British Airways DEP Selection - THE lowdown Part 2
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bmi may be haemorraging money but when people talk about it being a basket case that even Lufthansa could not turn around, you need to know some facts.
Lufthansa has done very little in the 3 years. A point that is very sore for those of us working at bmi. We all thought Lufthansa would be the saviour after years of squander and minimal investment under the previous private owner. Yes Lufthansa have been covering the losses, yes they have put some money in terms of convertible loans and some cabin fit outs but not much more.
bmi mainline are carrying an enormous load with the costs of a remote head office and staff. Some of the staff sometimes haven't got a clue how to do their jobs ("Heathrow's 2nd favourite airline" advertising etc and we would give our eye teeth to get Branson's spin merchants). The despair and uselessness of certain departments is absolutely unbelieveable.
So when Lufthansa arrived we thought it would be a massive clean out and update of the archaic methods employed to do just about everything. Alas this was not to be the case. So for those that think that Lufthansa couldn't make a go of it, please think again. Lufthansa's heart was never really in it as far as most of the staff are concerned.
Lufthansa has done very little in the 3 years. A point that is very sore for those of us working at bmi. We all thought Lufthansa would be the saviour after years of squander and minimal investment under the previous private owner. Yes Lufthansa have been covering the losses, yes they have put some money in terms of convertible loans and some cabin fit outs but not much more.
bmi mainline are carrying an enormous load with the costs of a remote head office and staff. Some of the staff sometimes haven't got a clue how to do their jobs ("Heathrow's 2nd favourite airline" advertising etc and we would give our eye teeth to get Branson's spin merchants). The despair and uselessness of certain departments is absolutely unbelieveable.
So when Lufthansa arrived we thought it would be a massive clean out and update of the archaic methods employed to do just about everything. Alas this was not to be the case. So for those that think that Lufthansa couldn't make a go of it, please think again. Lufthansa's heart was never really in it as far as most of the staff are concerned.
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[QUOTE]As I predicted, not one single BA pilot will give up what he already has. It's called "
you Jack, I'm all right"./QUOTE]
JW411
We are making concessions, particularly those of us on short haul. We are taking a hit to work harder for the same cash to protect and maintain as best we can the terms and conditions of BA mainline whilst ensuring those who wish to join in the future are still joining BA (not the low-cost base driven alternative that would be spawned if we stuck our heads in the sand). Fling generalisations around as much as you please, frankly, your experience of what fruits militant unionisation may have brought during your time in the industry I'm afraid are no longer valid and are at best completely out-dated. We as a pilot workforce must play the hand we are dealt, and things in the industry are changing at a rapid pace. Be glad you experienced the good times.
The answer from some of our continental colleagues seems to be "just say no and see what happens". BASSA said no to everything for years to the point where they lost all sense of reason, and the result of such reticence to grasp reality has seen them reduced to an irrelevance. Their members have seen their career prospects destroyed and over time they will simply be recruited out of the company. SEPLA now have the same problem. BA pilots have an option to evolve or wither with the legacy cabin crew and our pilot counterparts in Iberia. It's a sandwich, no doubt, but we either move with the times or face extinction. IA will do nothing to halt the progress nor the direction of the industry, no matter how many barbs and accusations of self-serving spinelessness you may wish to throw our way!
you Jack, I'm all right"./QUOTE]JW411
We are making concessions, particularly those of us on short haul. We are taking a hit to work harder for the same cash to protect and maintain as best we can the terms and conditions of BA mainline whilst ensuring those who wish to join in the future are still joining BA (not the low-cost base driven alternative that would be spawned if we stuck our heads in the sand). Fling generalisations around as much as you please, frankly, your experience of what fruits militant unionisation may have brought during your time in the industry I'm afraid are no longer valid and are at best completely out-dated. We as a pilot workforce must play the hand we are dealt, and things in the industry are changing at a rapid pace. Be glad you experienced the good times.
The answer from some of our continental colleagues seems to be "just say no and see what happens". BASSA said no to everything for years to the point where they lost all sense of reason, and the result of such reticence to grasp reality has seen them reduced to an irrelevance. Their members have seen their career prospects destroyed and over time they will simply be recruited out of the company. SEPLA now have the same problem. BA pilots have an option to evolve or wither with the legacy cabin crew and our pilot counterparts in Iberia. It's a
sandwich, no doubt, but we either move with the times or face extinction. IA will do nothing to halt the progress nor the direction of the industry, no matter how many barbs and accusations of self-serving spinelessness you may wish to throw our way!
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"Can you just imagine a LH pilot acting as cabin staff in order to break a strike?"
The fact is Studi, the actions of BA pilots had nothing to do with the perceived financial state of the airline as perceived by a few BALPA reps, but a general policy of appeasement to maintain their status quo. Appeasement as Winston Churchill said "is like feeding a crocodile in the hope it will eat you last"
Appeasement as a strategy has never worked for long historically. Walsh can see that this relationship has run its course, and he has turned on his pilots in an act of filicide.
The fact is Studi, the actions of BA pilots had nothing to do with the perceived financial state of the airline as perceived by a few BALPA reps, but a general policy of appeasement to maintain their status quo. Appeasement as Winston Churchill said "is like feeding a crocodile in the hope it will eat you last"
Appeasement as a strategy has never worked for long historically. Walsh can see that this relationship has run its course, and he has turned on his pilots in an act of filicide.
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Count N,
You can do far better than that thin generalisation.
You can't presume to know each individual's motive, nor to assume an overriding motive for the collective. It may suit your mental well-being to assume that was what drove individuals, but the truth is much more nuanced and multi-faceted than all that. From speaking to those colleagues of mine who did volunteer, each and every one had a different reason, if not reasons.
Most were a genuine belief in the proximity of the company to bankruptcy due to imminent withdrawal of credit. I've heard a number of days quoted but it seems sure we weren't far away from the financial lifelines being withdrawn and then we'd have sunk. That's how, as perverse as it seems, we can suddenly buy airlines like BMI as once our credit was assured again, we gained a certain degree of liquidity.
Like it or not, a lot of people volunteered because they were pretty tired of the overwrought caricature drawn of themselves by such beloved characters as Admin from BASSA. I grant that's a vicious circle these days but the comms being spouted without regard for adult rules of engagement drove quite a few individuals into a " you" response to BASSA.
I'll freely admit, as well, I spoke to one or two distasteful individuals who volunteered just because they wanted to screw over the cabin crew community. I'll wager there were those from the ground who did the same too.
Just as you are, so are we all individuals, and we all sit at different places on the spectrum politically and with our regard to the company and how we perceive it. You might think that the flight crew community "had it in" for you in the past few years and this is some kind of overdue natural justice. Just don't labour under the impression that any schadenfreude you feel like revelling in is applicable to everyone. A good deal of us are, and have been constantly, aware that it's always someone's turn next - and we're just another unit cost in the airline. Always have been, always will be.
The difference that remains, as I alluded to earlier, is that the manner in which you conducted your dispute left you with your backs against the wall and has left you with a closed employment group which right now has no prospects of growth (regardless of the desirability of same, ref your PM). We're under no illusions that either of these options is a "win" for us but, it's about being rational about what's achievable and trying to ensure we're still in as good a shape as we can be for the next round of cuts, and the round after that.
I suspect we can agree that, if nothing else, there will be cuts again. And again. As long as we maintain a single seniority group of flight crew, we're a damned sight better off than with no new entrants into our group. That's why this isn't quite the apocalyptic visitation of Walsh that some of your colleagues seem to think it is. Don't get me wrong, the filling in the sandwich is still decidedly off, but it's not quite crap, if you follow my crude comparison.
Make of it what you will
You can do far better than that thin generalisation.
You can't presume to know each individual's motive, nor to assume an overriding motive for the collective. It may suit your mental well-being to assume that was what drove individuals, but the truth is much more nuanced and multi-faceted than all that. From speaking to those colleagues of mine who did volunteer, each and every one had a different reason, if not reasons.
Most were a genuine belief in the proximity of the company to bankruptcy due to imminent withdrawal of credit. I've heard a number of days quoted but it seems sure we weren't far away from the financial lifelines being withdrawn and then we'd have sunk. That's how, as perverse as it seems, we can suddenly buy airlines like BMI as once our credit was assured again, we gained a certain degree of liquidity.
Like it or not, a lot of people volunteered because they were pretty tired of the overwrought caricature drawn of themselves by such beloved characters as Admin from BASSA. I grant that's a vicious circle these days but the comms being spouted without regard for adult rules of engagement drove quite a few individuals into a "
you" response to BASSA. I'll freely admit, as well, I spoke to one or two distasteful individuals who volunteered just because they wanted to screw over the cabin crew community. I'll wager there were those from the ground who did the same too.
Just as you are, so are we all individuals, and we all sit at different places on the spectrum politically and with our regard to the company and how we perceive it. You might think that the flight crew community "had it in" for you in the past few years and this is some kind of overdue natural justice. Just don't labour under the impression that any schadenfreude you feel like revelling in is applicable to everyone. A good deal of us are, and have been constantly, aware that it's always someone's turn next - and we're just another unit cost in the airline. Always have been, always will be.
The difference that remains, as I alluded to earlier, is that the manner in which you conducted your dispute left you with your backs against the wall and has left you with a closed employment group which right now has no prospects of growth (regardless of the desirability of same, ref your PM). We're under no illusions that either of these options is a "win" for us but, it's about being rational about what's achievable and trying to ensure we're still in as good a shape as we can be for the next round of cuts, and the round after that.
I suspect we can agree that, if nothing else, there will be cuts again. And again. As long as we maintain a single seniority group of flight crew, we're a damned sight better off than with no new entrants into our group. That's why this isn't quite the apocalyptic visitation of Walsh that some of your colleagues seem to think it is. Don't get me wrong, the filling in the sandwich is still decidedly off, but it's not quite crap, if you follow my crude comparison.
Make of it what you will
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Stelios 1984
Welcome to the discussion. Reading your previous posts in which you considered a Ryanair Brookfield contract fair, do you not think that by BA going down this path, that this will be a slippery slope that the management will use continually to erode T & Cs?
The concern that an argument is being manipulated out of a scenario which should not be directly held against the pilots concerns me. The full facts are not being given, I am told that a BALPA PN has not been involved in the discussions between the management and the CC, which leads me to suspect that there is more to this than meet the eye. If this is correct then it would lead me to suspect that either BALPA do not wish to be a part of these discussions or that the CC are taking an enormous leap of faith which if not fully tested by BALPAs legal team could end up coming back to haunt pilots for years to come.
The two Companies Union CCs should be talking together in order to ensure that one group is not played off against the other. At the moment if we DODAR, can we really be sure that we have fully "Diagnosed" the situation or is this just what the management wish us to believe? If not then our mental model is flawed. I'm not paranoid but equally I do not enjoy being played second fiddle.
There is potential here for a serious shake down of the BA seniority system, which could be challenged if the two pilot groups feel agrieved by the terms of the integration. Seniority is part of the framework by which a BA pilot's career depends. This is why I think it is imperative that the BACC don't just get into bed with the management and ensure that the full picture is learned before agreeing to anything.
I appreciate that the holdpoolers have been swimming for a considerable time now and that they are getting tired. However, it is crucial that all avenues are explored first prior to lighting the wrong touch fuse, which could bring down all the hard fought agreements over the years both at BA and in the airline industry in the UK.
Welcome to the discussion. Reading your previous posts in which you considered a Ryanair Brookfield contract fair, do you not think that by BA going down this path, that this will be a slippery slope that the management will use continually to erode T & Cs?
The concern that an argument is being manipulated out of a scenario which should not be directly held against the pilots concerns me. The full facts are not being given, I am told that a BALPA PN has not been involved in the discussions between the management and the CC, which leads me to suspect that there is more to this than meet the eye. If this is correct then it would lead me to suspect that either BALPA do not wish to be a part of these discussions or that the CC are taking an enormous leap of faith which if not fully tested by BALPAs legal team could end up coming back to haunt pilots for years to come.
The two Companies Union CCs should be talking together in order to ensure that one group is not played off against the other. At the moment if we DODAR, can we really be sure that we have fully "Diagnosed" the situation or is this just what the management wish us to believe? If not then our mental model is flawed. I'm not paranoid but equally I do not enjoy being played second fiddle.
There is potential here for a serious shake down of the BA seniority system, which could be challenged if the two pilot groups feel agrieved by the terms of the integration. Seniority is part of the framework by which a BA pilot's career depends. This is why I think it is imperative that the BACC don't just get into bed with the management and ensure that the full picture is learned before agreeing to anything.
I appreciate that the holdpoolers have been swimming for a considerable time now and that they are getting tired. However, it is crucial that all avenues are explored first prior to lighting the wrong touch fuse, which could bring down all the hard fought agreements over the years both at BA and in the airline industry in the UK.
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thread drift
a very friendly reminder this is titled:
British Airways DEP Selection - THE lowdown Part 2
for those wanting to discuss BMI / Lufthansa union etc. is there any chance you could do this in a separate thread?!
whilst your points are interesting, there are very few takeaways that are constructive for the direct purpose of DEP selection.
British Airways DEP Selection - THE lowdown Part 2
for those wanting to discuss BMI / Lufthansa union etc. is there any chance you could do this in a separate thread?!
whilst your points are interesting, there are very few takeaways that are constructive for the direct purpose of DEP selection.
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Hi all,
I can now empathise with the missile in the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galxy when it was turned into a sperm whale by the infinite improbability drive and then quickly died when hitting the planet below. Its only thought was:
"Oh no, not again"
regards
I can now empathise with the missile in the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galxy when it was turned into a sperm whale by the infinite improbability drive and then quickly died when hitting the planet below. Its only thought was:
"Oh no, not again"
regards
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I reckon we will be offered a course. BMI will bring 27 odd extra aircraft. These slots have to be used, either way they will operate separate to BA for a good few months. Even if they are transferred to LH this means more crews. Aside for from the recent pay/t&c announcement this will lead to expansion. It has to, why else would BA do it. BMI will not stop us getting start dates, now on the other hand the EURO collapse will put an end to our aspirations..........for sure!!!!!!
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Hi,
I think the offers will still come although not with the same pay and t&c's advised during assessment. With the memo from Balpa it quite clear that they wish to preserve the t&c's of CURRENT Ba pilots and those from bmi will slip in beside them on thier own seniority contract and pay. Now without depressing the hell out of everyone, new joiners ie, those without a date of joining(signed contracts do not stipulate date of joining as courses do move) will fit in after them. So technically 300 pilots could join the seniority list above you as thier date of joining will be the day of integration.
Now for me, wrong side of 30, I'll never see pay point 34 nor do I think I will see a longhaul command until my twilight years and that's if I continue to hold my class one till then.
I applied Oct '10, been in the pool since June '11. The goalposts have changed. I have the wrong type at the wrong time. It is now pretty much a reality I will earn at least £100,000 less than someone at the same assessment, on the same day, at the same time with the same experience.
Best of luck to all those in the pool!
I think the offers will still come although not with the same pay and t&c's advised during assessment. With the memo from Balpa it quite clear that they wish to preserve the t&c's of CURRENT Ba pilots and those from bmi will slip in beside them on thier own seniority contract and pay. Now without depressing the hell out of everyone, new joiners ie, those without a date of joining(signed contracts do not stipulate date of joining as courses do move) will fit in after them. So technically 300 pilots could join the seniority list above you as thier date of joining will be the day of integration.
Now for me, wrong side of 30, I'll never see pay point 34 nor do I think I will see a longhaul command until my twilight years and that's if I continue to hold my class one till then.
I applied Oct '10, been in the pool since June '11. The goalposts have changed. I have the wrong type at the wrong time. It is now pretty much a reality I will earn at least £100,000 less than someone at the same assessment, on the same day, at the same time with the same experience.
Best of luck to all those in the pool!
Last edited by Kempus; 11th Jan 2012 at 16:35. Reason: New info on contracts
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Kempus I feel your pain!!
I was very disappointed when this latest shake up was announced. I have taught long and hard about it!! Worked out the pros and cons over and over.....Even with this reduction BA stills come in as the only option. Well the other option is Emirates. For a Uk base and the chance to fly different aircraft for reasonable cash it's still untouchable. I am a bit younger than you but I wouldn't give up heart just yet.
The PP34 is a given, the date the merger will happen is still unknown. This could be towards the end of the year......you might just have those 300 behind you
I'm only in the pool since OCT and I was told to expect an AUG start.....who knows"
I was very disappointed when this latest shake up was announced. I have taught long and hard about it!! Worked out the pros and cons over and over.....Even with this reduction BA stills come in as the only option. Well the other option is Emirates. For a Uk base and the chance to fly different aircraft for reasonable cash it's still untouchable. I am a bit younger than you but I wouldn't give up heart just yet.
The PP34 is a given, the date the merger will happen is still unknown. This could be towards the end of the year......you might just have those 300 behind you
I'm only in the pool since OCT and I was told to expect an AUG start.....who knows"
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I applied Oct '10, been in the pool since June '11. The goalposts have changed. I have the wrong type at the wrong time. It is now pretty much a reality I will earn at least £100,000 less than someone at the same assessment, on the same day, at the same time with the same experience.
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I'm not asking what the T&C's will be, we all know they will be worse than current pilots, rather if ANYONE (outside BMI) will actually start at BA in the next few years. Seems unlikely. I would rather have communication from BA saying recruitment is finished than be left dangling like this.
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Hi all,
The email was for those in the hold pool. Main points:
-Recruiting continuing as normal for BA.
-Shortest pool times for those with 75/76 ratings
-Explanation of new T&Cs and PP34. If you already have a contract you lucked in if not tough.
-Pay point 1 now £50,800.
-68 contracts offered already for 2012
-contracts offered just over 3 months before start.
-courses now penciled in until Aug '12 but will move around.
-Holdpooler will now get update every 2 months.
Regards
The email was for those in the hold pool. Main points:
-Recruiting continuing as normal for BA.
-Shortest pool times for those with 75/76 ratings
-Explanation of new T&Cs and PP34. If you already have a contract you lucked in if not tough.
-Pay point 1 now £50,800.
-68 contracts offered already for 2012
-contracts offered just over 3 months before start.
-courses now penciled in until Aug '12 but will move around.
-Holdpooler will now get update every 2 months.
Regards