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BA Pilots Ponder BMI Proposal

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BA Pilots Ponder BMI Proposal

Old 19th Jan 2012, 10:42
  #241 (permalink)  
 
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Count, sorry .... Duncan, so what makes you think you are qualified to comment on this subject? Talk about a chip on the shoulder! Its a whole potato field in Germany that you have there. Please, your blathering is not welcome because this really isn't your strong subject, and your 'arguments' are founded on deeply flawed concepts. Your twisted view of the world just doesn't exist where everybody else is standing.
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 11:00
  #242 (permalink)  
 
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I have probably missed it somewhere in the previous pages but please clarify this: what is to stop Walsh announcing that on 1 Jan 2013, IAG will create a new airline BA Express plc, or whatever, that will begin operations with 20 x A320 acquired/leased from British Airways and recruitment for the aforementioned airline begins on 1 June 2012 Aircrew affected by the withdrawal of the A320s from the BA fleet will be given the opportunity to apply for positions in the new airline?
Legally there is nothing to stop IAG doing just this.

However, the record of concilliation from BALPA and its members is, over the past years, exemplary. The pilot cost base has changed constantly to bring it into line with modern standards as a relatively fixed accountable asset. Whilst it remains a well paid job the ability to attract the right people has cost savings attached in the form of lower training costs and higher retention.

IAG would have to judge very closely what the potential savings of a 'BA Express' formed against the backdrop of inevitable industrial action taken against seeing the terms and conditions of current BA employees losing hulls and routes would be.

The agreement to take BMI into BA makes it far more difficult for IAG to form BA Express in any other form. The lack of space at Heathrow, the lack of crews and the lack of slots would make it a very costly excercise. As a direct contributor to the terms of Mainline BA IAG could not 'lease' BA owned aircraft to BA Express, they would have to be flown by Mainline pilots iaw Scope. The direct impact on the future prospects of BA and the recently merged BMI crews (all crew members) would be directly affected by the formation of BA Express and there, I personally think, you would see an end to goodwill if IAG were so hell bent on renaging on previous dealings.

If this were to pass then IAG would need to consider the costs of the BA fleet being grounded. Through the auspices of BAPLA the BA pilot community has continued to accept the need for change, productivity and rationalisation. This has been done on a basis of continued negotiation and a very close working relationship. From the GMM that I attended I came away with a very clear impression that both IAG and BA want the integration (if they didn't why offer it?), they want a cohesive product to offer the public and they are critically aware that going back on these agreements will, in the eyes of the Pilots, the Law and the public, leave them in a difficult position.

So, in short, there is nothing to stop IAG forming BA Express, however, if they do, it could potentially be a very expensive startup as it would have a direct impact on the future earnings potential of mainline after we have given so much to help the company survive.

We have patience and a clear understanding of the business. But concilliation only goes so far and must be a two way excercise.
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 11:46
  #243 (permalink)  
 
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'IAG would have to judge very closely what the potential savings of a 'BA Express' formed against the backdrop of inevitable industrial action taken against seeing the terms and conditions of current BA employees losing hulls and routes would be'

and do you seriously see WW worrying about that ?
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 12:09
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, I think he would.

Whilst it is fairly easy to justify losses attributed to strike action from an employee group who have consistently resisted change it is quite a bit more difficult for a CEO to justify losses attributed to an employee group who have consistently backed the company through difficult times.

The gulf between Iberia and their savings requirements was huge, thus Iberia Express happened. IAG are asking for a 5% short haul productivity increase in order for SH to break even. That is achievable.

To deliberately provoke IA from BAPLA would be difficult do defend to both the board and the shareholders.
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 12:13
  #245 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Wirbelsturm View Post


IAG would have to judge very closely what the potential savings of a 'BA Express' formed against the backdrop of inevitable industrial action taken against seeing the terms and conditions of current BA employees losing hulls and routes would be.
You are kidding aren't you? You would damage the airline financially just to selfishly pursue your own agenda? There would be no legitimacy at all for this type of industrial action, and besides the pilot community is split and haven't got the stomach for it anyway.

Best to stick with appeasement.
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 12:24
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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You are kidding aren't you? You would damage the airline financially just to selfishly pursue your own agenda? There would be no legitimacy at all for this type of industrial action, and besides the pilot community is split and haven't got the stomach for it anyway.

Best to stick with appeasement.
Of course, otherwise it's called knowing when and where to pick your battles.

There would be no legitimacy at all for this type of industrial action
Really? I fail to see where you get that from? Transferring of assets away from the main company to a lo-cost starter at the Mainline base after productivity changes have been agreed? Reduction of perceived terms and conditions irrespective of changes given for profitability? No legitimacy? There would be no legitimacy in forecasting a future threat, when it is actually occuring then there is legitimacy. What is that course teaching you 'Count'?


I'm sure you'll be at the head of the VP queue.

Best leave a bit of time off for the 18 month qualification course though and good luck with the ATPL exams.

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Old 19th Jan 2012, 12:28
  #247 (permalink)  
 
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I think you'll find the 'Count' failed to get into Hamble in the 1970's. Still bitter, he had to settle for being a steward...
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 12:38
  #248 (permalink)  
 
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Edited so as not to sink to a common level!

Quite correct Fate Hunter, thank you.

Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 19th Jan 2012 at 13:16.
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 13:34
  #249 (permalink)  
 
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Well put.

Everyone at bmi knows that things have to change and are prepared for virtually anything really.

Aviation is such a competitive business now and the margins very tight, that with legacy carriers like BA, there is always going to be a struggle when you see companies like RYR and EZy doing what appears to be the same job for a lot less. (We all know how different they are in reality really though.)

Sometimes you need to be pragmatic, but the best solution is for the company to work together and try to work for the best for everyone, company, employees, shareholders etc.

As long as everyone is doing their bit and no-one group is being victimised, then progress can be made.

It's a tough job though when you have people's livelihoods at stake though and it's obvious how emotive this sort of thing can be.

Will bmi be turned into BA lite or will it be a standalone unit? No idea. I know what I'd prefer from my point of view, but that might not tally with what IAG want.
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 15:23
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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(We all know how different they are in reality though)

So what precisely are the differences between EZY/RYR and BA on short haul and are they that significant?
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 15:57
  #251 (permalink)  
 
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This is hardly the place for a debate about the differences between legacy and lo-cost carriers, but I'll just say that the differences as a passenger are relatively minor, but the difference between a legacy carrier and a lo-cost is absolutely vast in terms of how they go about their business behind the scenes.

Yes they fly aeroplanes from A to B, but other than that, it's a different world.
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 19:05
  #252 (permalink)  
 
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I was going to vote "No" but The Count's drivelling, ill informed garbage has made me change my mind so I have pressed the button on "Yes"!
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Old 20th Jan 2012, 12:37
  #253 (permalink)  
 
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Lufthansa May Sell Bmibaby to Intro of Germany - Bloomberg
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Old 20th Jan 2012, 17:29
  #254 (permalink)  
 
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Vote NO, re-negotiate
We're going round in circles here: Voting "no" will not lead to further negotiations.
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Old 20th Jan 2012, 18:44
  #255 (permalink)  
 
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Studi is only protecting his own backside by throwing every man, woman and child infront of his own position in a bid to stave off change in DLH.

You cannot stirke over the formation of a new company as was proven during the Openskies dispute.

You cannot strike on supposition that future changes will affect you terms and conditions. As was also proven during the Openskies dispute.

You can strike if a your company transfers assets to a lower cost group company which will directly affect your terms and conditions due outsourcing.

That's how it is in the UK. Perhaps not in Mighty Deutschland but we're stuck with it.

What is there to prove that Willie Walsh won't honor his agreement with the CEO of BA and go ahead with BA Express after giving explicit assurances to Keith Williams that IAG would only integrate? Do you have proof somewhere that he will? I have met Willie on several occasions and I have to admit that I certainly trust him more than an anonymous internet poster who has nothing to lose whatever the outcome. Perhaps DLH will outsource everything to Austrian Arrows? Legally there's nothing to stop them.

We've discussed this before Studi and I disagree with you. I won't be drawn into it again.
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Old 20th Jan 2012, 19:22
  #256 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Count BASSA
Unfortunately Wirblsturm, you are not qualified to comment on the reason for the BA dispute with its cabin crew.
So if we can't talk about past industrial disputes with BA, exactly what makes you qualified to talk about our future with BA?
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Old 20th Jan 2012, 20:02
  #257 (permalink)  
 
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How do you know? Wiggy = Willy?
ROFL, but thanks for the complement.

A bit of research elsewhere on this forum would show otherwise, and anyway I'm not Orish and I loath Guinness: )
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Old 21st Jan 2012, 14:02
  #258 (permalink)  
 
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So to sum up after 15 pages, if its a no vote then here comes BA Express and if its a yes vote then the mainline pilots have worsened there terms and conditions and have no guarantee that BA Express wont be set up anyway. So is it fair to say that BA Express is high in BA Management minds and that a lot of work has been put into it behind the scenes? After all Willie did not just come up with the idea over tapas in Madrid one friday afternoon! So a yes vote gives Willie everything he wants, a major workgroup on reduced terms and conditions in mainline, and also with BA Express set up another workgroup on reduced terms and conditions up holding the BA name. Only one winner here Willie Walsh.
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Old 21st Jan 2012, 14:17
  #259 (permalink)  
 
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Marlow - you would think after reading 15 pages you would understand the politics / mechanism / protections behind the vote but you clearly don't - Why not - How can I / We explain it in simpler language to you to you?

Situation NOW is that IAG can set up BA Express using BMI as soon as they purchase it and there is nothing we can do about......

.... BUT BA / BA pilots have the opportunity to stop this happening with BMI aircraft and crews by incorporating them into mainline AT A PRICE - lower T&Cs - Simple. Once / if absorbed into mainline then our SCOPE agreement with BA means all 100 seat plus A/C owned / operated by BA must be flown by mainline. If the company try to circumvent this then we all strike = not cost effective to do. IAG can buy another company/aircraft/slots and set up BA Express BUT NOT with the existing BA aircraft / crews and slots. Can I elaborate / help you any more?
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Old 21st Jan 2012, 14:46
  #260 (permalink)  
 
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Jockster thats all well and good IF you were to strike over it, but reading the posts on here it seems that most people feel that a downgrade in the terms and conditions is the price to pay for keeping the status quo in the company and to carry on doing what they are doing, albeit on reduced T&Cs . BA Express has obviously had a lot of thought put in to it over a period of time and is not something thought up quickly so its not going to go away. I applaud your faith in the scope agreement .
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