Italian tax authority after Ryanair pilots
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So the reaction of the Italian state is to try to get Ryanair into court for aledged tax charges in an attempt to get some of this money to help prop up the endebted govenment. If this was such a moral issue why was it not started years back when Ryanair started bases in Italy ?
The french investigation that caused Ryanair to close its Marseille base started sometimes in 2009 and the first court hearing is at the end of this month, I am told the same goes for Italy with crew room raids dating back to 2009 with tax penalties arriving as we speak and the first court hearing for the social security scam sometimes in February.
I am any sort of supporter of MOL, I don't like the product, I don't like the way he treats he's staff and I would not work for him.
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The rush for justice !
So if you are correct the Italian authorities raided Ryanair in 2009 and have taken until 2013 yet it is still to come before a court ! Not exactly the finest hour of the Italian justice system..........
If this as the simple open and shut care that you seem to think why has it taken so long ?
My guess is that until the financial crisis hit Italy there was no political will to take this case on, now that the cash is running out the govenment needs the money and so they act.
Dannyagilla you seem so sure that Ryanair will loose this case, have you considered the consequences of them winning ? Prehaps the italian authorities have considered this outcome and have been reluctant to persue course of action until the political pressure from above has forced their hand, maybe this is why it has been so slow to come to court ?
Finaly what do you think the chances are of the Italian courts getting this sorted in 2013 ? If I was a betting man I would have a few quid on this dragging on well past 2015 !
If this as the simple open and shut care that you seem to think why has it taken so long ?
My guess is that until the financial crisis hit Italy there was no political will to take this case on, now that the cash is running out the govenment needs the money and so they act.
Dannyagilla you seem so sure that Ryanair will loose this case, have you considered the consequences of them winning ? Prehaps the italian authorities have considered this outcome and have been reluctant to persue course of action until the political pressure from above has forced their hand, maybe this is why it has been so slow to come to court ?
Finaly what do you think the chances are of the Italian courts getting this sorted in 2013 ? If I was a betting man I would have a few quid on this dragging on well past 2015 !
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A&C
It is now clear that you update yourself reading only junk sunday newspapers , as you show a lack even of the most basic understanding of the political and judicial system of a Country foreign to you,which you posing as a connoisseur.
The Italian judicial system has pursued for many years the former Prime Minister, sometime even winning in the first round, and this happened despite his institutional positions. So, do you so really think that the Italian justice system can then be afraid or shy of MOL? Come on, show us a little bit of your residual intelligence!
You fail to be aware that the Italian justice system has , in the first step of the investigation , nothing to do with the tax system. Following an assessment of GdF, unless it is a blatant case of tax fraud, the Ministry of Finance is the entity which requires the payment of any back taxes .
Similarily , the initial ‘trial’ is handled not by the judicial system, but the tributary functions of the Ministry of Finance , which impose to pay due taxes or unpaid back taxes.
I note ( but you noticed as well) that in post 62 it is written :
“The french investigation that caused Ryanair to close its Marseille base started sometimes in 2009 and the first court hearing is at the end of this month”
And this to me means that the French started in 2009 and will have a first court hearing
in jan-2013; but then you write:
“So if you are correct the Italian authorities raided Ryanair in 2009 and have taken until 2013 yet it is still to come before a court ! Not exactly the finest hour of the Italian justice system”
…. and this means that the Italians took exactly the same time span as the French to conclude the investigation..! So if “it is not the finest hour in the Italian justice system” , then I can correctly infer that “ it is not the finest hour in the French justice system “ as well .
But please, don’t be shy and do not stop to recommend better practices in the judicial system of other Countries, as this is an international forum and I suppose that many readers are enthusiastically waiting your opinions and suggestions on this topic.
A&C, if you just did knew just a little bit more about Italy than the bare minimum of 'spaghetti, pizza and mandolin', you would avoid yourself to make such a poor impression on a forum of professionals.
Did you a favor, mostly helpful for the remaining of your reputation – if any :stop telling bu...it on this forum, please, please !
It is now clear that you update yourself reading only junk sunday newspapers , as you show a lack even of the most basic understanding of the political and judicial system of a Country foreign to you,which you posing as a connoisseur.
The Italian judicial system has pursued for many years the former Prime Minister, sometime even winning in the first round, and this happened despite his institutional positions. So, do you so really think that the Italian justice system can then be afraid or shy of MOL? Come on, show us a little bit of your residual intelligence!
You fail to be aware that the Italian justice system has , in the first step of the investigation , nothing to do with the tax system. Following an assessment of GdF, unless it is a blatant case of tax fraud, the Ministry of Finance is the entity which requires the payment of any back taxes .
Similarily , the initial ‘trial’ is handled not by the judicial system, but the tributary functions of the Ministry of Finance , which impose to pay due taxes or unpaid back taxes.
I note ( but you noticed as well) that in post 62 it is written :
“The french investigation that caused Ryanair to close its Marseille base started sometimes in 2009 and the first court hearing is at the end of this month”
And this to me means that the French started in 2009 and will have a first court hearing
in jan-2013; but then you write:
“So if you are correct the Italian authorities raided Ryanair in 2009 and have taken until 2013 yet it is still to come before a court ! Not exactly the finest hour of the Italian justice system”
…. and this means that the Italians took exactly the same time span as the French to conclude the investigation..! So if “it is not the finest hour in the Italian justice system” , then I can correctly infer that “ it is not the finest hour in the French justice system “ as well .
But please, don’t be shy and do not stop to recommend better practices in the judicial system of other Countries, as this is an international forum and I suppose that many readers are enthusiastically waiting your opinions and suggestions on this topic.
A&C, if you just did knew just a little bit more about Italy than the bare minimum of 'spaghetti, pizza and mandolin', you would avoid yourself to make such a poor impression on a forum of professionals.
Did you a favor, mostly helpful for the remaining of your reputation – if any :stop telling bu...it on this forum, please, please !
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Not exactly fast
2009 to start a case that has not yet appeared in court, that is not exactly fast, for months now Dannyagilla has been telling us that Ryanair is in the wrong and are going to get a big fine for tax offenses.
So why is it taking so long for an open and shut case ?, as far as I can see it is due to the snail like pace of the Italian judicial system or the case is a lot more complicated than Dannyagilla is making out or may be a bit of both, with a bit of interference from vested interests.
I am sure that your comments on the subject will be interesting.
So why is it taking so long for an open and shut case ?, as far as I can see it is due to the snail like pace of the Italian judicial system or the case is a lot more complicated than Dannyagilla is making out or may be a bit of both, with a bit of interference from vested interests.
I am sure that your comments on the subject will be interesting.
Last edited by A and C; 23rd Jan 2013 at 14:38.
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A and C,
my comments on the subject are interesting because based on personal experience and fueled by ethics and morality, yours on the other hand are far from interesting mainly because lacking all of the above.
If you ever had anything to do with justice you might be aware that time is a major factor and a acse can take years, regardless of the latitude at which the court is located.
Are there political and economical agendas behind what is going on regarding Ryanair? Of course there are, just consider what it means having a player in your backyard that does not pay tax , does not pay social contributions , does take money from local airports or regional governments , does not abide by local labour laws and which ultimately poisons the market making fair competition a concept valid only in theory but in fact creating unemployment and poverty.
my comments on the subject are interesting because based on personal experience and fueled by ethics and morality, yours on the other hand are far from interesting mainly because lacking all of the above.
If you ever had anything to do with justice you might be aware that time is a major factor and a acse can take years, regardless of the latitude at which the court is located.
Are there political and economical agendas behind what is going on regarding Ryanair? Of course there are, just consider what it means having a player in your backyard that does not pay tax , does not pay social contributions , does take money from local airports or regional governments , does not abide by local labour laws and which ultimately poisons the market making fair competition a concept valid only in theory but in fact creating unemployment and poverty.
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Dannyagilla
You seem to be a bit confused as to the relationship between the law, ethics & morality. I have to tell you that the law has nothing to do with ethics and morality, it is just the law.
Of course you will hear those who consider them self to be the great and good of society preaching about ethics, morality and he law in the same breath but this is just so much bull.
There's no ethics and morality in a court room............ Just the law as it is written, quite often laws are drafted with one intention and interpreted in court in a very different way.
It will be interesting to see if the Italian tax laws ( that were no doubt drafted with the best of intentions) end up being interpreted in the way that was originally intended or will the Ryanair lawers manage to put another interpretation on them.
I will speculate the reason that the Italian courts are being so slow is that the authorities have seen a loophole that Ryanair can escape through and are trying to pull Ryanair into line without going to court, this would avoid the risk of loosing in court and achive the required objective. However I would suggest that playing games of brinkmanship with the likes of MOL is a high risk strategy.
Of course you will hear those who consider them self to be the great and good of society preaching about ethics, morality and he law in the same breath but this is just so much bull.
There's no ethics and morality in a court room............ Just the law as it is written, quite often laws are drafted with one intention and interpreted in court in a very different way.
It will be interesting to see if the Italian tax laws ( that were no doubt drafted with the best of intentions) end up being interpreted in the way that was originally intended or will the Ryanair lawers manage to put another interpretation on them.
I will speculate the reason that the Italian courts are being so slow is that the authorities have seen a loophole that Ryanair can escape through and are trying to pull Ryanair into line without going to court, this would avoid the risk of loosing in court and achive the required objective. However I would suggest that playing games of brinkmanship with the likes of MOL is a high risk strategy.
Last edited by A and C; 24th Jan 2013 at 09:22.
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A and C,
I think you ran out of bullets and reading your posts is really becoming a boring exercise of patience and babysitting.
Real people that are supposed to fly a 189 passenger plane are being prosecuted with huge fines while the company which set up this scam is not giving them any kind of support nor releasing any official statement as if nothing was going on.
Two separate court cases about the same illegal practices are about to start in two different countries but again the CEO prefers to rant about the greatness of his cheap airline while being vague and superficial about the seriousness of the allegations.
Employees of his airline testify anonymously across the whole continent for several media networks highlighting worrying work practices and describing a sick corporate culture while he happily talks about crap like paying for toilets or flying for free.
Reminds of the happy and carefree hours before the Titanic or the Costa cruise ship disasters...
I think you ran out of bullets and reading your posts is really becoming a boring exercise of patience and babysitting.
Real people that are supposed to fly a 189 passenger plane are being prosecuted with huge fines while the company which set up this scam is not giving them any kind of support nor releasing any official statement as if nothing was going on.
Two separate court cases about the same illegal practices are about to start in two different countries but again the CEO prefers to rant about the greatness of his cheap airline while being vague and superficial about the seriousness of the allegations.
Employees of his airline testify anonymously across the whole continent for several media networks highlighting worrying work practices and describing a sick corporate culture while he happily talks about crap like paying for toilets or flying for free.
Reminds of the happy and carefree hours before the Titanic or the Costa cruise ship disasters...
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Dannyagilla
Lets get this clear, it was my understanding from your posts that there are two cases going through the Italian courts one is the Italian Govenment trying to get the Social tax contribution from Ryanair on the grounds that these pilots are really employees rather than having the contractor status that Ryanair gives them.......it was on this I was commenting.
The second case was aimed at pilots who had not declared their income to the Italian tax authorities, it is hardly the fault of Ryanair if these pilots failed to tell the Italian tax man about their income.
As a self employed person I know that the tax people will come looking for their money and I make provision for this, is the real problem that some pilots have not made provision for tax and now don't have the cash to cover the tax bill ?
The second case was aimed at pilots who had not declared their income to the Italian tax authorities, it is hardly the fault of Ryanair if these pilots failed to tell the Italian tax man about their income.
As a self employed person I know that the tax people will come looking for their money and I make provision for this, is the real problem that some pilots have not made provision for tax and now don't have the cash to cover the tax bill ?
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A & C: the division between your 2 scenarios is very blurred. I believe the contention from the majority of 'contractors' is that they are employees. The first scenario you discuss may well prove that. If so then they should be PAYE employees. In that case the claim by any government for unpaid tax would be against the 'employer'. On behalf of all the victims I hope this grey area will be clarified asap.
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RAT 5
I think you are correct and it is operating in the " blurred " area is were MOL likes to be as it reduces the risks to him, I am guessing that the French laws are clearer than the Italian laws because Ryanair pulled out of France very quickly, probably because they know they would have lost the court case, perhaps it is there view that they have more chance of winning in Italy.
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A and C,
Here comes some more babysitting:
1- the Italian social security office is after Ryanair for not having paid social contributions to its EMPLOYEES in Italy but to Ireland instead and this is a court case
2- the Italian tax man is giving 60 days to Ryanair EMPLOYEES to pay taxes to Italy and not to Ireland (starting from 2006) based on the assumption that ryanair has a permanent establishment in Italy and this is not a court case unless the EMPLOYEES appeal the decision of the tax man and take the issue to court themselves.
And the contractors scandal hasn't even surfaced yet.
Here comes some more babysitting:
1- the Italian social security office is after Ryanair for not having paid social contributions to its EMPLOYEES in Italy but to Ireland instead and this is a court case
2- the Italian tax man is giving 60 days to Ryanair EMPLOYEES to pay taxes to Italy and not to Ireland (starting from 2006) based on the assumption that ryanair has a permanent establishment in Italy and this is not a court case unless the EMPLOYEES appeal the decision of the tax man and take the issue to court themselves.
And the contractors scandal hasn't even surfaced yet.
Rant on:
Let them take it to the European Human Rights court. I really wonder what those judges think about employing many contractors as if they were employees. Somehow I think the court will side more with the HUMAN side of the story (the contractors) than with the human rights of the Ryanair business model. It will be interesting and it will definitely provide some answers for a lot of international workers, not only in Ryanair.
Rant off.
Let them take it to the European Human Rights court. I really wonder what those judges think about employing many contractors as if they were employees. Somehow I think the court will side more with the HUMAN side of the story (the contractors) than with the human rights of the Ryanair business model. It will be interesting and it will definitely provide some answers for a lot of international workers, not only in Ryanair.
Rant off.
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B738driver
Thank you for that post it was clear, well presented and thankfully lacked the emotionally driven agenda of some on this forum.
It would seem that Ryanair have found a way around the French tax system by basing the crews outside France rather than in France ( if I understand you correctly). My statement about Ryanair pulling out of France was intended to indicate that crews no longer had base in France. This policy can only be a result of Ryanair knowing they don't have a chance of making the crew business model work under French law.
I can only speculate that they think that they can make things work in Italy for a few more years by stringing along the Italian and then the EU justice system.
There is little doubt that the self employed status of the crews is sailing very close to the wind in most EU states and totaly contravenes the law in some states but MOL has picked the places he operates from carefully for his advantage.
As the Ryanair abuse of the self employed tax system is EU wide we have to ask why the EU states have not acted together to stop this cross border tax evasion ?
My guess is that it is a vote looser to be seen as the politician who stops the cheap flights, this is a very pragmatic attitude after all these aircraft are bringing in the tourists to some areas and the cheap workers to others, getting a few € more from Ryanair in taxes may well have the unintended effect of removing a lot of money from some areas. You can also add to this the Irish state that is getting a tax income from a Europe wide company in return for very little in the way of financial outgoings.
It would seem that Ryanair have found a way around the French tax system by basing the crews outside France rather than in France ( if I understand you correctly). My statement about Ryanair pulling out of France was intended to indicate that crews no longer had base in France. This policy can only be a result of Ryanair knowing they don't have a chance of making the crew business model work under French law.
I can only speculate that they think that they can make things work in Italy for a few more years by stringing along the Italian and then the EU justice system.
There is little doubt that the self employed status of the crews is sailing very close to the wind in most EU states and totaly contravenes the law in some states but MOL has picked the places he operates from carefully for his advantage.
As the Ryanair abuse of the self employed tax system is EU wide we have to ask why the EU states have not acted together to stop this cross border tax evasion ?
My guess is that it is a vote looser to be seen as the politician who stops the cheap flights, this is a very pragmatic attitude after all these aircraft are bringing in the tourists to some areas and the cheap workers to others, getting a few € more from Ryanair in taxes may well have the unintended effect of removing a lot of money from some areas. You can also add to this the Irish state that is getting a tax income from a Europe wide company in return for very little in the way of financial outgoings.
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A and C talking about outlaw self employment and EU wide tax evasion?????Wow B738driver you've made a miracle happen!!
The rest of his speculations are the usual and boring blame game where we should sympathize with an individual without any morals just because the EU is slow reacting.....pathetic.
Now what do you honestly think about a company that places crews in a foreign country with an Irish permanent contract and that gives no support whatsoever to them when they are faced with fines that basically zero their annual income?
Is it safe to have these people flying as we speak with such financial burden and no legal support?
The rest of his speculations are the usual and boring blame game where we should sympathize with an individual without any morals just because the EU is slow reacting.....pathetic.
Now what do you honestly think about a company that places crews in a foreign country with an Irish permanent contract and that gives no support whatsoever to them when they are faced with fines that basically zero their annual income?
Is it safe to have these people flying as we speak with such financial burden and no legal support?
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What is about Italians and tax? Why can't they take the tax they are supposed to be taking. A friend of mine working in Italy has 2 contracts, both drawn up and stamped by the advocate for his rental agreement on his apartment. 1 for 800 euro for the landlord, the other says he is renting just a room in the apartment for 200 euro and that is for the tax authorities. Cash is king in Italy.
Anyway enough, lets get down to facts. Ryanair employees in Italy are perfectly legal paying tax in Ireland. Article 21.3 of the dual tax agreement between the countries refers.
For the purposes of this Article, profits or remuneration arising from the exercise of a profession or employment in a Contracting State shall be deemed to be income from sources within that Contracting State, and the services of an individual whose services are wholly or mainly performed in ships or aircraft shall be deemed to be performed in the Contracting State in which the place of effective management of the enterprise is situated.
Effective management is Dublin, Ireland in this case. The Italian tax authorities signed this so print off a copy, send it back to the Italian tax man and tell him to - well that's up to you.
Anyway enough, lets get down to facts. Ryanair employees in Italy are perfectly legal paying tax in Ireland. Article 21.3 of the dual tax agreement between the countries refers.
For the purposes of this Article, profits or remuneration arising from the exercise of a profession or employment in a Contracting State shall be deemed to be income from sources within that Contracting State, and the services of an individual whose services are wholly or mainly performed in ships or aircraft shall be deemed to be performed in the Contracting State in which the place of effective management of the enterprise is situated.
Effective management is Dublin, Ireland in this case. The Italian tax authorities signed this so print off a copy, send it back to the Italian tax man and tell him to - well that's up to you.
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Dannyagilla
I am not advocating the end of self employment, just saying that the if the EU think that the Ryanair pilots are not self employed they should act accordingly.
Untill the EU decide to do so I will defend the right of anyone to be paid in any way that is within the law.
Untill the EU decide to do so I will defend the right of anyone to be paid in any way that is within the law.
Last edited by A and C; 25th Jan 2013 at 09:34.
Well done, 738, for rescuing the thread!
In the long run, the tax authorities will win, and the individuals will have to cough up, as will the employer for social security charges.
In the long run, the tax authorities will win, and the individuals will have to cough up, as will the employer for social security charges.
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Having had experience of the Italian Tax Authorities I would not mail anything to them - have a courier deliver it or better still have you lawyer arrange for someone legal locally to walk it in............
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B738driver,
Point 2 you described has already been pursued by a few FR employees and guess what? Didn't work.
Point 1 has been pursued by some but as far as I know there has been no support whatsoever from the company.
The focal point is about the concept of permanent establishment which activates or not the DTA; according to the Italians Ryanair has a permanent establishment in Italy therefore italian laws should have applied both tax and social security wise.
Lots of speculation in this thread and lots of personal opinions but so far there are a few facts which are quite serious and those are tax prosecutions for Ryanair employees and an upcoming court cases for unpaid social security.
But the most serious issue is the fact that the are pilots flying around under these kind of un-acceptable psychological pressures who are being left completely alone by the company that has put them into this kind of trouble.
Point 2 you described has already been pursued by a few FR employees and guess what? Didn't work.
Point 1 has been pursued by some but as far as I know there has been no support whatsoever from the company.
The focal point is about the concept of permanent establishment which activates or not the DTA; according to the Italians Ryanair has a permanent establishment in Italy therefore italian laws should have applied both tax and social security wise.
Lots of speculation in this thread and lots of personal opinions but so far there are a few facts which are quite serious and those are tax prosecutions for Ryanair employees and an upcoming court cases for unpaid social security.
But the most serious issue is the fact that the are pilots flying around under these kind of un-acceptable psychological pressures who are being left completely alone by the company that has put them into this kind of trouble.
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Dannyalliga
I can understand the Ryanair stance of not getting involved in the tax matters of what it considers to be contractors as this would be an admission that the people were employed and not contractors.........hardly what Ryanair wants.
What I can't understand is that you say the Italian tax authorities have been approached and won't accept evidence that the pilots had paid their tax in another EU state and are intent on pressing charges to recover the tax due on the pilots whole income and not just the difference between the Irish and Italian taxes.
Please correct me if I have misunderstood what you are saying.
What I can't understand is that you say the Italian tax authorities have been approached and won't accept evidence that the pilots had paid their tax in another EU state and are intent on pressing charges to recover the tax due on the pilots whole income and not just the difference between the Irish and Italian taxes.
Please correct me if I have misunderstood what you are saying.