Rights as an Irish Contractor?
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2010
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From: Belgium
Rights as an Irish Contractor?
Hello all,
I was formerly working for Ryanair as a contract pilot through one of the brooker offices. Having found another job, I left them with less than the contractual 3 months notice on punishment of 5000euros if you don't give the 3 months.
They are now trying to claim the money with agressive letters and e-mails (no registered letter, so officially I didn't receive any of their claims).
I don't just want to pay them this amount of money because I think as a self employed contractor, you have certain rights. And on top of that, they can stop using my services from day 1 to day 2, whereas I, as the service provider should give them a full 3 months notice?
Anybody was in the same situation before? Any ideas as where to find information on my rights and wheter the contract is legal? Anybody knows any legal backup specialised in this kind of cases?
Thanks!
I was formerly working for Ryanair as a contract pilot through one of the brooker offices. Having found another job, I left them with less than the contractual 3 months notice on punishment of 5000euros if you don't give the 3 months.
They are now trying to claim the money with agressive letters and e-mails (no registered letter, so officially I didn't receive any of their claims).
I don't just want to pay them this amount of money because I think as a self employed contractor, you have certain rights. And on top of that, they can stop using my services from day 1 to day 2, whereas I, as the service provider should give them a full 3 months notice?
Anybody was in the same situation before? Any ideas as where to find information on my rights and wheter the contract is legal? Anybody knows any legal backup specialised in this kind of cases?
Thanks!
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,507
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From: last time I looked I was still here.
Why not just threaten to allow the case to go to court. That way the contract will be scrutinised under a legal beady eye and most likely exposed to be what many allege it to be, i.e. that of an employee. They wont want that scrutiny and so I'd expect the letters to cease.
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Eesh. I'm not familiar with Irish law but out here, regardless of whether you liked the terms and conditions, you'd be in breach of the contract and likely to not only have a court order you to pay the 5000, but other forms of relief the Judge deemed fit plus could be liable for expenses for the other party.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: earth
Back in the good old days of bonding many of us left airlines without paying them back.
All of those contractual bonds that I am aware having been pursued in courts ended in nothing and nobody ever paid anything.
If you want to talk legal then the first thing to determine is which court is responsible for the case and you might be surprised to find out that very often it is not the court stated in the contract but the court where the facts actually took place.
In the case of a company like ryanair it would most probably be a court of the country where you were based before resigning as stated in the 2007 Lugano Convention.
Then of course the law of that state applies regardless of what it is stated in your contract as defined by another EU treaty like the Convention of Rome.
At this point I seriously doubt ryanair will risk a curt case they will loose, especially because the law system of any country but Ireland would slap them hard.
All of those contractual bonds that I am aware having been pursued in courts ended in nothing and nobody ever paid anything.
If you want to talk legal then the first thing to determine is which court is responsible for the case and you might be surprised to find out that very often it is not the court stated in the contract but the court where the facts actually took place.
In the case of a company like ryanair it would most probably be a court of the country where you were based before resigning as stated in the 2007 Lugano Convention.
Then of course the law of that state applies regardless of what it is stated in your contract as defined by another EU treaty like the Convention of Rome.
At this point I seriously doubt ryanair will risk a curt case they will loose, especially because the law system of any country but Ireland would slap them hard.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7
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From: Belgium
Contract clause
Thanks for the inputs guys, I am still looking out how to make things come in my advantage if it were to go to court.
e.g.
The contract clause states: The Contractor or the EC may terminate this Contract by giving not less than 3 months’ written notice to the
other parties. In the event that the EC purports to terminate this Contract upon less than 3 months’ notice, then
the EC shall pay to the Contractor the sum of €5,000, such sum being payable as liquidated and ascertained
damages by the EC to the Contractor in full and final settlement and satisfaction of the EC’s entire liability for
any loss, damages, costs or expenses suffered or incurred by the Contractor arising from such event.
Would they have to prove that they had actual damages by my leaving? Which is doubtful since a recent memo stated that we had a hiring stop and more than enough first officers to cover everything.
On top of that, I was based in MAD, a base that was just reducing their fleet and I would have been sent to Weeze as a solution.
e.g.
The contract clause states: The Contractor or the EC may terminate this Contract by giving not less than 3 months’ written notice to the
other parties. In the event that the EC purports to terminate this Contract upon less than 3 months’ notice, then
the EC shall pay to the Contractor the sum of €5,000, such sum being payable as liquidated and ascertained
damages by the EC to the Contractor in full and final settlement and satisfaction of the EC’s entire liability for
any loss, damages, costs or expenses suffered or incurred by the Contractor arising from such event.
Would they have to prove that they had actual damages by my leaving? Which is doubtful since a recent memo stated that we had a hiring stop and more than enough first officers to cover everything.
On top of that, I was based in MAD, a base that was just reducing their fleet and I would have been sent to Weeze as a solution.
Joined: Jul 2012
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From: huj
At this point I seriously doubt ryanair will risk a court case they will lose, especially because the law system of any country but Ireland would slap them hard.
Either write back and tell them to get lost or ignore them. The only reason they're bothering to pursue it all is because they don't want everyone walking out at a moment's notice.
I very much doubt your the first to do this and you won't be the last.
Last edited by bluecode; 23rd April 2013 at 09:50.
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10
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From: uk
When I left RYR I asked if I could be released of contractual duties a little early. I was getting married so it seemed logical and I was owed leave anyway (and before you ask they had refused to grant my wedding day as leave!!). They declined and immediately threatened me with legal action. I pointed out that my Sim check was due in my last month which they said was not an issue. Sure enough 2 days before my sim and 3 weeks before my 3 month was up my roster was wiped clean and I was told I could leave early. Funny how that was the case when they realised they were spending money putting me through the sim. €€€€ is the only language they understand. I wouldn't work for Brookfield again,they simply bark the orders and pass on the threats from RYR management with a distinct lack of care or compassion. I have told many new cadets about my experiences but it doesn't seem to put people off. Whilst people put up with the !!!!! they will continue to treat us like this. Expect to work your 3 months unless you know a cheap solicitor and are willing to take a gamble that they won't take it to court.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 829
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From: Newcastle NI
I read recently that the need to prove loss or damages were no longer relevant when it came to breach of contract, to be fair that was in a property rental case so it my be different.
I think the general theme here is correct, in any event is the contract actually with you or your company? Or do you have a separate contract with your employer, I know they have use a solicitor in Leeds in the past, but a bit like the cowboys that issue parking tickets on private land they never go to court, a guy I know paid them £2400 and in the end said enough is enough.
If you actually gave them3 months notice what would happen? I'm told you'd be put on stdby for 3 month ie no pay?
But hey ho great training and in my view I'd take a walk and see them in court, if you've no brass apply FR legal aid and write to all the newspapers with your case explaining how you were employed?you weren't how much tax & NI you paid.
Treat others how they treat you is my motto
I think the general theme here is correct, in any event is the contract actually with you or your company? Or do you have a separate contract with your employer, I know they have use a solicitor in Leeds in the past, but a bit like the cowboys that issue parking tickets on private land they never go to court, a guy I know paid them £2400 and in the end said enough is enough.
If you actually gave them3 months notice what would happen? I'm told you'd be put on stdby for 3 month ie no pay?
But hey ho great training and in my view I'd take a walk and see them in court, if you've no brass apply FR legal aid and write to all the newspapers with your case explaining how you were employed?you weren't how much tax & NI you paid.
Treat others how they treat you is my motto
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3
Likes: 5
From: Wor Yerm
Were you personally working for the agency or were you working for a limited liability company (ie. your alter ego) who in turn was working for the agency? If it was the latter, your company needs to be wound up pronto. The reason is that you are not your company, you are two separate legal entities. Your company is liable, not you.
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: I wish I knew
If RYR take you to court, and they may well do, it is not the whether you win or loose it is the cost of defending the action, you may get some outfit "no win, no fee" but it is highly unlikely, RYR know this, they have their own legal people and it costs them nothing to serve you but it costs you a lot to defend it... now, for all those"just ignore it brigade", if you get an ex-partie judgement against you it is a blur on your credit rating and a swine to overturn.. unless.. yes you guessed it.. you pay up! I wonder if the boot was on the other foot and any company, not just RYR terminated a contract early, wouldn't you demand compensation.. just to add a touch of balance to the argument.. And for the LTD Company issue,, do you honestly believe the courts will swallow this? it's a " shadow directorship" and you cannot be " self employed" in a company of which you are a director.. trying to defend this is like killing your granny and then changing your name.. it's still the same old you.. probably best to try and negotiate a solution, even if it's 50 euros a month for 100 months.. this looks much better if it ends up in the dock " shows willing" Ma'lud..
Joined: Apr 2010
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 400
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From: Utopia
Pieter,
Firstly, congratulations for escaping Ryanair/Brookfield!
I think we flew together from BLQ base back in 2011.
I too have recently made a 'non-standard departure' from Brookfield/Ryanair, and they are persuing me in the same manner. So, you are certainly not the first, and for sure, will not be the last. Funny thing is that not for one second do they pause to think why guys are doing this, and what could they do to stop it....of course they will not bother all the time they are making a profit out of recruiting cadets...but that's another thread entirely.
What I would say is to speak with IALPA. They will tell you that there is a queue of about 30 court cases, between Brookfield and ex Ryanair Pilots to be heard in the UK at the moment. They are waiting to see the result of one case, which is being treated as a test case for all the others. Whatever the ruling on this test case, will probably influence all the others, so there is alot riding upon it. I'm told that the judge is an ex-employment contract law expert and has already been asking Mr Declan Dooney some searching questions relating to the Brookfield contract in it's entirety, not just the notice clause. We all know the contract is tenuously legal at best, as it is so far skewed towards the benefit of Brookfield and Ryanair, but who can call at this stage if justice will prevail?
Solicitors will prove to be very expensive, but consult one if you can. But please speak to IALPA. The more people they know about, the more they can paint a picture of the reality of this contract.
If Brookfield put any form of pressure on you regarding this payment. I would merely advise them, that you are aware of the test case in London, and will communicate with them further, once the ruling has been made, probably within the next couple of weeks.
Firstly, congratulations for escaping Ryanair/Brookfield!
I think we flew together from BLQ base back in 2011.
I too have recently made a 'non-standard departure' from Brookfield/Ryanair, and they are persuing me in the same manner. So, you are certainly not the first, and for sure, will not be the last. Funny thing is that not for one second do they pause to think why guys are doing this, and what could they do to stop it....of course they will not bother all the time they are making a profit out of recruiting cadets...but that's another thread entirely.
What I would say is to speak with IALPA. They will tell you that there is a queue of about 30 court cases, between Brookfield and ex Ryanair Pilots to be heard in the UK at the moment. They are waiting to see the result of one case, which is being treated as a test case for all the others. Whatever the ruling on this test case, will probably influence all the others, so there is alot riding upon it. I'm told that the judge is an ex-employment contract law expert and has already been asking Mr Declan Dooney some searching questions relating to the Brookfield contract in it's entirety, not just the notice clause. We all know the contract is tenuously legal at best, as it is so far skewed towards the benefit of Brookfield and Ryanair, but who can call at this stage if justice will prevail?
Solicitors will prove to be very expensive, but consult one if you can. But please speak to IALPA. The more people they know about, the more they can paint a picture of the reality of this contract.
If Brookfield put any form of pressure on you regarding this payment. I would merely advise them, that you are aware of the test case in London, and will communicate with them further, once the ruling has been made, probably within the next couple of weeks.
Last edited by 737 Jockey; 25th April 2013 at 07:42.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,191
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From: lancs.UK
One has to ask why you do not approach your trade-organisation (IALPA / BALPA/ other?)
What? you didn't think it was worth the fees?
WAKEY WAKEY....All you Aircrew who don't join a professional body and pay your dues....It's OK to say "they'll do the job, with or without my few quid"...but that's not how it works! It's unfair and immoral to sponge off the backs of your colleagues who DO pay their dues.
To the OP...Ignire the bullying letters, Court documents are the only ones to worry about and it's highly unlikely" they" want the spotlight turned in the direction of these somewhat dubious "contracting" practises.
What? you didn't think it was worth the fees?
WAKEY WAKEY....All you Aircrew who don't join a professional body and pay your dues....It's OK to say "they'll do the job, with or without my few quid"...but that's not how it works! It's unfair and immoral to sponge off the backs of your colleagues who DO pay their dues.
To the OP...Ignire the bullying letters, Court documents are the only ones to worry about and it's highly unlikely" they" want the spotlight turned in the direction of these somewhat dubious "contracting" practises.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 116
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From: .
Are the outstanding court cases relating to the 5k notice period fine, or a variety of things?
What is the deal with IR35 legislation (masked employment) are there any pilots being investigated by the tax man? In other industries as a contractor being contracted to one company for more than 2-3 years can often raise eyebrows at HMRC. However, things may be different in Ireland.
What is the deal with IR35 legislation (masked employment) are there any pilots being investigated by the tax man? In other industries as a contractor being contracted to one company for more than 2-3 years can often raise eyebrows at HMRC. However, things may be different in Ireland.
