Iberia to Lose 4500 jobs - 25 airframes
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And your point is?
Where, pray, would increased payments come from?
Iberia unions and IAG close to agreement to save 666 jobs
International Airlines Group accepts mediator's deal to reduce job losses from 3,807 to 3,141 and increase severance pay
Looks like a 40% increase for redundant personnel Wirby and a slight climb down and face saving exercise for management.
Last edited by Watersidewonker; 12th Mar 2013 at 19:26.
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@ chocolateracer, the BEST thing about those 'silly bag tags' is watching the faces of 'silly pilots' turning the same colour when they see them
!!
Priceless!
!!Priceless!
Last edited by gladrags; 12th Mar 2013 at 19:43.
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Fair play to the IB unions. Good to see positive news and I support it 100%. IA not so much....
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EXeng
I totaly agree within a few posts within a few posts Watsrsidewonker & glad rags have turned a thread about a large number of people about to loose their income to a pathetic spat about baggage tags.
I have to ask are these people living in the real world of job losses and financial hardship or some parallel universe where perceived slights and types of baggage tags are far more important than 600 people loosing their jobs.
As someone who is based in Spain I can only gasp in total astonishment at the total detachment that Watersidewonker & glad rags have from the harsh realitys of life for those about to loose their jobs in Iberia.
What Watersidewonker & glad rags have failed to realize is that they are living in the very privileged position than have made these petty things so important to them, perhaps exchanging their position for those who are about to have to find money to put food on the table and pay the mortgage without a job might bring a touch of balance to their narrow and sheltered lives.
Watersidewonker & glad rags have you any idea what your pathetic rantings must look like to those about to loose their jobs with Iberia ?
I have to ask are these people living in the real world of job losses and financial hardship or some parallel universe where perceived slights and types of baggage tags are far more important than 600 people loosing their jobs.
As someone who is based in Spain I can only gasp in total astonishment at the total detachment that Watersidewonker & glad rags have from the harsh realitys of life for those about to loose their jobs in Iberia.
What Watersidewonker & glad rags have failed to realize is that they are living in the very privileged position than have made these petty things so important to them, perhaps exchanging their position for those who are about to have to find money to put food on the table and pay the mortgage without a job might bring a touch of balance to their narrow and sheltered lives.
Watersidewonker & glad rags have you any idea what your pathetic rantings must look like to those about to loose their jobs with Iberia ?
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Iberia Dispute...
@A and C, please explain what 'rantings' I have engaged in on this forum?
If you care to read back, I merely REPLIED to a glib comment made by another poster with an equally glib reply.
I find it odd that you choose not to highlight the comment of chocolateracer, who was the poster to initially mention the 'baggage tags' you refer to.
Perhaps in the interest of fairness, if you feel it necessary to challenge what you perceive as off-thread/inappropriate comments, you direct it at all those involved. I think that's fair, don't you?
Secondly, you mention that, in your opinion, I have a total detachment from the realities of the plight imminently facing our IB colleagues? Again, I challenge you to specify exactly what it is that I have written that gives you the impression. I think you will find your comment is totally without foundation.
FYI, I don't live in a parallel universe(I couldn't afford the house prices!)nor do I live a "narrow and sheltered life".
I like most intelligent people, realise that the employment conditions and job security etc in the 'outside world' are far from as comfortable as the ones we all enjoy. As I stated in one of my earlier posts, I am fortunate to have a great job, with a great company.
I have also NEVER underestimated the impact that the job losses planned for our IB colleague will have upon them and their families. To insinuate that I do, is again totally incorrect and again entirely without foundation.
Getting back to thread, I sincerely hope that the progress that seems to have been made in the IB/IAG negotiations, brings the very best result for all those involved.
If you care to read back, I merely REPLIED to a glib comment made by another poster with an equally glib reply.
I find it odd that you choose not to highlight the comment of chocolateracer, who was the poster to initially mention the 'baggage tags' you refer to.
Perhaps in the interest of fairness, if you feel it necessary to challenge what you perceive as off-thread/inappropriate comments, you direct it at all those involved. I think that's fair, don't you?
Secondly, you mention that, in your opinion, I have a total detachment from the realities of the plight imminently facing our IB colleagues? Again, I challenge you to specify exactly what it is that I have written that gives you the impression. I think you will find your comment is totally without foundation.
FYI, I don't live in a parallel universe(I couldn't afford the house prices!)nor do I live a "narrow and sheltered life".
I like most intelligent people, realise that the employment conditions and job security etc in the 'outside world' are far from as comfortable as the ones we all enjoy. As I stated in one of my earlier posts, I am fortunate to have a great job, with a great company.
I have also NEVER underestimated the impact that the job losses planned for our IB colleague will have upon them and their families. To insinuate that I do, is again totally incorrect and again entirely without foundation.
Getting back to thread, I sincerely hope that the progress that seems to have been made in the IB/IAG negotiations, brings the very best result for all those involved.
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Hi,i'm back.
There is no backslapping over here about the mediation.
Here's why:
Iberia Dic'12:
105✈ 20000 💪
Total 190 💪 x ✈
Iberia today:
86 ✈ y 20.000 💪
Total 232 💪 x ✈
Iberia after mediation layoffs:
55 ✈ 16.893 💪
total 307 💪x ✈
Meanwhile Vueling and IBxpress are growing,promoting captains and either hiring or preparing to hire (Ibxpress through PARC aviation).
Inside a year we will be redundant,easier and cheaper to lay off because of mediation salary cuts and progressively diminishing flight schedules.
This is not a re-structuring of IB,we are being methodically emptied,mismanaged and substituted by a low-cost,union-less workforce.Period.
The only protection we have now is the Laudo(prevents Ibxpress growth until 2015) and the increased asking price for a Vueling takeover.
The mediation is not good news for us.
And i will not tire of repeating this:
We are not fighting to maintain T&C's ,we are fighting against sure extinction.
Please stop lecturing about how "BA pilots did their homework blah,blah...".
AFAIK you took a 2,6% cut and 78? layoffs.Big deal.
On the overall picture IB workforce is cheaper than BA's.Check the 2012 report and do the maths.
I would gladly take a 26% cut(yes 10x) in exchange of a future for IB,we all would.
IAG is not interested.
There is no backslapping over here about the mediation.
Here's why:
Iberia Dic'12:
105✈ 20000 💪
Total 190 💪 x ✈
Iberia today:
86 ✈ y 20.000 💪
Total 232 💪 x ✈
Iberia after mediation layoffs:
55 ✈ 16.893 💪
total 307 💪x ✈
Meanwhile Vueling and IBxpress are growing,promoting captains and either hiring or preparing to hire (Ibxpress through PARC aviation).
Inside a year we will be redundant,easier and cheaper to lay off because of mediation salary cuts and progressively diminishing flight schedules.
This is not a re-structuring of IB,we are being methodically emptied,mismanaged and substituted by a low-cost,union-less workforce.Period.
The only protection we have now is the Laudo(prevents Ibxpress growth until 2015) and the increased asking price for a Vueling takeover.
The mediation is not good news for us.
And i will not tire of repeating this:
We are not fighting to maintain T&C's ,we are fighting against sure extinction.
Please stop lecturing about how "BA pilots did their homework blah,blah...".
AFAIK you took a 2,6% cut and 78? layoffs.Big deal.
On the overall picture IB workforce is cheaper than BA's.Check the 2012 report and do the maths.
I would gladly take a 26% cut(yes 10x) in exchange of a future for IB,we all would.
IAG is not interested.
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I have great sympathy for you all in IB and wish you all the very best for the future.
However, it is irrelevant what pay cuts anyone in BA has taken, be they pilots, ground handlers, cabin crew or check in staff. The issue is that BA went through it's restructuring and is, at the moment, a profitable organisation. IB is, sadly a basket case. It lost nearly a billion Euros last year, this is unsustainable. IB needs to restructure or it will die irrelevant of what pay cut or redundancies BA had a few years ago. Remember that one base, LGW recently shed nearly 600 staff on the ground and now those jobs are outsourced. The pain at BA is ongoing, though conveniently forgotten in this debate.
Furthermore, you pick on one small part of a long series of pay changes and redundancies without looking at any productivity changes that have happened. ALL of which is irrelevant to IB - they either change or die, losses of a nearly a billion Euro a year are simply unsustainable. We all face challenges to our future, the face of aviation has changed and will change further, the growth of the lo-co has forever changed the nature of the business. BA has faced this challenge longer than IB and has been adapting for longer.
I sincerely hope that IB comes out of this stronger and with a secure future. It is time for you to stop looking with greedy eyes at what BA has, all the while blaming them for all your woes and start dealing with the structural issues that IB faces.
The mediation is a step forward and I hope it is the first of many positive ones for all at IB.
However, it is irrelevant what pay cuts anyone in BA has taken, be they pilots, ground handlers, cabin crew or check in staff. The issue is that BA went through it's restructuring and is, at the moment, a profitable organisation. IB is, sadly a basket case. It lost nearly a billion Euros last year, this is unsustainable. IB needs to restructure or it will die irrelevant of what pay cut or redundancies BA had a few years ago. Remember that one base, LGW recently shed nearly 600 staff on the ground and now those jobs are outsourced. The pain at BA is ongoing, though conveniently forgotten in this debate.
Furthermore, you pick on one small part of a long series of pay changes and redundancies without looking at any productivity changes that have happened. ALL of which is irrelevant to IB - they either change or die, losses of a nearly a billion Euro a year are simply unsustainable. We all face challenges to our future, the face of aviation has changed and will change further, the growth of the lo-co has forever changed the nature of the business. BA has faced this challenge longer than IB and has been adapting for longer.
I sincerely hope that IB comes out of this stronger and with a secure future. It is time for you to stop looking with greedy eyes at what BA has, all the while blaming them for all your woes and start dealing with the structural issues that IB faces.
The mediation is a step forward and I hope it is the first of many positive ones for all at IB.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 13th Mar 2013 at 10:49.
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"The mediation is a step forward and I hope it is the first of many positive ones for all at IB."
No Juan,it is not.If you had read my post you'd understand why.
It leaves IB with an even more appalling employee per airplane ratio and gives it freedom to grow via IBxpress.
So next year IB's numbers will be even worse,requiring even more layoffs.Layoffs that will be cheaper,with a minimized industrial action impact due to greatly reduced flights and lack of trust on the "yellow" unions.
So the mediation by itself simply spells doom on IB.
No Juan,it is not.If you had read my post you'd understand why.
It leaves IB with an even more appalling employee per airplane ratio and gives it freedom to grow via IBxpress.
So next year IB's numbers will be even worse,requiring even more layoffs.Layoffs that will be cheaper,with a minimized industrial action impact due to greatly reduced flights and lack of trust on the "yellow" unions.
So the mediation by itself simply spells doom on IB.
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I see much criticism. Criticism if IAG's plan, of the mediator, of BA, yet there seems to be no acknowledgement that IB is in a terminal dive unless something is done to address the massive losses. Something must be done or the staff to planes ratio will be irrelevant as IB will cease to exist.
Your staff to aircraft ratios are revealing but they only argue for deeper staff cuts.
A difficult time. What would you suggest to turn the doomed ship that is IB away from the iceberg?IB must stop the losses, it cannot continue as it is.
Your staff to aircraft ratios are revealing but they only argue for deeper staff cuts.
A difficult time. What would you suggest to turn the doomed ship that is IB away from the iceberg?IB must stop the losses, it cannot continue as it is.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 13th Mar 2013 at 12:32.
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What i would die for right now:
-Give the unions a plan that recovers all the production we have given away,showing a compromise on the management side to try and keep IB alive vs replacing it with IBx/Vueling.(Sucesion de empresas ,en espaņol).
-Negotiate salary cuts and layoffs based on this plan.
Some cuts will be permanent (new T&C) and others temporary and as drastic as needed to guarantee survival.
-Make voluntary layoffs for the veterans,temporary reductions for those willing etc...There are many formulas available to reduce the number of forced layoffs.
But the first point is the key to cooperation of the workforce.We cannot be expected to help in our extinction,right?.
-Give the unions a plan that recovers all the production we have given away,showing a compromise on the management side to try and keep IB alive vs replacing it with IBx/Vueling.(Sucesion de empresas ,en espaņol).
-Negotiate salary cuts and layoffs based on this plan.
Some cuts will be permanent (new T&C) and others temporary and as drastic as needed to guarantee survival.
-Make voluntary layoffs for the veterans,temporary reductions for those willing etc...There are many formulas available to reduce the number of forced layoffs.
But the first point is the key to cooperation of the workforce.We cannot be expected to help in our extinction,right?.
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It may be that the concept of temporary changes and reductions may be the bit where you do help in your own extinction. IB are losing so much money that merely to take time out would only postpone it's death. It needs permanent structural changes that will allow it to compete with IBX and Vuelling. Things cannot return to where they were, the world has moved on.
Whatever changes are needed, they would be better achieved with the workforce rather than despite them.
Anyone that works for IAG should hope that IB becomes again a profitable and successful airline with a happy workforce. IB/BA, we are all part of IAG and should want to see our colleagues treated well with stable and secure futures. Whatever the pain of the moment and however that pain is managed, let us all hope it saves the patient and does not kill them.
Whatever changes are needed, they would be better achieved with the workforce rather than despite them.
Anyone that works for IAG should hope that IB becomes again a profitable and successful airline with a happy workforce. IB/BA, we are all part of IAG and should want to see our colleagues treated well with stable and secure futures. Whatever the pain of the moment and however that pain is managed, let us all hope it saves the patient and does not kill them.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 13th Mar 2013 at 14:25.