Iberia to Lose 4500 jobs - 25 airframes
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It looks like the Spanish media, the public and perhaps the government, are turning against IAG and the ruthless tactics as deployed by Walsh against Spanish workers. Surely the Spanish people must feel a little uneasy watching the news, and seeing their riot police bashing Iberia employees over the head.
The penny has at last dropped that IAG/British Airways are not some benevolent "White Knight," parachuted in to save Iberia and turn it around. There is now a perception of a Spanish national carrier being pillaged by malevolent and aggressive foreign speculators. A theme that has certainly struck a chord and could spell disaster for IAG.
Why on earth did British Airways get involved in this mess and all the anti British sentiment that it has generated in Spain? Who is responsible? Who is going to take responsibilty?
Like at British Airways, Willie Walsh has turned Iberia into a vipers nest of discord and discontent. He is a deeply divisive and damaging CEO and must go before the Iberia dispute escalates. He may be able to manage the war, but like great military enterprises, it is the peace that will be most difficult to reconcile. You only have to look at BA and the damage wreaked there between pilots and cabin crew, to see the legacy of such a management style.
The penny has at last dropped that IAG/British Airways are not some benevolent "White Knight," parachuted in to save Iberia and turn it around. There is now a perception of a Spanish national carrier being pillaged by malevolent and aggressive foreign speculators. A theme that has certainly struck a chord and could spell disaster for IAG.
Why on earth did British Airways get involved in this mess and all the anti British sentiment that it has generated in Spain? Who is responsible? Who is going to take responsibilty?
Like at British Airways, Willie Walsh has turned Iberia into a vipers nest of discord and discontent. He is a deeply divisive and damaging CEO and must go before the Iberia dispute escalates. He may be able to manage the war, but like great military enterprises, it is the peace that will be most difficult to reconcile. You only have to look at BA and the damage wreaked there between pilots and cabin crew, to see the legacy of such a management style.
Watersidewonker
I'm calling it a day anyway and retiring from PPRuNe. Thanks guys, I've thoroughly enjoyed the humour and banter.
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With regards to Gammon Flaps itemising of Training Captains pay in British Airways, I would just like to say thank you for underpinning my assertions with facts.
Actually, my estimate may have been wrong in accordance with your figures. Some senior Captains with their pension, could be grossing nearer to £300,000. Yet on this thread BA flight crew talk of "Market Rate" and the need for Iberia to be an "investment vehicle" again.
And whilst British Airways pilots have access to all this cash, they feel that others in the company are not worthy of what they earn, so train as cabin crew to be strike breakers. Mostly 747 pilots I might add. And here is poor old GF stuck in the right hand seat due to the lack of commands, as Captains beside him rake it in and fret over their tax status.
No its not going to be much fun for the next ten years.
Actually, my estimate may have been wrong in accordance with your figures. Some senior Captains with their pension, could be grossing nearer to £300,000. Yet on this thread BA flight crew talk of "Market Rate" and the need for Iberia to be an "investment vehicle" again.
And whilst British Airways pilots have access to all this cash, they feel that others in the company are not worthy of what they earn, so train as cabin crew to be strike breakers. Mostly 747 pilots I might add. And here is poor old GF stuck in the right hand seat due to the lack of commands, as Captains beside him rake it in and fret over their tax status.
No its not going to be much fun for the next ten years.
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Aporrizaje, WW is a one trick pony - union busting ideas, straight out of the American text books. I've seen it first hand but we were on our own - bullying was actively promoted across all departments, starting with the erection of a wall of hate in the HQ where members of staff were actively encouraged to write derogatory comments about the now demonised cabin crew. Bullying and harassment is still alive and kicking today. At least with you, the managerial bully boys arrogance has surpassed new heights and they're taking you all on together.
What is undoubtedly true is that when they're done all that remains is deep scars and a mistrust that will be evident for a very long time. In a dispute of this magnitude, as The Count states, the end is the beginning. To this day legal action goes on and on and will culminate in a ECHR hearing in May 2014 where the WHOLE truth will emerge - enough to make your hair stand on end and never put faith in a human being again.
Ignore the company rhetoric about 'we had to do it', they didn't, all the savings were offered, only the goal post was moved when it became evident an agreed settlement could be reached. You'll soon be introduced to some very real characters whose lives had and have been turned upside down by a company they loved and trusted. Very sad.
What is undoubtedly true is that when they're done all that remains is deep scars and a mistrust that will be evident for a very long time. In a dispute of this magnitude, as The Count states, the end is the beginning. To this day legal action goes on and on and will culminate in a ECHR hearing in May 2014 where the WHOLE truth will emerge - enough to make your hair stand on end and never put faith in a human being again.
Ignore the company rhetoric about 'we had to do it', they didn't, all the savings were offered, only the goal post was moved when it became evident an agreed settlement could be reached. You'll soon be introduced to some very real characters whose lives had and have been turned upside down by a company they loved and trusted. Very sad.
I'm calling it a day anyway and retiring from PPRuNe. Thanks guys, I've thoroughly enjoyed the humour and banter.
Did you log in with the wrong alias, Watersidewonker, instead of using one of your plentiful other guises? It was never your intention to stay away from here, was it? You just can't help yourself, can you? LOL!
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Can you name the accountants that checked the unions maths on their cost savings www? You remember the one's that proved that BASSA could not add up? Facts or wishes?
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 24th Feb 2013 at 11:51.
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Did the goalposts change when agreement was nearing on the £42 million saving? Yes, it changed to an unreasonable £75 million - a target that could not be reached. BASSA were never afforded the luxury of viewing the BA accounts. That insight was given to a strike busting union - BALPA.
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Ah the re-writing of history, something you continue to do ad nauseum www.
BALPA were not a strike breaking union any more than UNITE were. indeed more volunteer cabin crew came from UNITE than BALPA and ALL were acting independently from their union.
BASSA were afforded the luxury of viewing BA's accounts, all they had to do was to sign a standard non-disclosure agreement, which they failed to do. They then decided to come up with cost-savings that were completely mythical, when costed out by an independent accountant the cost savings DID NOT ADD UP.
BALPA were not a strike breaking union any more than UNITE were. indeed more volunteer cabin crew came from UNITE than BALPA and ALL were acting independently from their union.
BASSA were afforded the luxury of viewing BA's accounts, all they had to do was to sign a standard non-disclosure agreement, which they failed to do. They then decided to come up with cost-savings that were completely mythical, when costed out by an independent accountant the cost savings DID NOT ADD UP.
With regards to Gammon Flaps itemising of Training Captains pay in British Airways, I would just like to say thank you for underpinning my assertions with facts.
Actually, my estimate may have been wrong in accordance with your figures. Some senior Captains with their pension, could be grossing nearer to £300,000.
Actually, my estimate may have been wrong in accordance with your figures. Some senior Captains with their pension, could be grossing nearer to £300,000.
Yours, neither fretting or raking it in.
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Thank you Wiggy. Of course you would like to close the discussion down in relation to the huge salaries that BA pilots can command, but it is relevant as many pilots here have stated that Iberia Flight Crew are overpaid.
I find it curious that BA flight crew are very quick to comment on the salaries of other staff and whether they are paid the 'Market Rate', but for some reason their own remuneration package is apparently immune from scrutiny. For instance, the prime motivator for BA flight crew volunteering to fly as cabin crew, was because they believed that group of workers were paid too much. They were also duped into this mindset by a conviction that the BA cabin crew were going to bankrupt the airline. Selfishness, greed and the relentless pursuit of their own gravy train, were the prime motivators however for BA pilots supporting Willie Walsh in his efforts to smash BASSA, the cabin crew union. Of course the flight crew were paid £120 an hour for their 'services', plus were given around £16,000 each in share options for being so helpful to the cause.
Naturally this would explain the current lack of empathy with their colleagues at Iberia. No doubt BA flight crew must be secretly wishing that SEPLA succeeds in fending off IAG's demands, as soon after, the crocodile of appeasement might turn its attention to them. And it will...of course.
I find it curious that BA flight crew are very quick to comment on the salaries of other staff and whether they are paid the 'Market Rate', but for some reason their own remuneration package is apparently immune from scrutiny. For instance, the prime motivator for BA flight crew volunteering to fly as cabin crew, was because they believed that group of workers were paid too much. They were also duped into this mindset by a conviction that the BA cabin crew were going to bankrupt the airline. Selfishness, greed and the relentless pursuit of their own gravy train, were the prime motivators however for BA pilots supporting Willie Walsh in his efforts to smash BASSA, the cabin crew union. Of course the flight crew were paid £120 an hour for their 'services', plus were given around £16,000 each in share options for being so helpful to the cause.
Naturally this would explain the current lack of empathy with their colleagues at Iberia. No doubt BA flight crew must be secretly wishing that SEPLA succeeds in fending off IAG's demands, as soon after, the crocodile of appeasement might turn its attention to them. And it will...of course.
Last edited by Count Niemantznarr; 24th Feb 2013 at 18:45.
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And still it fall of deaf ears that most BA pilots earn no way near the salaries being touted on here. 16K for cabin crew? I don't know but euro fleet and world wide earn way more than that. New mixed fleet cabin crew I guess your correct. Many of the newer pilots have had to fund up to £100,000 in training costs and don't earn much more than some and I emphasis some cabin crew. In fact a SCCM laughed when I said what I was on.
Its a pointless fight anyhow because the crews I have the pleasure of flying with are all very nice and the respect is shown both ways. It does seem that some people want to make a fight out of something that does not exist. I think you will find that many of the flight crews understand and support cabin crew. Every single part of the work force is going to have pressure placed on their terms and conditions. Its up to us to work with our employer to improve productivity and best maintain our terms. No in fighting or standing about with banners is going to help achieve that. PS I"ll be in the plane what ever because I have a family to support.
Its a pointless fight anyhow because the crews I have the pleasure of flying with are all very nice and the respect is shown both ways. It does seem that some people want to make a fight out of something that does not exist. I think you will find that many of the flight crews understand and support cabin crew. Every single part of the work force is going to have pressure placed on their terms and conditions. Its up to us to work with our employer to improve productivity and best maintain our terms. No in fighting or standing about with banners is going to help achieve that. PS I"ll be in the plane what ever because I have a family to support.
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You're welcome Aporrizaje. 10 of us have tickets on easy on the 3rd. We're coming back on the 5th as we've heard there maybe a march on IAG's HQ on the 6th in support of you guys. Well done and stick at it - we're right behind you!
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The thing is WWW, by 10 of you having "tickets on easy" all your doing is increasing the profits of your main rivals from London to Madrid. Thus further reducing the profitability of that route for IAG, thus further reducing your own T&C's. Easyjet are laughing all the way to the bank. Go and work there and tell us all how good the T's & C's are.
After 5 airlines, 3 redundancies and a merger I can honestly say that my pay packet as a pilot for BA is the worst I have ever had for 9 years. Don't tell me I earn £250,000 when I am just about struggling to break even each month.
You honestly live in a different world to the rest of society.
After 5 airlines, 3 redundancies and a merger I can honestly say that my pay packet as a pilot for BA is the worst I have ever had for 9 years. Don't tell me I earn £250,000 when I am just about struggling to break even each month.
You honestly live in a different world to the rest of society.
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Lets put this rubbish from CN and Wonker away shall we.
There are a very few pilots who were in exactly the right position when certain legislation came from Brussels to take advantage of the increase in the retirement age.
These pilots were on the APS pension which was a final salary scheme which ran company wide and was enjoyed by the Cabin Crew as well. Being a 'final salary' pension scheme it's payout was defined by, no surprise, the final two years salary whilst in the scheme. When these guys approached 55, mandatory retirment age, they crystalised their pension pots and prepared for retirement. Lo and behold, Brussels increased the retirement age for flight crew and these few guys are now enjoying the benefits.
The same scheme as the Cabin Crew enjoyed.
APS was replaced by NAPS and that is now stuggling with the vast majority of members having to work longer and pay in substantially more to get a lower pension. Finally NAPS has been replaced by BARP which is a money purchase scheme.
All in all there are probably less that 20-25 of the APS guys left and they will be going soon. They have paid for their scheme so why knock them? As far as income rewards go what about Duncan Holley and the £50,000 he raped from the BASSA members just to lead them up the garden path. No wonder he could afford to slope all his work off to his peers.
As to the financial reports, BASSA were offered, the same as BALPA, the opportunity to see the accounts, pending signature of a confidentiality agreement due to the sensitive commercial nature of the documents, but refused. They stated they weren't accountants so it was a waste of time. Then went for a punch up in the car park with their rival CC union.
Their cost savings didn't add up, they didn't meet any deadlines set by the company that all the other groups managed. So BA readjusted the savings required to the new time frame and BASSA just claimed 'goal post' moving. BASSA consistently refuse to admit that more members of Unite worked as VCC's during the dispute than pilots. Also they refuse to accept that the needed numbers of VCC's from anywhere was drastically reduced by the willingness of their own members to work instead of putting up with the 1970's socialist bruvvahood at Bedfont.
Sure you want them in Madrid???
There are a very few pilots who were in exactly the right position when certain legislation came from Brussels to take advantage of the increase in the retirement age.
These pilots were on the APS pension which was a final salary scheme which ran company wide and was enjoyed by the Cabin Crew as well. Being a 'final salary' pension scheme it's payout was defined by, no surprise, the final two years salary whilst in the scheme. When these guys approached 55, mandatory retirment age, they crystalised their pension pots and prepared for retirement. Lo and behold, Brussels increased the retirement age for flight crew and these few guys are now enjoying the benefits.
The same scheme as the Cabin Crew enjoyed.
APS was replaced by NAPS and that is now stuggling with the vast majority of members having to work longer and pay in substantially more to get a lower pension. Finally NAPS has been replaced by BARP which is a money purchase scheme.
All in all there are probably less that 20-25 of the APS guys left and they will be going soon. They have paid for their scheme so why knock them? As far as income rewards go what about Duncan Holley and the £50,000 he raped from the BASSA members just to lead them up the garden path. No wonder he could afford to slope all his work off to his peers.
As to the financial reports, BASSA were offered, the same as BALPA, the opportunity to see the accounts, pending signature of a confidentiality agreement due to the sensitive commercial nature of the documents, but refused. They stated they weren't accountants so it was a waste of time. Then went for a punch up in the car park with their rival CC union.
Their cost savings didn't add up, they didn't meet any deadlines set by the company that all the other groups managed. So BA readjusted the savings required to the new time frame and BASSA just claimed 'goal post' moving. BASSA consistently refuse to admit that more members of Unite worked as VCC's during the dispute than pilots. Also they refuse to accept that the needed numbers of VCC's from anywhere was drastically reduced by the willingness of their own members to work instead of putting up with the 1970's socialist bruvvahood at Bedfont.
Sure you want them in Madrid???
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So BA readjusted the savings required to the new time frame
Percentage wise cc cost savings demanded were far far higher than that demanded from other departments, even before the goal posts were changed.
At least you get all what you've given up back in shares Wirby, and a bit more!
The thing is WWW, by 10 of you having "tickets on easy" all your doing is increasing the profits of your main rivals from London to Madrid. Thus further reducing the profitability of that route for IAG, thus further reducing your own T&C's. Easyjet are laughing all the way to the bank. Go and work there and tell us all how good the T's & C's are.
Last edited by Watersidewonker; 25th Feb 2013 at 08:57.
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Not so pretty if you have 100k training debt and a mortgage. Still lets all put on our company issued leather gloves, drive home in the Aston Martin to our mock Tudor mansion in Surrey. In reality it's the Renault Clio and a 70 mile drive away from London to get to where you could afford to live. Still don't let facts get in the way of a great story. We are the fortunate ones as well