Is BALPA fit for purpose
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I suspect Desk-pilot has it right.
It is more than likely it is the salaries ( going forward) that the Beanies wish to save a bob on, by getting rid of the most expensive pilots, highly unlikely it has much to do with training costs.
Perhaps this is strictly essential, but I doubt it. I have had conversations in the past with those more intimately acquianted with the black art of costs & accountancy than I am, it has usually been revealed to me that wage costs are relatively unimportant in an airline in the grand scheme of things. If they truly are so desparate to reduce these, I would suggest you are already up sh1t creek minus a prop blade.
I would wager that pure corporate greed, manifested in someone seeing a way to make an extra buck on the premise of "survival methods", will be closer to the truth here.
It is more than likely it is the salaries ( going forward) that the Beanies wish to save a bob on, by getting rid of the most expensive pilots, highly unlikely it has much to do with training costs.
Perhaps this is strictly essential, but I doubt it. I have had conversations in the past with those more intimately acquianted with the black art of costs & accountancy than I am, it has usually been revealed to me that wage costs are relatively unimportant in an airline in the grand scheme of things. If they truly are so desparate to reduce these, I would suggest you are already up sh1t creek minus a prop blade.
I would wager that pure corporate greed, manifested in someone seeing a way to make an extra buck on the premise of "survival methods", will be closer to the truth here.
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The lawyers state that written policy becomes contractual if accepted by both parties over a period of time.
I suspect you're right about the course of action being the cheapest for the company, when has it ever been different? Apart from JF's nice new pad in Belgravia of course.
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You might find that flybe are stuck.
The job is being made redundant not the person.
So if they make someone redundant and then fill the position with someone else within 1 year then the person who is made redundant can then start legal proceedings.
BALPA will be stuck in the middle as well. The senior pilots wanting it to be LIFO and back fill Q400 slots, the pilots who would now be kicked out will be saying hang on that's illegal BALPA take them to court my job wasn't made redundant there is someone else doing it now.
I think the removal of 2/3rds of the wage bill will be the reason if in fact that is true. The training costs are a bit of a red herring in my opinion 1 senior Captains salary for a year would pay for 6 type ratings.
Welcome to the new world of aviation, its now very unusual for pilots to actually work for the airline. We are all pumped through some 3rd party company which deals with the wages and if they want they just close it down and transfer the pilots to another company if they have any problems with crew. Its a right pain, some of the youngsters can't get mortgages etc even after working for the same outfit for 5 years because on paper they are self employed even though they don't want to be. Then you get the occasion transfer of middle company's due to changes in tax laws so the company's can take advantage of low corporation tax's. Which leads to the crew being wide open to getting into trouble with multiple country's tax laws.
Company ops , in one country, AOC in another, company owned and controlled in another, crewing company in another, your actually flying out of another one and your resident somewhere else.
The job is being made redundant not the person.
So if they make someone redundant and then fill the position with someone else within 1 year then the person who is made redundant can then start legal proceedings.
BALPA will be stuck in the middle as well. The senior pilots wanting it to be LIFO and back fill Q400 slots, the pilots who would now be kicked out will be saying hang on that's illegal BALPA take them to court my job wasn't made redundant there is someone else doing it now.
however that isn't an option that is currently being offered...
If all airlines are just allowed to make people redundant at the drop of a hat every time they move or remove an airframe then none of us can sleep soundly in our beds at night can we?
Company ops , in one country, AOC in another, company owned and controlled in another, crewing company in another, your actually flying out of another one and your resident somewhere else.
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I am an at risk year 7 Dash SFO. As I understand it they cannot make a person redundant, but a position. If they make me redundant and then fill my position with an EJet pilot then they will definitely have litigation on their hands.
The whole thing is a sorry mess caused by inept and greedy directors and we are here suffering the consequences. The upshot is I do not want anyone to lose their jobs and it is an absolute travesty that the top end chaps on the seniority list are losing their jobs whilst pilots who have only been here for a year or so are keeping theirs but I'm not going to stick my hand in the air and say get rid of me when I have a mortgage and children to feed, why would I?
As for our contract stating that LIFO is to be used, well I think unfortunately employment law has moved on since our contracts were written so I am not sure what water they would hold in a court of law. Time will tell.
The whole thing is a sorry mess caused by inept and greedy directors and we are here suffering the consequences. The upshot is I do not want anyone to lose their jobs and it is an absolute travesty that the top end chaps on the seniority list are losing their jobs whilst pilots who have only been here for a year or so are keeping theirs but I'm not going to stick my hand in the air and say get rid of me when I have a mortgage and children to feed, why would I?
As for our contract stating that LIFO is to be used, well I think unfortunately employment law has moved on since our contracts were written so I am not sure what water they would hold in a court of law. Time will tell.
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All this talk about following policy f etc is a total waste of time. It simply is never going to happen. If the company were to follow its policies to the letter then it would end up having someone like desk-pilot retrained through an entire type rating on the dash 8 (sorry but a quick sim ride isn't going to do it for everyone) then on your current salary plus relocation allowance go and take some dash fo's job in another base. So potentially £80k+ Dash FO.
The real fight for Balpa should be the pathetic redundancy pay. It is a million miles away from acceptable. Face it the jobs are going you are probably about to be made redundant and as such you should be compensated appropriately. Desk pilot there are some job opportunities for jet pilots go and explore them instead of trying to take a poor dash first officers job?
2014 10 E175
36 Q400
People don't appreciate what a mess this is Flybe still has an un completed order of 35 E175's and all its managed to do with them is park them up in the West Country. Unbelievable.
The real fight for Balpa should be the pathetic redundancy pay. It is a million miles away from acceptable. Face it the jobs are going you are probably about to be made redundant and as such you should be compensated appropriately. Desk pilot there are some job opportunities for jet pilots go and explore them instead of trying to take a poor dash first officers job?
2014 10 E175
36 Q400
People don't appreciate what a mess this is Flybe still has an un completed order of 35 E175's and all its managed to do with them is park them up in the West Country. Unbelievable.
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As has been mentioned the same thing happened at bmi baby, where the redundancy by LIFO was in the contract and was ignored, and BALPA didn't help those who were made redundant by base and seat.
If a junior pilot takes flybe to court for unfair dismissal because a senior pilot is given their position Flybe will lose. If a senior pilot takes them to court for ignoring LIFO they might lose, but it is unlikely if they have complied with all the requirements of employment law, which they almost certainly have.
Unfortunately BALPA should have negotiated redundancy policies before they were needed, now is probably to late.
Good luck to all.
If a junior pilot takes flybe to court for unfair dismissal because a senior pilot is given their position Flybe will lose. If a senior pilot takes them to court for ignoring LIFO they might lose, but it is unlikely if they have complied with all the requirements of employment law, which they almost certainly have.
Unfortunately BALPA should have negotiated redundancy policies before they were needed, now is probably to late.
Good luck to all.
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So much mis-information, arcdu, the company would not win given the scenario you mention, why would they? There is no such thing in the airline industry or at least in flybe, where a seat is made redundant, what nonsense.
As has already been stated, everyone knows when you sign up that your career will be ruled by seniority, so when it comes to cuts, it has to be seniority, age discrimination would not be an issue either because there is no age discrimination in employment in the first place, not all new starts are 21 yrs of age!
Make older folks redundant and there certainly would be grounds for legal action and the company would lose, they know this and would rather pay out than use that paltry amount to retrain and/or offer part time contracts.
The other point is is, the pools which will be formed, will be mainly LIFO, so again that must be acceptable to the companies legal peeps.
It's a mess, but the company will blink first, Balpa are f'ing useless and the CC even worse but they will revel in the hero worship.
As has already been stated, everyone knows when you sign up that your career will be ruled by seniority, so when it comes to cuts, it has to be seniority, age discrimination would not be an issue either because there is no age discrimination in employment in the first place, not all new starts are 21 yrs of age!
Make older folks redundant and there certainly would be grounds for legal action and the company would lose, they know this and would rather pay out than use that paltry amount to retrain and/or offer part time contracts.
The other point is is, the pools which will be formed, will be mainly LIFO, so again that must be acceptable to the companies legal peeps.
It's a mess, but the company will blink first, Balpa are f'ing useless and the CC even worse but they will revel in the hero worship.
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Is BALPA fit for purpose?
NO!
They were well versed in this problem 4/5 years ago when Baby went through the same thing.
The PN was the same PN for Baby as Flybe had until recent times, your CC would have or should have known about this years ago, the PN definitely did!
The PN and CC should have negotiated a new redundancy policy years ago, that was acceptable to both fleets and all on the seniority system. Then it would have come as no surprise.
Whilst I completely agree with comments over why you are being made redundant, greed etc.... In this instance BALPA and no one else is responsible for allowing an outdated and questionable policy ( due to new laws) to remain for so long after it became clear it wouldn't work.
Another thought, do you think BALPA would risk being sued by pilots from other companies who were made redundant under a matrix system just to protect LIFO in Flybe ?
Gentleman / Ladies BALPA have yet again failed to act in good time and let you all down.
NO!
They were well versed in this problem 4/5 years ago when Baby went through the same thing.
The PN was the same PN for Baby as Flybe had until recent times, your CC would have or should have known about this years ago, the PN definitely did!
The PN and CC should have negotiated a new redundancy policy years ago, that was acceptable to both fleets and all on the seniority system. Then it would have come as no surprise.
Whilst I completely agree with comments over why you are being made redundant, greed etc.... In this instance BALPA and no one else is responsible for allowing an outdated and questionable policy ( due to new laws) to remain for so long after it became clear it wouldn't work.
Another thought, do you think BALPA would risk being sued by pilots from other companies who were made redundant under a matrix system just to protect LIFO in Flybe ?
Gentleman / Ladies BALPA have yet again failed to act in good time and let you all down.
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BALPA. . .an "old boys club", and in certain companies (thinking the one from 5 years ago) members of the same "club" as management.
When asked to grow a pair (thinking supporting IALPA against the blue/yellow Harp here ) about as resilient as a chocolate teapot.
I fear Flybe are about to join the others in the "admirers club" formed by ex BMI/Dan Air etc etc pilots that have been sold down the road over the years.
When asked to grow a pair (thinking supporting IALPA against the blue/yellow Harp here ) about as resilient as a chocolate teapot.
I fear Flybe are about to join the others in the "admirers club" formed by ex BMI/Dan Air etc etc pilots that have been sold down the road over the years.
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BALPA
BALPA...
In my hour of 'need' some months ago...I personally felt very let down indeed by BALPA at that time.
Mine was a complex, medical related issue but I felt that I was very much left to fend for myself in certain areas.
I only received advice between meetings and when the company negotiator was out on the road, using his hands-free car kit!
When the company final offer letter arrived, BALPA responded on a whimper...I was not 100% guaranteed to WIN any tribunal, so I can only assume that I was filed in the 'Too Difficult' in-tray.
I contacted BALPA General Secretary (without reply) stating how let down I felt...I thankfully kept my position and have not looked back after commencing appropriate medication earlier this year, with the full support of UK CAA Medical Division.
I continue to be a 'month-to-month' member of BALPA and I have been very impressed with our new negotiator thus far, after a one-to-one meeting with him recently. Things appear to have improved recently including a newly formed CC.
Good Luck to all at BE, you have our sympathies.
In my hour of 'need' some months ago...I personally felt very let down indeed by BALPA at that time.
Mine was a complex, medical related issue but I felt that I was very much left to fend for myself in certain areas.
I only received advice between meetings and when the company negotiator was out on the road, using his hands-free car kit!
When the company final offer letter arrived, BALPA responded on a whimper...I was not 100% guaranteed to WIN any tribunal, so I can only assume that I was filed in the 'Too Difficult' in-tray.
I contacted BALPA General Secretary (without reply) stating how let down I felt...I thankfully kept my position and have not looked back after commencing appropriate medication earlier this year, with the full support of UK CAA Medical Division.
I continue to be a 'month-to-month' member of BALPA and I have been very impressed with our new negotiator thus far, after a one-to-one meeting with him recently. Things appear to have improved recently including a newly formed CC.
Good Luck to all at BE, you have our sympathies.
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Leg
Call it misinformation if you like, but as sjm stated this happened before at bmi baby. Captains, of which I was one, were made redundant because our positions were no longer needed, whilst first officers in the same bases and captains and first officers at other bases, who were below us on the seniority list, retained their jobs.
So once again, it is a position which is made redundant not a person, under uk employment law, so if flybe make q400 pilots redundant they cannot then give Q400 left or right seats at those bases to more senior pilots, if they did they would lose in court.
It happened in bmi baby and BALPA did not offer any assistance to take the company to court for those made redundant with disregard to seniority, because they did not believe they could win. And in that case LIFO was written into the pilots contract.
As I said, balpa should have been negotiating a redundancy policy whilst business was good and the company making money, the basic rule of negotiation is to negotiate from a position of strength, and at the moment BALPA are not in that strong position.
Call it misinformation if you like, but as sjm stated this happened before at bmi baby. Captains, of which I was one, were made redundant because our positions were no longer needed, whilst first officers in the same bases and captains and first officers at other bases, who were below us on the seniority list, retained their jobs.
So once again, it is a position which is made redundant not a person, under uk employment law, so if flybe make q400 pilots redundant they cannot then give Q400 left or right seats at those bases to more senior pilots, if they did they would lose in court.
It happened in bmi baby and BALPA did not offer any assistance to take the company to court for those made redundant with disregard to seniority, because they did not believe they could win. And in that case LIFO was written into the pilots contract.
As I said, balpa should have been negotiating a redundancy policy whilst business was good and the company making money, the basic rule of negotiation is to negotiate from a position of strength, and at the moment BALPA are not in that strong position.
PPRuNe Secret Agent!
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This may be harsh but....
Have to agree with mad_jock - Welcome to a new world...
The company will have a law firm behind them all the way, those of you with "at risk" letters, get your head round this is happening - BALPA/Legal Action/Loyalty moans/Training costs...forget it! Put your effort into looking at your job options...
Thomson made me redundant in 2010, only 8 months after transferring me from the B756 to B737, I've had all the same thoughts as those mentioned here and never been a BALPA member since nor will I ever!
Personally, I think the industry has got worse since, my expectations have never been lower and I've never been so uninspired by recent management I've experienced and some cadets I've met - in nearly 4 years to the day of exiting Thomson, I'll be joining a secure airline with career options and a career package for someone with my experience, but it has come with some large compromises that I've just had to suck-up if I wanna be a pilot in the UK!
Welcome to a new world... - IMHO, it's one where BALPA is just old news and out-dated...but protect yourselves, they will do nothing!
The company will have a law firm behind them all the way, those of you with "at risk" letters, get your head round this is happening - BALPA/Legal Action/Loyalty moans/Training costs...forget it! Put your effort into looking at your job options...
Thomson made me redundant in 2010, only 8 months after transferring me from the B756 to B737, I've had all the same thoughts as those mentioned here and never been a BALPA member since nor will I ever!
Personally, I think the industry has got worse since, my expectations have never been lower and I've never been so uninspired by recent management I've experienced and some cadets I've met - in nearly 4 years to the day of exiting Thomson, I'll be joining a secure airline with career options and a career package for someone with my experience, but it has come with some large compromises that I've just had to suck-up if I wanna be a pilot in the UK!
Welcome to a new world... - IMHO, it's one where BALPA is just old news and out-dated...but protect yourselves, they will do nothing!
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As others have said Bmibaby opened this can of worms 5 yrs ago! BALPA has known it would rear its head again at some point. The LIFO issue created a bit of a divide and a lot of BALPA members left to join the IPA. A quick search on pprune will show the thread and all the discussion points which I'm sure you guys at risk in Flybe may be interested in. Sorry cant remember the title of the thread maybe sjm can?
BALPA is pointless unless you are in BA! IMHO.
Having been under threat of redundancy many times with bmi/baby, and then finally getting made redundant last year, BALPA not much use then either!!!My thoughts are with you all best of luck! Sh#tty thing to go through before Xmas!
BALPA is pointless unless you are in BA! IMHO.
Having been under threat of redundancy many times with bmi/baby, and then finally getting made redundant last year, BALPA not much use then either!!!My thoughts are with you all best of luck! Sh#tty thing to go through before Xmas!
Last edited by Budar; 8th Dec 2013 at 14:16. Reason: Spelling
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The anti-BALPA rhetoric is very en vogue but is totally mis-guided IMHO.
The effectiveness of BALPA at any particular airline boils down to its support from the pilots therein. Thats the way it works.
However, most pilots are too bloody blind to what is going on in the world outside their own airline to realise that they need to be setting the agenda rather than reacting to it.
Blaming BALPA is just dodging your personal responsibility for the s**t we're in.
The out-dated-ness of LIFO has been apparent since at least 2008.
It doesn't matter whether its FlyBe or BA, unless the law changes or a precedent is set, anyone sitting around thinking in a redundancy scenario they're safe because they're at the top of the pile is living in cloud cuckoo land.
The FlyBe situation is a s**t sandwich but it is not a surprise. Nor should it be to any other pilot sitting around with an industrial agreement saying redundancies will be conducted using LIFO.
Just like the FTL issue, perhaps pilots are gradually waking up to the reality that, regardless of which airline we work for, if we can all respect each other, stop thinking of just ourselves and our own "little" airline, stick together, we'd all be better off.
I'm laughing into my soup as we speak.
The effectiveness of BALPA at any particular airline boils down to its support from the pilots therein. Thats the way it works.
However, most pilots are too bloody blind to what is going on in the world outside their own airline to realise that they need to be setting the agenda rather than reacting to it.
Blaming BALPA is just dodging your personal responsibility for the s**t we're in.
The out-dated-ness of LIFO has been apparent since at least 2008.
It doesn't matter whether its FlyBe or BA, unless the law changes or a precedent is set, anyone sitting around thinking in a redundancy scenario they're safe because they're at the top of the pile is living in cloud cuckoo land.
The FlyBe situation is a s**t sandwich but it is not a surprise. Nor should it be to any other pilot sitting around with an industrial agreement saying redundancies will be conducted using LIFO.
Just like the FTL issue, perhaps pilots are gradually waking up to the reality that, regardless of which airline we work for, if we can all respect each other, stop thinking of just ourselves and our own "little" airline, stick together, we'd all be better off.
I'm laughing into my soup as we speak.
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I am shocked by the previous page of posts. I didn't take the time to read all of the BMI stuff, so had no historical knowledge of what a crock of cR@p industrial law is in the YOOKay.
So, no point to be in BALPA if it all goes t!Ts up, and even more demonstrates what a "joke" the idea that you owe some "loyalty" to any company using your services . . as it is quite obviously a one-way-street.
So, no point to be in BALPA if it all goes t!Ts up, and even more demonstrates what a "joke" the idea that you owe some "loyalty" to any company using your services . . as it is quite obviously a one-way-street.
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BALPA is definitely not fit for purpose. There's a lot of good work that goes on no doubt but that gets tarnished with the corruption that exists within it. If BALPA was fit for purpose we wouldn't be witnessing the mass exodus of Virgin Atlantic pilots who've rushed to set up their own union. Just look at what went on with the openskies debacle and say no more.
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The matrix system was used by Ezy some years ago when they made some cabin crew redundant. The CC took the company to court and won, Dont have the details but it is not simple.
To make anybody redundant cost money, would it be worth asking Flybe management to contact Ezy on your behalf and rather than pay redundancy put these funds to paying for your type rating and a position with us.
I appreciate there are many hurdles to cross applications etc but the bottom line Ezy are recruiting. Unfortunately this would mean not so many cadets but to fair most line Captains would prefer a few more experienced pilots.
I am also aware of the pilots in the holding pool,however I would image most of these pilots at least do have a job at present and would at the worst just delay your start date.
I for one would look forward to flying with you guys. Good luck
To make anybody redundant cost money, would it be worth asking Flybe management to contact Ezy on your behalf and rather than pay redundancy put these funds to paying for your type rating and a position with us.
I appreciate there are many hurdles to cross applications etc but the bottom line Ezy are recruiting. Unfortunately this would mean not so many cadets but to fair most line Captains would prefer a few more experienced pilots.
I am also aware of the pilots in the holding pool,however I would image most of these pilots at least do have a job at present and would at the worst just delay your start date.
I for one would look forward to flying with you guys. Good luck