience requirement for the role is 200 hours.
I questioned, as have others, why very good experienced pilots with other airlines are rejected at a phase designed to test aptitude to be a pilot when others with no experience get through. If BA really do need 320 pilots then a lot are being passed over. I also wonder why the hours requirement dropped from 500 hrs earlier this year to 200 hrs this time. Is the answer because there were not enough good experienced pilots first time round or is because the process is silly and unnecessarily eliminates excellent candidates. Is it really feasible that Monarch pilots (for example) are not suitable to be pilots ?
It may be that the process is not open to corruption or discrimination and is even handed but it is also not the point.
I questioned, as have others, why very good experienced pilots with other airlines are rejected at a phase designed to test aptitude to be a pilot when others with no experience get through. If BA really do need 320 pilots then a lot are being passed over. I also wonder why the hours requirement dropped from 500 hrs earlier this year to 200 hrs this time. Is the answer because there were not enough good experienced pilots first time round or is because the process is silly and unnecessarily eliminates excellent candidates. Is it really feasible that Monarch pilots (for example) are not suitable to be pilots ?
It may be that the process is not open to corruption or discrimination and is even handed but it is also not the point.
Really student88. 10k+ hr captains applying for FO role that required 200 hrs as advertised.
..invited to interview after successfully passing stage 1.
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I first applied to BA at the end of the eighties. At that time it was obvious the company were looking to recruit pilots. In the intervening period it has become apparent that pilot ability may have fallen quite far down the list of desirable qualities. I believe some years ago BA turned down the leader of the Red Arrows for lack of flying ability!
If BA are looking for managers with a flying licence, anyone wishing to get in should prepare themselves accordingly. Anyone not wishing to play that game probably isn't what BA are looking for anyway?
Apart from meeting the minimum criteria, I very much doubt BA will be too interested in additional experience? Perhaps it comes with too much baggage?
Anyone like to discuss the merits of monitored approaches, for example?
It must also take a certain type of personality for an experienced captain to happily spend a number of years back in the RHS with no possibility of 'upgrade'? Sitting next to relatively young, relatively inexperienced captains.
If BA are looking for managers with a flying licence, anyone wishing to get in should prepare themselves accordingly. Anyone not wishing to play that game probably isn't what BA are looking for anyway?
Apart from meeting the minimum criteria, I very much doubt BA will be too interested in additional experience? Perhaps it comes with too much baggage?
Anyone like to discuss the merits of monitored approaches, for example?
It must also take a certain type of personality for an experienced captain to happily spend a number of years back in the RHS with no possibility of 'upgrade'? Sitting next to relatively young, relatively inexperienced captains.
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Don't really disagree 4468. BA are looking for more than a pilot but then (rightly) so are many many others who don't decide on the strength of a computer game, a maths test and verbal reasoning whether an individual has these abilities. These tests are for assessing the aptitude of an individual to be a pilot and would be valid in assessing an individual before a company takes them on where there is no track record or evidential history of ability. For instance in the case of choosing individuals onto a cadet scheme. I wonder how many current BA pilots would actually pass these tests now - I bet not all ! In fact BA should do this to test the validity of the tests - spring it in a few with a weeks notice and see what happens.
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The problem is that the days of 'let's have a look around and if we like the cut of yer Jib we'll give you the job nod from the Chief Pilot' have long gone.
Day 1 is primarily sorted out by 'Da Computer' with little input from mere humans except in the group discussion exercises. Personally I do not know what score percentage these carry to the final pass/fail criteria (perhaps Lindsay could shed some light on it eh? ;-) ).
The bottom line means that irrelevant of whether you are Pontious the Pilot himself or the most charismatic man in the Fifedom if the computer say 'No' the HR mafia won't let you through to the next round.
Do I agree with such a system? Perhaps not, I was once offered a job after a walk around and a coffee but that was a long time ago in a world where lots of people knew who the others in the industry were. Perhaps understandably the HR department use the system as a filter to cut down on the workload at day 2. However the system DOES work for the company and the 'product' the system delivers is excellent. You must remember that a 10,000+ hour Captain from an airline will have the same process as a 3,000 hour military Captain and a 500 hour 'self improver'. It is a difficult juggling act.
Far from perfect but it's what the world is coming to and it seems what is necessary.
p.s. A few of my mates have failed BA interview, good guys all of them. It's just the way it happens on the day I'm afraid.
p.p.s I have it on good authority that human intervention is made in all cases and all day 1 assessments are checked over by the recruiting team before the final decision is made!
Day 1 is primarily sorted out by 'Da Computer' with little input from mere humans except in the group discussion exercises. Personally I do not know what score percentage these carry to the final pass/fail criteria (perhaps Lindsay could shed some light on it eh? ;-) ).
The bottom line means that irrelevant of whether you are Pontious the Pilot himself or the most charismatic man in the Fifedom if the computer say 'No' the HR mafia won't let you through to the next round.
Do I agree with such a system? Perhaps not, I was once offered a job after a walk around and a coffee but that was a long time ago in a world where lots of people knew who the others in the industry were. Perhaps understandably the HR department use the system as a filter to cut down on the workload at day 2. However the system DOES work for the company and the 'product' the system delivers is excellent. You must remember that a 10,000+ hour Captain from an airline will have the same process as a 3,000 hour military Captain and a 500 hour 'self improver'. It is a difficult juggling act.
Far from perfect but it's what the world is coming to and it seems what is necessary.
p.s. A few of my mates have failed BA interview, good guys all of them. It's just the way it happens on the day I'm afraid.
p.p.s I have it on good authority that human intervention is made in all cases and all day 1 assessments are checked over by the recruiting team before the final decision is made!
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 15th Oct 2014 at 09:32. Reason: poor wording and possible mis-interpretation!
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WhyByFlier,
Whilst any recruitment process isn't infallible there is a certain degree of commonality and fairness that must be attributed to all applicants. Hence initial processes must be irrespective of experience and hours. If you apply as DEP it's a given that you have the licence and can fly the jet. Your performance on the day is what is going to get you through the process and that is a level field for all.
Like all of these processes I have been through it provides the employer with a 'snap shot' of who you are and what you are. How well the applicant puts that across is up to them but, as we've seen in the past many times, some people are better than others at projecting what they want others to see.
As far as 'odd-balls' go I'm afraid that you will find your percentage in all walks of life. That's a product of statistics. Also it's pointless stating a list of 'look what these guys have done' people as the company has no control over how these people develop over the years. Perhaps they displayed their 'persona' better at the time of recruitment, certainly those who have gone on to do, shall we say, less savory acts have historically been proven to be able to cover up their alter lives/ego's very well.
No process will be 'perfect' but if the recruitment system puts all applicants on a level playing field of having whatever experience they have to draw from and a licence then it is up to the applicant to prove themselves capable for employment, not the employer.
Can't really get much fairer than that.
As far as those leaving I believe it is due to the amount of time to command. I wish them well and good luck. Ironically the stagnation attributed to the increase in the compulsory retirement age is coming to an end and, with the return of the 'Little Red' slots to BA and the delivery of the 350 XWB, I feel we are about to see some more growth and movement at Heathrow. Potentially increased by the decision to keep and refit some of the 744's that were due to be retired. Perhaps they jumped too soon, perhaps not, personal circumstances will always dictate peoples decisions and I have always respected that. Not everyone wants the same thing.
Whilst any recruitment process isn't infallible there is a certain degree of commonality and fairness that must be attributed to all applicants. Hence initial processes must be irrespective of experience and hours. If you apply as DEP it's a given that you have the licence and can fly the jet. Your performance on the day is what is going to get you through the process and that is a level field for all.
Like all of these processes I have been through it provides the employer with a 'snap shot' of who you are and what you are. How well the applicant puts that across is up to them but, as we've seen in the past many times, some people are better than others at projecting what they want others to see.
As far as 'odd-balls' go I'm afraid that you will find your percentage in all walks of life. That's a product of statistics. Also it's pointless stating a list of 'look what these guys have done' people as the company has no control over how these people develop over the years. Perhaps they displayed their 'persona' better at the time of recruitment, certainly those who have gone on to do, shall we say, less savory acts have historically been proven to be able to cover up their alter lives/ego's very well.
No process will be 'perfect' but if the recruitment system puts all applicants on a level playing field of having whatever experience they have to draw from and a licence then it is up to the applicant to prove themselves capable for employment, not the employer.
Can't really get much fairer than that.
As far as those leaving I believe it is due to the amount of time to command. I wish them well and good luck. Ironically the stagnation attributed to the increase in the compulsory retirement age is coming to an end and, with the return of the 'Little Red' slots to BA and the delivery of the 350 XWB, I feel we are about to see some more growth and movement at Heathrow. Potentially increased by the decision to keep and refit some of the 744's that were due to be retired. Perhaps they jumped too soon, perhaps not, personal circumstances will always dictate peoples decisions and I have always respected that. Not everyone wants the same thing.
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WOW
Not often do I see something as bad as this from a poster - but this is unbelievably rude, potentially libellous, and of course I'm sure you asked your CP before posting this did you? And we're talking about your CP yes, where you've said already you work?
Jeepers.
Not often do I see something as bad as this from a poster - but this is unbelievably rude, potentially libellous, and of course I'm sure you asked your CP before posting this did you? And we're talking about your CP yes, where you've said already you work?
A quote from the chief pilot of a very large UK airline - 'if i'd know who the majority of people BA were taking from us, I'd have driven them to the process myself'.
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WhyByFlier
You may be an Easy SFO. Yet you have an awful lot to say about BA's Direct Entry Pilot process, and BA pilots generally. (with some inaccurate understanding of how the company works) So I'll ask again, as I did a little earlier:
You may be an Easy SFO. Yet you have an awful lot to say about BA's Direct Entry Pilot process, and BA pilots generally. (with some inaccurate understanding of how the company works) So I'll ask again, as I did a little earlier:
WBF, you seem to have a real axe to grind over BA. Why is that???
Sawadee I'm not sure you understand the definition of libellous. This would in fact be slander, but it's not anyway because no-one has been identified at any point, not the individuals concerned or the chief pilot or even the company. it's just an opinion, relax.
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Heck, who cares if it is slander or libel?
I thought it was a great quote. I wish I'd thought of it myself.
Actually, I hope it is made up. It is a great line. Bravo, Sir!!
I thought it was a great quote. I wish I'd thought of it myself.
Actually, I hope it is made up. It is a great line. Bravo, Sir!!
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Which bits of WBF post are not true then ?
Also, level playing fields are great when they are level. You don't think that a training company coaching their guys with the actual software is a level of support not available to others.
Also, level playing fields are great when they are level. You don't think that a training company coaching their guys with the actual software is a level of support not available to others.
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Jeepers
WBF I assume you'd be that rude to my face if we met?
I was posting a robust comment because I thought your repeating of that comment (true or untrue) was pretty poor show really. It's a horrible thing to say, and a horrible thing to repeat, in a world that's full of hatred, problems...
If you are saying my understanding of the word is wrong then mea culpa - but I did just look up the dictionary and it says (Collins):
2) any defamatory or unflattering representation or statement
So, my thought was just that's a rude thing to repeat. There was no need to say it. Also, you were extremely rude to me - am I not allowed to express an opinion without being shot down? Were you the name caller school bully? If so, bravo for growing out of it already.
It's the language only I don't like, not your position. I would agree that each airline may or may not be for an individual - BA/EZ/FR/EK whichever. BA isn't the white gloved government owned enterprise it once was, but that's life. If someone doesn't want to join, then that's their choice! EZ is a fine airline in my opinion - does what it says on the tin, very successful, and customers obviously like it! I would wish that cadets were offered a fairer start and package to begin with but that's just me. I would say that anyone working for EZ will have great training, good aircraft to fly, and a wide network to operate on. Relatively quick command on a fab aircraft, lots to like? I think some others would probably agree.
OK and one apology - I know you didn't identify your airline, or the CP concerned, and I was clearly baiting to try and get a response and for you to say more on the topic. That wasn't good form so I do apologise for that.
WBF I assume you'd be that rude to my face if we met?
I was posting a robust comment because I thought your repeating of that comment (true or untrue) was pretty poor show really. It's a horrible thing to say, and a horrible thing to repeat, in a world that's full of hatred, problems...
If you are saying my understanding of the word is wrong then mea culpa - but I did just look up the dictionary and it says (Collins):
2) any defamatory or unflattering representation or statement
So, my thought was just that's a rude thing to repeat. There was no need to say it. Also, you were extremely rude to me - am I not allowed to express an opinion without being shot down? Were you the name caller school bully? If so, bravo for growing out of it already.
It's the language only I don't like, not your position. I would agree that each airline may or may not be for an individual - BA/EZ/FR/EK whichever. BA isn't the white gloved government owned enterprise it once was, but that's life. If someone doesn't want to join, then that's their choice! EZ is a fine airline in my opinion - does what it says on the tin, very successful, and customers obviously like it! I would wish that cadets were offered a fairer start and package to begin with but that's just me. I would say that anyone working for EZ will have great training, good aircraft to fly, and a wide network to operate on. Relatively quick command on a fab aircraft, lots to like? I think some others would probably agree.
OK and one apology - I know you didn't identify your airline, or the CP concerned, and I was clearly baiting to try and get a response and for you to say more on the topic. That wasn't good form so I do apologise for that.
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Horribly, horribly offensive, again:
I can only assume (go on hit me with that ASS U ME thing again) that you are an awful bully, and a nasty person to know.
that's why crap gets in
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree - I'm just thinking that if you turn on the news and you see how much trouble there is out the world, we could perhaps do better than to describe colleagues (whether we like them or not, know them or not etc) as 'crap' - noun or adjective doesn't matter it's just not really something we should say.
I agree there is a spread of ability within any company, industry or profession. I might or might not be your cup of tea, and you mine, if we met without knowing each other's PPRuNe name. Hey, do you think we've flown together already, maybe had a beer somewhere?
Doesn't matter really. I accept you don't believe BA is well run, you are entitled to express that opinion. I don't think that Easy (or BA for that matter) is perfect (from past experience, and from experiences of my family where in one case my father was literally abandoned by the airline, and the ground agent at the desk lied to his face and refused to help him) but they are very limited experiences - millions every year are happy flying with them and thousands of pilots work there, probably most enjoy it?
Maybe back to the topic - BA is something people should only approach with eyes open sure! Think about the pros and cons of London basing, pay, seniority, the fact the airline will continue to adapt in the face of competition from every direction, what you want from your life/career etc. If it's not for you then no snags. I don't think we're having a p'ing contest nor should we - both BA and Easy offer interesting careers, just different.
Gotta go, thanks for the debate.
I agree there is a spread of ability within any company, industry or profession. I might or might not be your cup of tea, and you mine, if we met without knowing each other's PPRuNe name. Hey, do you think we've flown together already, maybe had a beer somewhere?
Doesn't matter really. I accept you don't believe BA is well run, you are entitled to express that opinion. I don't think that Easy (or BA for that matter) is perfect (from past experience, and from experiences of my family where in one case my father was literally abandoned by the airline, and the ground agent at the desk lied to his face and refused to help him) but they are very limited experiences - millions every year are happy flying with them and thousands of pilots work there, probably most enjoy it?
Maybe back to the topic - BA is something people should only approach with eyes open sure! Think about the pros and cons of London basing, pay, seniority, the fact the airline will continue to adapt in the face of competition from every direction, what you want from your life/career etc. If it's not for you then no snags. I don't think we're having a p'ing contest nor should we - both BA and Easy offer interesting careers, just different.
Gotta go, thanks for the debate.
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
A defamatory statement must be published before it is libel. In any case the CP statement is not anywhere near libel. In the case here the CP would have to write untruthfully to a third party that F/O Raspberry Titus Crumble is a dodgy pilot before there would be an offence.
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You don't think that a training company coaching their guys with the actual software is a level of support not available to others.
The entire recruitment process is 'trainable', same as flying training is 'trainable' same as your sim checks are 'trainable' you just have to achieve it in the manner and the time frame the employer requires. I don't see the point? Preparation is key to any interview. Do your homework, work out what the employee wants and then give it to them. What is your point? Everyone going into the process has the same set of tests levied against them. Either you pass it or don't. If you've practiced, read and brushed up on some relevant questions, well done. If not and you want to 'wing it' why not, give it a go. It is all your own choice.
BA is full of opportunities. They are not to every ones taste but they are there. Short Haul, Long Haul, Command, Management, Training etc. The recruitment process looks at you as a whole and the future possibility of you in Command or potentially in a management role. Those reading who have done a command course know what the lessons from group exercises brings. Nurture and guide to a resolution if needed, be firm when necessary and take on board and evaluate suggestions. Finally decide on a course of action based upon the information given. Sound familiar to the day job? Autocrats tend to be a pain in the neck to fly with whatever seat you happen to sit in.
BA short haul is going through pain at the moment as it tries to adjust as a business. Oddly enough not unlike the pain that Easy Jet went through around 2010. The difficulties are that BA is a much older company and the SH feeds the LH. It makes the cost base comparison difficult. It will be sorted out but it will take some give and take from both sides.
As a friend of mine from Easy Jet pointed out when I last saw him at LGW he was tired and frustrated and wondered occasionally if he could just once get off the jet and have a look around some of the places he was ferrying people to.
There are pluses and minuses on both sides of the coin. The simple fact is that the recruitment process is open and fair and produces a product that the training department, as the customer for recruitment, is happy with with very few failures.
If it's not for you then don't apply and leave the bandwidth for those who want to.
Nice to know I'm considered the 'C**p' now for not touching my face in a meeting!
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 15th Oct 2014 at 14:36.
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hunter ace, "....What ARE they looking for?" and you wouldn't better this!?
IMHO, it's not enough any more for safety and process but also for the internal senses (feelings, love et la) that you bring; beyond the flight deck, and more!
Wirbelsturm, quality
The recruitment process looks at you as a whole and the future possibility of you in Command or potentially in a management role.
Wirbelsturm, quality