Iberia to Lose 4500 jobs - 25 airframes

[Wirbelsturm]

Oh, a double pronged attack on a Sunday morning! Must be a slow day at Unite.

The facts are Wurvlsturn that you do not have a clue what went on in negotiations between the company and BASSA

Oh really? How can you be so sure? The facts were there to be read, also the rather puerile nature of the negotiating team was out in the public domain for all to see (as was the punch up with CC89 in the car park for daring to arrange a settlement with BA).

You haughtily comment on airlines like SAS and Alitalia regarding wage costs, but these airlines were not brought to their knees due to cabin crew pay. Your simplistic analysis does not bear scrutiny when you witness the profits BA have just announced, even though their Flight Crew are among the highest paid in the world.

Remind me again why ALL other departments within BA had to come up with cost savings? Why BA went through a long, drawn out process of re-negotiating all supply contracts, why BA re-negotiated fuel contracts, hotel suppliers, navigation fees, re-routed flights to avoid specific, high charging navigation sectors etc. etc. etc. Please explain why, after all those savings had been successfully negotiated, calculated and added into the business plan BASSA still feels that they were the only ones under the thumb? Two primary driving variable costs in BA, fuel and personnel. The whole airline took a cut except BASSA. You gained the status quo and condemned your members to a withering future with no new routes, promotions or aircraft. You kept your current pay though until you cease to exist which, with the growth of Mixed Fleet, won't be long. Which is a shame as those who you have so shamelessly led to the wall, the normal, hard working crew, are a nice bunch who deserved far better than BASSA gave them.

Once again the blinkered, self centred view that BASSA are the centre of the known universe comes to the fore. Sorry but the negotiations for the CC settlement were merely a small cog in a big machine. So much so that the company, it's board and the shareholders thought the IA costs for the short term were worth the savings in the long term.

Oh and look at the result, after a COMPANY WIDE savings initiative, the company is making a profit. What a surprise in my 'simplistic analysis' which, oddly enough, seems to be mirrored by the city with the share price on the up.

You are dead meat when Willie turns his attention to dealing with the huge endemic costs and waste of our Bidline, and the burgeoning liability of Flight Crew pay to the bottom line.

Most certainly not true and the ever present playground bully quote of 'you are dead meat' has been dealt with pages and pages before, keep up. Look at top line IB pay before claiming that BA are the highest paid. RTFQ.

It's surprises me that you continue to argue about BA when BA turned a profit and IB lost almost 1Bn Euro over the same period, yet continually you spout on about how nasty and over paid the pilots are in BA which is totally irrelevant. Change needs to come to IB. With a re-structuring of the IB business model then the 12% from BANKIA will be snapped up especially when coupled with the emergence of the recently merged AA/US Airways into the One World alliance.

Obviously in my bumpkin, simplistic view.

White with one Wonker.

[Watersidewonker]

Remind me again why ALL other departments within BA had to come up with cost savings? Why BA went through a long, drawn out process of re-negotiating all supply contracts, why BA re-negotiated fuel contracts, hotel suppliers, navigation fees, re-routed flights to avoid specific, high charging navigation sectors etc. etc. etc. Please explain why, after all those savings had been successfully negotiated, calculated and added into the business plan BASSA still feels that they were the only ones under the thumb?

All part of the simplistic master plan to make everyone within the company feel threatened and uneasy. Why would you believe your company was in a 'fight for survival' if your section wasn't cost cutting? Why would you volunteer to be cabin crew if you hadn't suffered a little? Why would you be asked to give up a months salary if your company wasn't nearly insolvent?
The failed master plan was to rid BA of BASSA for good - only 6000 intelligent problems were standing in his way. The master was so incandescent with rage when BASSA agreed to his financial demands that he ripped up the already directorate signed agreement and increased the figure - just to goad BASSA into strike action, as he believed there was so much more punch in his henchmen than in his subjects and the strike would die within a month maximum.
The cabin crew only wanted one wish granted - a contractual guarantee going forward, that they would be protected from the new fleet and have some sort of earnings guarantee, which they now have.
Such a simple attack strategy, straight out of 1990's USA. If only it had worked Wirby, your over inflated salary/pension would be that much safer.

[Count Niemantznarr]

Oh, a double pronged attack on a Sunday morning! Must be a slow day at Unite.


Now don't take things so personally Wibbly, we do like you really.

Wonker has eloquently emasculated the route causes of the conflict at BA with its cabin crew, and why BASSA and its members were forced to defend themselves against the assault by Walsh. Of course this version causes conflict with your own version of events. This is understandable, because as any psychologist would point out, you have to justify why you and many of your colleagues behaved as they did, serving drinks in BA aircraft cabins during the strike.

To be honest, I bear no malice at all towards BA flight crew for what they did, as they now have to live with their consciences. Selfishness and avarice are powerful motivators.

With the Iberia dispute, the usual clarion calls from the plebs that roam forums like these, or the comments section in the Telegraph, that Iberia employees have had it too good are rooted in ignorance, jealousy and envy. Anyone with a well paid job I suppose is expected to take an immediate pay cut so that they can be as miserable as those who do not have the protection of a union. BALPA of course is a union, a word that does not sit well with the elitists who fly commercial aircraft at BA. BALPA is also a member of the TUC. Surely it should leave such an organisation of the "bruvvers", being so alien in concept and purpose to BA pilots?

Iberia like the BA cabin crew dispute, is now in a fight to the death. After the destruction and misery wreaked at BA, Walsh was able to move on and the healing began. At Iberia, he has nowhere to go. The covenant on his reputation is about to be called in.

[Watersidewonker]

Of course this version causes conflict with your own version of events. This is understandable, because as any psychologist would point out, you have to justify why you and many of your colleagues behaved as they did

The problem we have are autistically infused views, a mental rejection of a view that does not appear to make sense. In a world of logics, figures and checklists it's incredibly difficult to get your head around a plan that goes against all reasoning.
It's impossible and beyond comprehension that a large corporation could manipulate figures, then use an employees fear and sense of insecurity to turn them on fellow colleagues with such venom.
Looking back, if the company had honoured BASSA's acceptance to save the amount first put to them and not increased it by £30 million pa, where would we be now? Yes £30 millions per year worse off but would have saved £180 millions that was spent on strikes and a massive amount of bad publicity, produced a good 'one team' working environment and a loyal workforce.
You have to ask yourself why? So very sad.

[GS-Alpha]

You have to ask yourself why?

I suppose there isn't really any need for you to understand why. The city understands perfectly, and judging by the share price rises they are expecting exactly the same win at Iberia. I read somewhere that IAG have €550m set aside for the battle. The Iberia unions can choose to cut off their noses to spite their faces if they so decide, but whether they are justified in their fight or not, they are not going to win against that kind of determination. BA's cabin crew had no chance of winning either. It doesn't matter what anyone thought about whether the attack was justified, fair or necessary. All that matters is the company wide cost savings were demanded and then they were achieved. Unfortunately for the effected Iberia employees, the same will happen in Spain.

By extension, any work group (including the BA pilots) that attempts to hang on to wildly above market rate terms and conditions going forwards, will have similar demands made of them, and with equal determination. In a company with lots of people doing the exact same job, such as within an airline, unions are necessary for collective negotiation and bargaining. However, gone are the days of unions holding companies to ransom.

[Watersidewonker]

A very reasoned posting GS-Alpha and completely agree.

The city understands perfectly

Of course they do. They were pre advised that the company would be using the 'fight for survival' mantra to fight the cabin crew, hence no knee jerk reaction to the share price.

I read somewhere that IAG have €550m set aside

Of course they have, but isn't this a 'fight for survival?

BA's cabin crew had no chance of winning either

Mmmm..depends what you mean. If you meant reaching an honourable agreement then that's exactly what they reached after 2 years - contractual guarantee going forward, protecting them from mixfleet. As for 'winning', did the company?

By extension, any work group (including the BA pilots) that attempts to hang on to wildly above market rate terms and conditions going forwards, will have similar demands made of them

Absolutely

However, gone are the days of unions holding companies to ransom

Totally agree

[Count Niemantznarr]

A lot of spin there in your post GS Alpha.

I think the days of unions holding any company to ransom are long gone. These days unions and their members are playing a defensive game, trying to protect T&C's from predatory and aggressive employers.

New employees, employed on far inferior contracts in my experience, don't tend to be so motivated or professional. As airlines cross international boundaries, what does 'Market Rate' mean anyway? Surely the market rate for pilots is a lot less in India than in the UK? Does that mean according to GS Alpha's logic, that a level playing field will not be found until airlines follow the route of cruise ship companies, who now crew their ships with customer contact staff from the Phillipines and third world countries?

Where does this race to the bottom end?

[GS-Alpha]

New employees, employed on far inferior contracts in my experience, don't tend to be so motivated or professional.

Your experience may well be correct, but if people running a company find that to be the case, and the motivation of its new employees is below that which they require, they can make decisions to improve that motivation.

In my experience, companies that have costs that are staggeringly above those of their competitors, wherever in the world they may be, go bust; slowly or quickly. BA were doing it slowly. Iberia appears to be doing it rather more quickly. For both companies, it was/is 'a fight for survival'.

[BlueUpGood]

Mmmm..depends what you mean. If you meant reaching an honourable agreement then that's exactly what they reached after 2 years - contractual guarantee going forward, protecting them from mixfleet. As for 'winning', did the company?

Sorry but there was nothing honourable about the dispute. There was no honourable agreement, merely a (failed) face saving spin exercise by BASSA, and there was nothing honourable about the massed ranks being used as cannon fodder to save the CSD's from the indignity of having to work a trolley. Thousands of crew have lost the prospect of a viable career all for the vanity of a handful of senior CSD's who also happened to be BASSA reps.

[Count Niemantznarr]

In the end Blue Up Good, however unpalatable you found it, the company had to negotiate and settle the dispute with its cabin crew.

Sure Mixed Fleet was formed to to justify all the angst and cost of the dispute, but apparently career progression is a bit of an illusion there as well these days so I am told.

On top of this CSD's have the technology to develop their roles via the iPad, BA are now going to take them out of the cabin service. It didn't save much money anyway compared to the impact on customer service.

If I was a BA First Officer like you, I would be much more concerned with my own career progression, which in your case is currently stalled by Fat Cat senior Captains earning around £200,000 a year. Of course this is what the dispute at Iberia is all about - excessive pay and getting to market rate.

[Shaman]

...senior Captains earning around £200,000 a year...

All I can say is "Well done BALPA"!

[BlueUpGood]

In the end Blue Up Good, however unpalatable you found it, the company had to negotiate and settle the dispute with its cabin crew.

Indeed they did, and BA showed tremendous patience waiting for Unite to finally step in and sideline Holley and co so they could start the process.

Sure Mixed Fleet was formed to justify all the angst and cost of the dispute, but apparently career progression is a bit of an illusion there as well these days so I am told.

Lost me there Count.. Are you suggesting Mixed Fleet don't have promotion?! Whoever is telling you doesn't know what they are talking about I'm afraid.

If I was a BA First Officer like you, I would be much more concerned with my own career progression, which in your case is currently stalled by Fat Cat senior Captains earning around £200,000 a year. Of course this is what the dispute at Iberia is all about - excessive pay and getting to market rate.

My career is going just fine thanks Count. Like most pilots I recognise that like it or not, T&C's and remuneration are a down hill slope in this day and age. The key is how steep and how fast, and the key to that is full engagement with the employer to find a mutually beneficial solution. That requires a democratic union that listens to and represents all it's members. As Keith Williams famously said, 'if you're not at the table you will be on the menu'.

At least BA pilots still have career progression, and have not had it pulled from under them by the abject failure of their union. It is external influences beyond the control of BA (age legislation) that has caused stagnation, but it won't last forever. At least pilots still have career prospects, however slow. Sadly thousands of my good friends and colleagues no longer enjoy even that due to the greed and intransigence of a handful of autocrats at BASSA's top table, who have been feasting on subs of those they purport to represent for decades.

You are quite correct, it is all about market rate and that rate is declining year on year, as are BA T&C's for pilots. We are working harder for less reward. However we are very productive, and are willing to be adaptable and open minded about how to improve our value for money to BA. Better to take a series of small steps than plunge off a cliff like lemmings led by greedy wolves.

BTW I think you need to check your facts re BA pilot pay scales Count

[Watersidewonker]

Sorry but there was nothing honourable about the dispute. There was no honourable agreement, merely a (failed) face

Then

Indeed they did, and BA showed tremendous patience waiting for Unite to finally step in and sideline Holley and co so they could start the process.

Slightly contradictory, please get your facts right BUG. Was it a deal or not?
I'll tell you - it was an honourable deal that has given crew exactly what they wanted, protection.

greed and intransigence of a handful of autocrats at BASSA's top table, who have been feasting on subs of those they purport to represent for decades.

BASSA receives £3.50 (as per year 2011-2012) per month per crew member X 10000 = £35,000 pa.
I really don't know how 8 (if you're on about purely committee) can feast on that whilst also having to run the branch, which isn't cheap. Audited accounts are there for members to view by e-mailing the branch secretary, so once again please get your facts right before accusing individuals of theft.

[Wirbelsturm]

Looking back, if the company had honoured BASSA's acceptance to save the amount first put to them and not increased it by £30 million pa, where would we be now? Yes £30 millions per year worse off but would have saved £180 millions that was spent on strikes and a massive amount of bad publicity, produced a good 'one team' working environment and a loyal workforce.
You have to ask yourself why? So very sad.

Perhaps something to do with the monumental mistake of BASSA not challenging the inception of MF and concentrating on getting ST back and the re-instatement of their BASSA bullies. Thus leading to an initial cost saving of £100m per annum increasing as the size of MF grows due to lower costs and no 'block' payments. Reduced compliments thus less HOTAC. MF have paid a bonus and benefit on the capital required to get rid of the constant, annual strike fest that was BASSA. Since we have seen an end to the almost yearly tent erection outside the terminal that announced the onset of another holiday period CC strike over nothing.

The problem with your brilliant plan from BASSA was that it never made sense. On another thread we had hundreds and hundreds of posts asking you to explain, in clear and simple terms, why BA were 'out to destroy' BASSA. Never once was an acceptable, rational explanation given. It was all whitewash, lies and hysteria. You seem to believe, once again, that BASSA was the sole target of the company when it hoodwinked, cajoled and lied to ALL of the other departments who were all so stupid that BASSA were the only ones in the company who could see behind the nefarious schemes.

It was this background that led to all of the other unions and departments refusing to sign off on cost savings until BASSA were brought into line. It was this background, along with the ability to analyse the companies confidential figures and the briefs from the city and investors that led to all the other unions agreeing with the company as to the state of the finances. It was with this background that an independent auditor, with no financial attachment to the company, agreed that, with the share price tumbling to below £1.10 per share, the company was in danger of hostile takeover for slots, that led all the other departments and unions to support BA against the ludicrous actions of BASSA. Thus, as BASSA were the only ones who failed to grasp simple concepts, they felt they were 'under attack'.

Who needs to justify their actions?

Now don't take things so personally Wibbly, we do like you really.

I don't take anything personally, you have no idea how little interest I have in whether you like me or not.

Iberia like the BA cabin crew dispute, is now in a fight to the death. After the destruction and misery wreaked at BA, Walsh was able to move on and the healing began. At Iberia, he has nowhere to go. The covenant on his reputation is about to be called in.

Now here is an interesting sentence. Its ironic that the working environment at BA now is far more pleasant than it has been for a long, long time. Notwithstanding a few die hard individuals the crew on the majority of my flights have been excellent and extremely friendly, engaging and social. The looming, bullying 'name and shame' spectre of BASSA is slowly dissipating and the crew are now beginning to realise that they were, indeed, hoodwinked. Not by BA but by BASSA. That atmosphere of fear of speaking out against the all powerful Union has gone and most of the genuine, hard working crew now look back at the time of the strikes an wonder why on earth BASSA did what they did to achieve absolutely nothing.

This is BASSA, the 'Union' that wants to brief, support and school their colleagues in Spain? God help IB Cabin Crew is all I can say.

your over inflated salary/pension would be that much safer.

Still enjoying it Wonker thanks, keep up the name spelling, you're running out of consonants.

[Watersidewonker]

. Never once was an acceptable, rational explanation given. It was all whitewash, lies and hysteria.

Funny how 90 academics posted a letter in the papers to claim the dispute was totally fuelled by the desire to rid BA of BASSA. Of course they'll all be lefties won't they Wirby?

Thus leading to an initial cost saving of £100m per annum increasing as the size of MF grows due to lower costs and no 'block' payments.

Not the least bit bothered. I'm contractually guaranteed to be paid at least £8k per year in 'extras' through the PVEG. I'll gladly go to India for the rest of my career or do the gardening and get £8k in my November salary, so where's the saving using MF?

The looming, bullying 'name and shame' spectre of BASSA is slowly dissipating

And the attention regarding bullying has now turned to pilots. A little birdie tells me the board are absolutely horrified that nearly 3500 union members have actively reported bullying within the workplace - by pilots. Yes, of course in Wirbyworld everything is just fine and dandy, these will just be the militants.

[Wirbelsturm]

A little birdie tells me the board are absolutely horrified that nearly 3500 union members have actively reported bullying within the workplace - by pilots.

3500 members? Or 3500 reports by 100 members? Statistic dear Wonker. Reminding the Purser on SH that it was a requirement to do the 30 minute checks to the flight deck? Bullying! Ludicrous.

Funny how 90 academics posted a letter in the papers to claim the dispute was totally fuelled by the desire to rid BA of BASSA.

Ah, yes, led by the esteemed Keith D Ewing. Nothing like starting from a skewed, biased position. Remind me where the book financing came from again? Ah, yes the Redgrave foundation.

Not the least bit bothered. I'm contractually guaranteed to be paid at least £8k per year in 'extras' through the PVEG. I'll gladly go to India for the rest of my career or do the gardening and get £8k in my November salary, so where's the saving using MF?

And here we have the selfish nub of it. Rather than protecting the T's and C's for all members into the future, you're all right Jack.
BASSA achieved nothing. Nothing whatsoever apart from guaranteeing those who have achieved CSD/Purser the ability to stay as CSD/Purser but those lower down will never have the opportunity to get promotion. Brilliant, enjoy you self aggrandised position. WW will wither and be replaced. Savings achieved.

[Watersidewonker]

3500 members? Or 3500 reports by 100 members?

Absolutely 100% correct - 3500 members not 3500 reports.

Ah, yes, led by the esteemed Keith D Ewing. Nothing like starting from a skewed, biased position. Remind me where the book financing came from again? Ah, yes the Redgrave foundation.

I'm not on about the book. The other academics were not 'led' by KD. Just your paranoia Wirby

And here we have the selfish nub of it. Rather than protecting the T's and C's for all members into the future, you're all right Jack.

Unfortunately Wirby, as you appear to be in cloud cuckoo land I'll spell it out, as that's what the whole dispute was about. PROTECTION FOR CURRENT MEMBERS AT THE TIME OF THE DISPUTE.

BASSA achieved nothing. Nothing whatsoever

Complete rubbish. What was gained was contractual guarantee protecting all crew for the rest of their career on a whole range of issues from pay to forced transfer.

[Juan Tugoh]

BASSA achieved a negotiated, honourable settlement at the end of a bitter dispute. But and it is a BIG but, they got nothing more than those that did not strike and were not BASSA members, Staff Travel was re-instated slowly, with conditions, and was firmly established as non-contarctual, as was the number of crew on the aircraft. The crew member that was removed and the service changes that were imposed (the reason for the strike) never came back. MF was established, saving the company £millions more than asked for and is a permanent and increasing threat to the long term survival of WW and EF. BASSA's baleful influence has been mortally weakened, sure it is still there but it has been emasculated.

Many settlements are honourable and negotiated, BASSA love their war time analogies so here is an apt one; Japan's negotiated and honourable unconditional surrender at the end of WWII. It was still a defeat and BASSA's negotiated and honourable settlement was exactly the same - a defeat. The rest has just been about saving face Well done BASSA.

So what sage advice do the wonder negotiators of BASSA have to give their comrades in arms at IBERIA? Not a lot if the evidence is examined.

[Count Niemantznarr]

Wibbly, you are a bit of a dog with a bone with regards the cabin crew dispute, and once again you weave a series of untruths around to fit your version of events.

Let me repeat that BASSA took very seriously the companies demands. It offered one off the aircraft and the CSD integrated into the cabin service. Then there is the grey area of costings. Wonker has already illustrated what happened next. My personal view is that it was made as hard as possible to achieve a settlement. BASSA of course was very much on the defensive, but there was a line in the sand. It then became apparent that the union was metaphorically being asked to drop its trousers. The rest is history.

There has been a special meeting called by BASSA over the bullying of cabin crew by pilots, and any neutral reader of this forum can see through the tone and aggression of some of the pilots here, that there is substance to the allegations as well as facts and incidents.

Soon Wibbly, you and your colleagues will have your own Mixed Fleet to worry about as BA Express starts up. You know it is coming. What are you going to do about it?

[vctenderness]

BASSA receives £3.50 (as per year 2011-2012) per month per crew member X 10000 = £35,000 pa.
I really don't know how 8 (if you're on about purely committee) can feast on that whilst also having to run the branch, which isn't cheap. Audited accounts are there for members to view by e-mailing the branch secretary, so once again please get your facts right before accusing individuals of theft.


Bunkum no wonder you couldn't show anyone the accounts! Yours maths are very, very poor when it comes to money.


£3.50 per month x 10,000 is £35,000 per MONTH not per ANNUM the total is £420,000 per ANNUM.
Now I know barbies at Bedfont can cost a few bob and Willie Walsh masks for 10,000 cost a pretty penny but £420,000 per year to run a tinpot little outfit like BASSA not forgetting that UNITE take a bigger share of the pie and provide all the legals etc. even a dingbat like you should be able to manage.