CTC Killing the INDUSTRY!! eJ, Monarch, Thomson and ????
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Full Left Rudder,
Things were a bit different when you finished training through CTC were they not? Did you get a bond repayment and a full-time contract?
Flexicrew has neither of the above and is most probably here to stay.
Things were a bit different when you finished training through CTC were they not? Did you get a bond repayment and a full-time contract?
Flexicrew has neither of the above and is most probably here to stay.
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Priceless stuff. Silvercare, you really need to get that chip off your shoulder.
I made an investment in order to get a return, on top of which I get to do something I enjoy doing. This is no different to many of the self employed people around the world, entrepreneurs or students on long degree courses (doctors and architects spring to mind). Aviation has changed. Training to be a pilot now falls into that category. You wouldn't call an architect student who trained for 7 years only to earn a modest salary a whore now would you? Most of those students probably chose that line of work because they enjoy it and it offers long term rewards, just like most errrr...... aspiring pilots. Wake up to the real world.
Narrow Runway - seeing as you asked. I pay 6% of salary into my pension pot, and my company pays 12%. My company funded Critical Illness cover is 120,000. If you think that equates to getting shafted then I am not sure what planet you think you live on.
I made an investment in order to get a return, on top of which I get to do something I enjoy doing. This is no different to many of the self employed people around the world, entrepreneurs or students on long degree courses (doctors and architects spring to mind). Aviation has changed. Training to be a pilot now falls into that category. You wouldn't call an architect student who trained for 7 years only to earn a modest salary a whore now would you? Most of those students probably chose that line of work because they enjoy it and it offers long term rewards, just like most errrr...... aspiring pilots. Wake up to the real world.
Narrow Runway - seeing as you asked. I pay 6% of salary into my pension pot, and my company pays 12%. My company funded Critical Illness cover is 120,000. If you think that equates to getting shafted then I am not sure what planet you think you live on.
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Monk 360: I am glad you've got the sense to ensure your future by saving, rather than p!ssing it away and boasting of Breitlings and Range Rovers. You are, at least, a realist.
Full Left Rudder: You didn't get any of that with easyJet did you? You joined BA and gained those terms and conditions. Slightly disingenuous of you to portray that your company pension and loss of licence had a single thing to do with CTC. You are fortunate enough to have left low cost and joined legacy.
You have done extremely well from the new system, but that doesn't mean it all beds of Roses. It is a pernicious influence on all our futures.
The fact is that CTC has irrevocably damaged the terms and conditions in our industry. They won't improve any time soon and the sooner we all realise that the better.
including the CTC wunderkind who believe that how they are treated and what they are earning is a good deal. It is not.
Full Left Rudder: You didn't get any of that with easyJet did you? You joined BA and gained those terms and conditions. Slightly disingenuous of you to portray that your company pension and loss of licence had a single thing to do with CTC. You are fortunate enough to have left low cost and joined legacy.
You have done extremely well from the new system, but that doesn't mean it all beds of Roses. It is a pernicious influence on all our futures.
The fact is that CTC has irrevocably damaged the terms and conditions in our industry. They won't improve any time soon and the sooner we all realise that the better.
including the CTC wunderkind who believe that how they are treated and what they are earning is a good deal. It is not.
Last edited by Narrow Runway; 3rd Apr 2012 at 08:00.
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I agree it is not all a bed of roses. I never said it was, only that a positive outlook on it all goes a long way in dealing with the issues.
I don't own a range rover or a breitling, I only said I could afford them. Instead I am investing my money sensibly for the future in these uncertain times.
Contrary to your thoughts, I do still work for easyJet, and they provide me with all those said benefits and a high salary (and actually a salary much higher than CTC ever promised at the beginning of training). I saw the opportunity offered in the European bases and bit the bullet. I knew it would be tough to move abroad, into a new culture and a new language, but I was positive enough to take that step rather than doing nothing about being in a bad situation, expecting the good life to be presented to me on a plate because somehow that was the God given right of a pilot, and then proceeding to moan about it for the rest of my career when that inevitably didn't happen.
Like I said in my first post on this topic. CTC is not perfect, but it is the reality now (and a good reality in many ways, as supported by several other posters on this thread). Combined with a positive outlook the overall result can still be very good.
It's a shame that some of the posters on this thread seem to believe a good old rant about CTC and the supposed eventual implosion of the entire universe will actually achieve something.
I don't own a range rover or a breitling, I only said I could afford them. Instead I am investing my money sensibly for the future in these uncertain times.
Contrary to your thoughts, I do still work for easyJet, and they provide me with all those said benefits and a high salary (and actually a salary much higher than CTC ever promised at the beginning of training). I saw the opportunity offered in the European bases and bit the bullet. I knew it would be tough to move abroad, into a new culture and a new language, but I was positive enough to take that step rather than doing nothing about being in a bad situation, expecting the good life to be presented to me on a plate because somehow that was the God given right of a pilot, and then proceeding to moan about it for the rest of my career when that inevitably didn't happen.
Like I said in my first post on this topic. CTC is not perfect, but it is the reality now (and a good reality in many ways, as supported by several other posters on this thread). Combined with a positive outlook the overall result can still be very good.
It's a shame that some of the posters on this thread seem to believe a good old rant about CTC and the supposed eventual implosion of the entire universe will actually achieve something.
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Here and Now
I think what some people fail to see is that CTC has almost entirely closed the door for Modular students.
CTC is now the default route when a lot of the prominent airlines are short of pilots. If an individual cannot pay for an Integrated course, he's pretty much left out in the cold now. The chances of him securing employment now are slimmer than ever.
So... I'd like to say a big thankyou to CTC and all of those who had to fly a jet ASAP - you've pushed me and most of the recent Modular students out of the running for the forseeable future...
CTC is now the default route when a lot of the prominent airlines are short of pilots. If an individual cannot pay for an Integrated course, he's pretty much left out in the cold now. The chances of him securing employment now are slimmer than ever.
So... I'd like to say a big thankyou to CTC and all of those who had to fly a jet ASAP - you've pushed me and most of the recent Modular students out of the running for the forseeable future...
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FLR,
I stand corrected, congratulations for seeking out the current value in the easyJet pack of cards. You have done well for not necessarily staying close to home.
It is good that easyJet France offer such terms and conditions, but I suspect that is more to do with French law than anything else.
The real shame of it is that, not all pilots in easyJet have such rewards.
Now wouldn't it be nice if they did?
I stand corrected, congratulations for seeking out the current value in the easyJet pack of cards. You have done well for not necessarily staying close to home.
It is good that easyJet France offer such terms and conditions, but I suspect that is more to do with French law than anything else.
The real shame of it is that, not all pilots in easyJet have such rewards.
Now wouldn't it be nice if they did?
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Guys, Come on now CTC had no power to destroy the T’s&C’s you did that all by yourselves by not standing up to the company when the idea of Flexi Crew was first suggested i.e. you should never have agreed to any form of contractor flying your companies airframes. (We need to include Ryan Air Crew in this too).
I don’t see any contractors driving main line and tube trains etc because of their solidarity in support of their union.
Unfortunately the L&RHS ‘well it doesn’t affect me’ brigade is the culprit here.
In every industry from IT to construction and even the armed forces the introduction of contractors has wrecked the T’s & C’s of the workforce.
When are you lot going to grow a pair and actually do something about it?
Actually its not just CTC but all of the agency providers (Brookfield, Rishworth etc), this is an industry all of its own now just look at Serco in public services sector and AlexanderMann in IT services to see where you are headed.
So EZY guys here are some suggestions, in your Merlin negotiations instead of spending all of your efforts to improve the RHS package, insist on limiting flexicrew to say 10% of total pilots with a minimum of hours per year, scrap the random roster and define the salary levels based on experience/ seniority etc. just like the legacy airlines do.
If you are not prepared to do this, stand by and watch whilst further erosion takes place.
I don’t see any contractors driving main line and tube trains etc because of their solidarity in support of their union.
Unfortunately the L&RHS ‘well it doesn’t affect me’ brigade is the culprit here.
In every industry from IT to construction and even the armed forces the introduction of contractors has wrecked the T’s & C’s of the workforce.
When are you lot going to grow a pair and actually do something about it?
Actually its not just CTC but all of the agency providers (Brookfield, Rishworth etc), this is an industry all of its own now just look at Serco in public services sector and AlexanderMann in IT services to see where you are headed.
So EZY guys here are some suggestions, in your Merlin negotiations instead of spending all of your efforts to improve the RHS package, insist on limiting flexicrew to say 10% of total pilots with a minimum of hours per year, scrap the random roster and define the salary levels based on experience/ seniority etc. just like the legacy airlines do.
If you are not prepared to do this, stand by and watch whilst further erosion takes place.
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Cloud 9.5:
CTC are now a contractor for the military at Brize Norton
CTC are the only route into Monarch, TCX, EZY and a host of others abroad.
At EZY 60% of RHS is CTC/Flexi overall and 70% at Gatwick. Many LHS are now CTC trained.
Why should they do anything?
Do they care about Modular folk or Flybe Captains adn FOs stuck in their Q400 careers?
Do they care about the decline of GA and olde school Flying as a route into flying?
Do they care if experienced ex Military or Biz Jet pilots are ignored?
FTL:
Your Architect example does not hold water in comparison to CTC and the like post 2008.
What architect pays to go to work like those that paid to fly passengers for 100h with EZY and bmi?
What apprenticeship scheme do CTC cadets go through - especially the new MPL ones? They are poorly trained (minimum actual flight time, and lowest cost to CTC and EZY) straight into the RHS of an automated JAR25 machine without a real understanding of the systems (CBT is a poor method of learning) or how to fly raw data/manually. On the line it is about saving fuel so no time to get a feel for the aircraft. Is it any wonder that some can't land the aeroplane?
And the airlines are tying to reduce the MPL 12 landings requirement on cost grounds!!!
Yes we all have to pay to get a frozen ATPL but why pay more to improve the CEOs bonus?
An architect pays to follow their career path initially (but a lot less than £120k) and they are paid for their designs - they don't pay to use a CAD machine per hour or rent office space to complete site plans for a profit making firm.
CTC are now a contractor for the military at Brize Norton
CTC are the only route into Monarch, TCX, EZY and a host of others abroad.
At EZY 60% of RHS is CTC/Flexi overall and 70% at Gatwick. Many LHS are now CTC trained.
Why should they do anything?
Do they care about Modular folk or Flybe Captains adn FOs stuck in their Q400 careers?
Do they care about the decline of GA and olde school Flying as a route into flying?
Do they care if experienced ex Military or Biz Jet pilots are ignored?
FTL:
Your Architect example does not hold water in comparison to CTC and the like post 2008.
What architect pays to go to work like those that paid to fly passengers for 100h with EZY and bmi?
What apprenticeship scheme do CTC cadets go through - especially the new MPL ones? They are poorly trained (minimum actual flight time, and lowest cost to CTC and EZY) straight into the RHS of an automated JAR25 machine without a real understanding of the systems (CBT is a poor method of learning) or how to fly raw data/manually. On the line it is about saving fuel so no time to get a feel for the aircraft. Is it any wonder that some can't land the aeroplane?
And the airlines are tying to reduce the MPL 12 landings requirement on cost grounds!!!
Yes we all have to pay to get a frozen ATPL but why pay more to improve the CEOs bonus?
An architect pays to follow their career path initially (but a lot less than £120k) and they are paid for their designs - they don't pay to use a CAD machine per hour or rent office space to complete site plans for a profit making firm.
Plumbum Pendular
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Let's not blame the cadets. It is CTC who are to blame and ezyJet for coming up with the FlexiCrew scheme and Ryan Air for forcing the market to such depths of wretchedness in the first place.
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CTC are the only route into Monarch, TCX, EZY and a host of others abroad.
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It is also incorrect that CTC is the only route into EZY and TCX. Far from in in fact. Although I do agree CTC has a large market share there.
Are you really sure an architect doesn't pay best part of 120K to train? That figure you quote is after compound interest is taken into account, and even then is substantially inflated above reality. An architect student will study for at least 5 years unpaid. That doesn't come cheap and will require loans to pay Uni fees and living costs. That could very conceivably equate to about the same as the initial outlay a trainee pilot makes. They too then have to pay back interest across a long time frame. Can't think there is too much difference in the end.
Narrow Runway - I agree. It would be better if all easyJet employees had great benefits too. Aside from Flexicrew I believe that everyone is on a reasonable deal though. Flexicrew is a regrettable reality, but an individual is not on the scheme for long. The benefits in Spain and Switzerland are also excellent too. I would argue that it is not just the French law making France an exception.
Are you really sure an architect doesn't pay best part of 120K to train? That figure you quote is after compound interest is taken into account, and even then is substantially inflated above reality. An architect student will study for at least 5 years unpaid. That doesn't come cheap and will require loans to pay Uni fees and living costs. That could very conceivably equate to about the same as the initial outlay a trainee pilot makes. They too then have to pay back interest across a long time frame. Can't think there is too much difference in the end.
Narrow Runway - I agree. It would be better if all easyJet employees had great benefits too. Aside from Flexicrew I believe that everyone is on a reasonable deal though. Flexicrew is a regrettable reality, but an individual is not on the scheme for long. The benefits in Spain and Switzerland are also excellent too. I would argue that it is not just the French law making France an exception.
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@ greenedgejet
Not true but you have completely missed the point here. It is the companies that CAN go for lowest priced option (low hour fatpl's) because the incumbent crews at these airlines have not stood up to their managements strategy (rush to the bottom). In the days when management were ex pilots this would not have happen.
There was nothing intrinsically wrong with CTC/ Oxford integrated training* it is just that the hiring mix has been slewed by bean counter management and crews - you let it happen, this blood is on your hands.
* this may not be the case now as it seems the bar to entry is being lowered to allow those who can rustle up the money as the only selection criteria. (this most definitely was not the case up until about 18 months ago). Not sure waht to say about Oxford as there was always a suspicion of rich brats hobby there.
CTC are the only route into Monarch, TCX, EZY and a host of others abroad.
There was nothing intrinsically wrong with CTC/ Oxford integrated training* it is just that the hiring mix has been slewed by bean counter management and crews - you let it happen, this blood is on your hands.
* this may not be the case now as it seems the bar to entry is being lowered to allow those who can rustle up the money as the only selection criteria. (this most definitely was not the case up until about 18 months ago). Not sure waht to say about Oxford as there was always a suspicion of rich brats hobby there.
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If you're not experienced and are a Modular fATPL, then I'm sorry but CTC has blocked your entry.
If anyone has any ideas how I can find employment when airlines keep 'lazily' dialling up CTC for their low hour bodies, then I'm all ears.
A few of the prominent airlines do occasionally take EXPERIENCED pilots from other sources; but if you're a Modular fATPL then you're pretty much screwed in the main nowadays. Not impossible, but pretty much.
If anyone has any ideas how I can find employment when airlines keep 'lazily' dialling up CTC for their low hour bodies, then I'm all ears.
A few of the prominent airlines do occasionally take EXPERIENCED pilots from other sources; but if you're a Modular fATPL then you're pretty much screwed in the main nowadays. Not impossible, but pretty much.
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Not true Poose.
If the money saved following a modular route (when compared with integrated) is used to buy some time on type then it might be argued you are placed rather ahead. Assuming 300 to 500 hours achieved.
If the money saved following a modular route (when compared with integrated) is used to buy some time on type then it might be argued you are placed rather ahead. Assuming 300 to 500 hours achieved.
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Monk,
I beg to differ because of the probable individuals involved.
Daddys precious 18 year old enrolled on an integrated course. Bought and paid for on the back of the remaining equity in his parents house.
My money is on the chap with some life experience; working hard to pay his own way throught the modular route whilst paying his own bills.
The chap I will fly with tomorrow is a licenced engineer that followed a modular route and hour built "mincing" around in Florida. A top fella.
Your Cassocks are in the vestry!!! Run along, your mums got your milk bottle and bed ready!
I beg to differ because of the probable individuals involved.
Daddys precious 18 year old enrolled on an integrated course. Bought and paid for on the back of the remaining equity in his parents house.
My money is on the chap with some life experience; working hard to pay his own way throught the modular route whilst paying his own bills.
The chap I will fly with tomorrow is a licenced engineer that followed a modular route and hour built "mincing" around in Florida. A top fella.
Your Cassocks are in the vestry!!! Run along, your mums got your milk bottle and bed ready!
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"EXPERIANCED" or EXPERIENCED?
I don't know who is correct about which is the better route to becoming EXPERIENCED, but:
The correct spelling is EXPERIENCED.
It could be that Monk360 is correct, but it is entirely subjective to suggest that 200 hours integrated training is better than 1000 hours "mincing" in a C150.
Plenty of DFO's, Chief Pilots and TRE's would attest to this fact.
It could be that as of this very moment, Monk360 is correct. But probably not forever.
However, in that BA/EK/QR/BY/VS interview he/she may be very, very incorrect indeed.
And if Monk360 is a CTC Cadet, perhaps that says it all.
The correct spelling is EXPERIENCED.
It could be that Monk360 is correct, but it is entirely subjective to suggest that 200 hours integrated training is better than 1000 hours "mincing" in a C150.
Plenty of DFO's, Chief Pilots and TRE's would attest to this fact.
It could be that as of this very moment, Monk360 is correct. But probably not forever.
However, in that BA/EK/QR/BY/VS interview he/she may be very, very incorrect indeed.
And if Monk360 is a CTC Cadet, perhaps that says it all.
Last edited by Narrow Runway; 4th Apr 2012 at 21:01.
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monk,
Your post offends me. I have 4000 hours and fly a 737 - I completed modular training, after weighing up both the options. I did not 'mince around' during training. I cannot comprehend how CTC/Oxford/FTE et al can charge nearly DOUBLE the price of most schools as they churn out pilots and there still be people to pay it. Most of the course fee would appear to be devoted to marketing in Airliner World with pretty pictures of pilots wearing said discussed Raybans.
During my hour building, I flew different length legs, I flew into different countries and different weathers, and different airfields. From what I know of most integrated schools, you have to have your flightplan 'approved' by some faceless office goon who gives you 'permission' to fly your chosen route assuming it's not too dangerous. You then 'mince around' as you put it, in the middle of Arizona where there are hardly ANY weather issues to contend with and pretend your learning, while you fly to nice paved runways that are over 1000m long. How is that learning? There is nothing better to teach you lessons than watching the low fuel light go on because you f***** up your headwind calculations and had to explain yourself to radar when you screw up their arrivals as you need priority. Mistakes are made and that is how you learn.
Contract agencies should be for short term pilot shortages, not to screw genuine pilots seeking a dream whilst fattening the wallets of management at airlines and the schools. I can't wait for the day when the UK bans this pseudo-employment farce that is FlexiCrew/Brookfield, and I say that as a contractor to an agency.
Horgy
Your post offends me. I have 4000 hours and fly a 737 - I completed modular training, after weighing up both the options. I did not 'mince around' during training. I cannot comprehend how CTC/Oxford/FTE et al can charge nearly DOUBLE the price of most schools as they churn out pilots and there still be people to pay it. Most of the course fee would appear to be devoted to marketing in Airliner World with pretty pictures of pilots wearing said discussed Raybans.
During my hour building, I flew different length legs, I flew into different countries and different weathers, and different airfields. From what I know of most integrated schools, you have to have your flightplan 'approved' by some faceless office goon who gives you 'permission' to fly your chosen route assuming it's not too dangerous. You then 'mince around' as you put it, in the middle of Arizona where there are hardly ANY weather issues to contend with and pretend your learning, while you fly to nice paved runways that are over 1000m long. How is that learning? There is nothing better to teach you lessons than watching the low fuel light go on because you f***** up your headwind calculations and had to explain yourself to radar when you screw up their arrivals as you need priority. Mistakes are made and that is how you learn.
Contract agencies should be for short term pilot shortages, not to screw genuine pilots seeking a dream whilst fattening the wallets of management at airlines and the schools. I can't wait for the day when the UK bans this pseudo-employment farce that is FlexiCrew/Brookfield, and I say that as a contractor to an agency.
Horgy