Where has it all gone wrong?
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I met a chap recently who had just finished all his training.
Great young bloke, somebody who I think has great potential.
Good cockpit management in the Sim, not a bad pair of hands, and a good attitude.
He had never stalled, and never spun, and from now on will never really fly again since he just got a job flying for Ryanair rather than working his way up through the fun stuff.
His piloting, rather than cockpit management skills are only going one way from here no-matter how much other good wisdom he accretes.
Sad really, because he will probably never enjoy flying as much as he would have in times past.
The simple fact is that there are some areas of aviation that have far better terms and conditions than in days of old, and funny old thing, they are the areas that are actually tricky and require skills and training.
Offshore work, SAR and waterbombing are examples.
They involve real flying skill rather than 200hrs and a certificate and thus are more immune to the plague of kids with rich parents/stupid bank managers.
Great young bloke, somebody who I think has great potential.
Good cockpit management in the Sim, not a bad pair of hands, and a good attitude.
He had never stalled, and never spun, and from now on will never really fly again since he just got a job flying for Ryanair rather than working his way up through the fun stuff.
His piloting, rather than cockpit management skills are only going one way from here no-matter how much other good wisdom he accretes.
Sad really, because he will probably never enjoy flying as much as he would have in times past.
The simple fact is that there are some areas of aviation that have far better terms and conditions than in days of old, and funny old thing, they are the areas that are actually tricky and require skills and training.
Offshore work, SAR and waterbombing are examples.
They involve real flying skill rather than 200hrs and a certificate and thus are more immune to the plague of kids with rich parents/stupid bank managers.
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73addict
Ironic that your world believes that Flight Sims are the same as real flying in terms of emergency training.
My world still requires us to do it for real.
Just remind me the last time you did an actual V1 cut under the hood?
Just remind me the last time you flew at VMCA?
Just remind me the last time you pulled to the stick push or carried out an inflight shutdown and relight?
I agree.
Flight Sims don't really count as flying.
PENKO
I agree, not rocket science but enough to keep you working the brain cells.
I sometimes think I am worse in a glass cockpit because the arousal is so low. This is compounded by the tendency to believe that these modern systems wont fail so you trust them too much, whereas some old stuff I have flown failed all the time so required constant monitoring keeping you up to speed in parallel with the systems ready to take over.
Again, I am in agreement over the initial systems learning being perhaps much harder and possibly too hard if a quick glance at the Air France A330 thread is anything to go by. Lots of Bus pilots on there who seem to disagree about most things.
Ironic that your world believes that Flight Sims are the same as real flying in terms of emergency training.
My world still requires us to do it for real.
Just remind me the last time you did an actual V1 cut under the hood?
Just remind me the last time you flew at VMCA?
Just remind me the last time you pulled to the stick push or carried out an inflight shutdown and relight?
I agree.
Flight Sims don't really count as flying.
PENKO
I agree, not rocket science but enough to keep you working the brain cells.
I sometimes think I am worse in a glass cockpit because the arousal is so low. This is compounded by the tendency to believe that these modern systems wont fail so you trust them too much, whereas some old stuff I have flown failed all the time so required constant monitoring keeping you up to speed in parallel with the systems ready to take over.
Again, I am in agreement over the initial systems learning being perhaps much harder and possibly too hard if a quick glance at the Air France A330 thread is anything to go by. Lots of Bus pilots on there who seem to disagree about most things.
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Off you go again, I am sensing a massive crater sized chip on your shoulder here concerning rich parents! For you information I know a huge number of people who self funded their way through training with massive bank loans and nothing to do with their parents. They are still paying their loans back after a good number of years.
I think you will find the desire to fly is the dream and the driving force and some people are go getters and others just complain about the how unfair life is and how they have been wronged in some way.
Oh and I don't know much about Ryanair but I believe there is quite a bit of hand flying involved. There certainly was in charter especially in the Greek isles.
Difference between your world and the one you are ranting about and insulting is simple. In our world we have £50+million aircraft flying with 190+ passengers onboard and it is just not practical to go out and fly these aircraft around doing what you love to show off about. Again FYI most of us will do a V1 cut in the sim every 6months! I know not in the aircraft but having had a real life one it is easier in real life than in the sim! FACT.
Lets compare apples with apples shall we and not try a p*****g contest.
I think you will find the desire to fly is the dream and the driving force and some people are go getters and others just complain about the how unfair life is and how they have been wronged in some way.
Oh and I don't know much about Ryanair but I believe there is quite a bit of hand flying involved. There certainly was in charter especially in the Greek isles.
Difference between your world and the one you are ranting about and insulting is simple. In our world we have £50+million aircraft flying with 190+ passengers onboard and it is just not practical to go out and fly these aircraft around doing what you love to show off about. Again FYI most of us will do a V1 cut in the sim every 6months! I know not in the aircraft but having had a real life one it is easier in real life than in the sim! FACT.
Lets compare apples with apples shall we and not try a p*****g contest.
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"I wonder what could possibly be the reason for there being more pilots!!!"
Think what you have just said through.....
In the old days, lets say we flew 5 million pax from gatwick and needed 10000 pilots (imaginary number)
Now we fly 31 million so should need 60000 odd pilots.
Good so far?
However, we have even more pilots to create a glut!
It is now so easy to get a licence that we have well over 6 times as many even though the terms and conditions are vastly worse for the majority.
You have just proved my point.
"I wonder what could possibly be the reason for there being more pilots!!!"
Think what you have just said through.....
In the old days, lets say we flew 5 million pax from gatwick and needed 10000 pilots (imaginary number)
Now we fly 31 million so should need 60000 odd pilots.
Good so far?
However, we have even more pilots to create a glut!
It is now so easy to get a licence that we have well over 6 times as many even though the terms and conditions are vastly worse for the majority.
You have just proved my point.
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"I am sensing a massive crater sized chip on your shoulder here concerning rich parents! For you information I know a huge number of people who self funded their way through training with massive bank loans and nothing to do with their parents. They are still paying their loans back after a good number of year"
No chip, I have rich parents, and I did say "rich parents/stupid bank managers" which seems to cover your statement.
I am on this thread because I despise the whingeing on this pprune about how hard life is. We get what we deserve. If you want better pay, then get a skill others don't.
"Oh and I don't know much about Ryanair but I believe there is quite a bit of hand flying involved. "
I don't think you and I quite have the same picture of what constitutes hand flying.
I am not suggesting that an airliner is the place for proper hand flying, but I do believe that at some stage in an airline pilots career he should have done a bit of pulling the wings off.
No chip, I have rich parents, and I did say "rich parents/stupid bank managers" which seems to cover your statement.
I am on this thread because I despise the whingeing on this pprune about how hard life is. We get what we deserve. If you want better pay, then get a skill others don't.
"Oh and I don't know much about Ryanair but I believe there is quite a bit of hand flying involved. "
I don't think you and I quite have the same picture of what constitutes hand flying.
I am not suggesting that an airliner is the place for proper hand flying, but I do believe that at some stage in an airline pilots career he should have done a bit of pulling the wings off.
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"I know not in the aircraft but having had a real life one it is easier in real life than in the sim! FACT"
Damn.
Now you have me at a disadvantage.
I don't have a special key on my keboard that makes something incontrivertable just by typing "fact" in capitals
Wait, let me try it.
I am hung like a baboon FACT
Hmm, doesn't seem to be working.....
Incidentally, nothing screams "loser" quite like starting a pissing contest and then crying off when you lose it.
Nice edit of your first post in reply to me by the way.
Damn.
Now you have me at a disadvantage.
I don't have a special key on my keboard that makes something incontrivertable just by typing "fact" in capitals
Wait, let me try it.
I am hung like a baboon FACT
Hmm, doesn't seem to be working.....
Incidentally, nothing screams "loser" quite like starting a pissing contest and then crying off when you lose it.
Nice edit of your first post in reply to me by the way.
Oh I do love pprune debates. I finally realise why my wife watches Emmerendersoakdalestreet every night. Priceless.
Seeing as this has become a comedy thread, I see it this way:-
In the old days we had double-d clutches. It was tricky to master a mere gear change. You got a driving licence by winking at the postman but only the true greats got to drive the E-Type. Everyone else drove inspired driver's cars like the original Mini, but we were all rally-drivers in our own minds. Driving slowly was fun and driving fast even more so on the empty roads, but sometimes incredibly hard work because of the poor quality road surface.
Getting a job flying a Boeing 737 is like buying a Ferrari 458 in the modern day. Any moron can step out of their BSM Corsa after a driving test, rob their folks or borrow some loot and slide into into the driving seat of a high performance and technologically advanced supercar. I'm willing to bet that they'll be able to drive it safely enough to avoid crashing on the way to Tesco with their Granny in the passenger seat.
Very few people could drive the same Ferrari 458 at high speed around a tricky racetrack that requires Lewis Hamilton handling skills without making acquaintence with a grandstand or two. But does that stop lottery winners and footballers from buying them? No, because very few of those Ferraris will ever see a race track. They spend their lives on busy but anodine public roads being driven very sedately for fear of getting a ticket or crashing into roadabouts in the wet. Do we all need to be Lewis Hamiltons?
It's the same in flying and that's the reason why.... Oh hell... I've forgotten where my analogy was heading... balls.
PS: I prefer things the way they were in the heyday, but I live in 2011 and am making the most of my opportunities now.
Seeing as this has become a comedy thread, I see it this way:-
In the old days we had double-d clutches. It was tricky to master a mere gear change. You got a driving licence by winking at the postman but only the true greats got to drive the E-Type. Everyone else drove inspired driver's cars like the original Mini, but we were all rally-drivers in our own minds. Driving slowly was fun and driving fast even more so on the empty roads, but sometimes incredibly hard work because of the poor quality road surface.
Getting a job flying a Boeing 737 is like buying a Ferrari 458 in the modern day. Any moron can step out of their BSM Corsa after a driving test, rob their folks or borrow some loot and slide into into the driving seat of a high performance and technologically advanced supercar. I'm willing to bet that they'll be able to drive it safely enough to avoid crashing on the way to Tesco with their Granny in the passenger seat.
Very few people could drive the same Ferrari 458 at high speed around a tricky racetrack that requires Lewis Hamilton handling skills without making acquaintence with a grandstand or two. But does that stop lottery winners and footballers from buying them? No, because very few of those Ferraris will ever see a race track. They spend their lives on busy but anodine public roads being driven very sedately for fear of getting a ticket or crashing into roadabouts in the wet. Do we all need to be Lewis Hamiltons?
It's the same in flying and that's the reason why.... Oh hell... I've forgotten where my analogy was heading... balls.
PS: I prefer things the way they were in the heyday, but I live in 2011 and am making the most of my opportunities now.
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Tourist,
...good speech.
It seems that, these days, all you need to be a "good" "pilot" is an encyclopedic knowledge of the Ops manua, a willingness to follow rules without thinking and an ability to programme an FMS to fly a hold.
The children of the magenta line make me cry at night.
Mike, when you need to drive your Ferrari like Mr Hamilton will you be able to if you haven't been taught the required skill?
To continue your analogy airline flying is, I agree, mostly on public roads but every now and again you'll find yourself screaming up to Maggots at 600 knots. You'd appreciate having the ability to sort it out then wouldn't you!
The airlines/aviation world have taken the gamble that we don't need good pilots anymore because the systems so rarely go wrong.
I think that they are wrong, but the people who set the standards for licences and type ratings seem to disagree.
I think that they are wrong, but the people who set the standards for licences and type ratings seem to disagree.
It seems that, these days, all you need to be a "good" "pilot" is an encyclopedic knowledge of the Ops manua, a willingness to follow rules without thinking and an ability to programme an FMS to fly a hold.
The children of the magenta line make me cry at night.
Mike, when you need to drive your Ferrari like Mr Hamilton will you be able to if you haven't been taught the required skill?
To continue your analogy airline flying is, I agree, mostly on public roads but every now and again you'll find yourself screaming up to Maggots at 600 knots. You'd appreciate having the ability to sort it out then wouldn't you!
Yep, you're absolutely right! 
I have said, from the very start of my time on this website, that I would prefer to have started off in light aircraft, flown air taxis, twotters, the ATR etc. In fact, I never had a dream to fly jets. I trained as a pilot not for the money or glamour but for the flying. But I am a realist and as I came to this as a second career, my responsibilities and better half's needs dictated my career path.
I'm unhappy at being labelled a child of the magenta line and it's primarily because the truth hurts. I know I don't have the raw flying skills I'd like to have. However, I am doing my utmost in my line flying to 'teach myself' because I know the system won't. 1500 hours on type and I'm even more acutely aware of my limitations, but the key is that 'I am aware' and I am doing something about it.
Happy flying and motoring.
I have said, from the very start of my time on this website, that I would prefer to have started off in light aircraft, flown air taxis, twotters, the ATR etc. In fact, I never had a dream to fly jets. I trained as a pilot not for the money or glamour but for the flying. But I am a realist and as I came to this as a second career, my responsibilities and better half's needs dictated my career path.
I'm unhappy at being labelled a child of the magenta line and it's primarily because the truth hurts. I know I don't have the raw flying skills I'd like to have. However, I am doing my utmost in my line flying to 'teach myself' because I know the system won't. 1500 hours on type and I'm even more acutely aware of my limitations, but the key is that 'I am aware' and I am doing something about it.
Happy flying and motoring.
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Where has it all gone wrong….
Airlines are creating Microsoft pilots rather than aviators who can’t fly without assistance of computers.
Too many young entrants, many whom have been sponsored by family members are willing to work to poor terms and conditions and pay.
Oh… it’s not just the newbies… you can also thank the unions in the US who have rolled over on the industry and their fellow colleagues too… and what for… to concede to their lords and masters and take pay cuts, termination of retirement benefits, accepting medical insurance worse than that could be received by medicare. And the negotiators??? That’s even better… former union MECs working for those lord and masters responsible for negotiating those pay and benefits cuts.. Unfortunately, the disease is spreading around the globe, and there is no inoculation for cure.
Airlines are creating Microsoft pilots rather than aviators who can’t fly without assistance of computers.
Too many young entrants, many whom have been sponsored by family members are willing to work to poor terms and conditions and pay.
Oh… it’s not just the newbies… you can also thank the unions in the US who have rolled over on the industry and their fellow colleagues too… and what for… to concede to their lords and masters and take pay cuts, termination of retirement benefits, accepting medical insurance worse than that could be received by medicare. And the negotiators??? That’s even better… former union MECs working for those lord and masters responsible for negotiating those pay and benefits cuts.. Unfortunately, the disease is spreading around the globe, and there is no inoculation for cure.
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Sorry Andrew7, the good old days dissapeared when people like yourself started paying for type ratings, now anyone can fly and the capts you fly with are probably of the same ilk. In my day you were selected and paid to do a rating, so many I see now that are paying their way and buying the job. Thankfully the airlines taking people like you can tell from experience, who paid their way and those who didnt and thus generally the pay as you go types end up in the crappier outfits. The good jobs are still out there,mainly overseas but the filter is higher for low hour guys.Im guessing you ended up in a pretty sad organisation, certainly sounds like it .
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Hi Tourist,
Your original post made you look like a member of Spectators Balcony, hence my response, having looked at your posts on PPRUNE, your many posts in the Military Forum on Rotary issues, I assume identify your credentials.
My background is Gliders,GA,Old Tprops,Modern TProps, Glass Cockpit Widebody over 20 years, so I have seen both a bit of old and new.
You are simply a Reactionary. We do not need to be military pilots, that was a skill set that may have been appropriate for civil pilots in the 60's, but not today. It is the equivalent of a bunch of Imperial Flying Boat pilots denigrating 707 pilots for having Autopilots and INS. Whether you like it or not, modern pilots need to be commercially aware and run the operation efficiently. This is a different skill set appropriate for today. It may not save your life, but it will keep you employed.
We need to be well trained commercial pilots, so that we can be safe. We are safe, statistics prove it. QED, training is adequate. When you start to look at unusual accidents like the French 330, it is just as likely that the automation led to the accident, as any inadequacy in the crew's response. That statement could exactly apply to a certain military helicopter accident a few years ago. I am yet to see definitive proof of an fatal accident being caused by the inexperience of a cadet pilot. But every year something flies into the ground piloted by an arrogant 'old school' Captain, mostly in the developing world, admittedly.
There are more pilots because there are more pax flying. As that figure rises and falls, so do the job prospects. Nothing new here. Pay-to-Fly?, GIll Air were at that 15 years ago. Didn't see too many complaints about pilots with 1500 hrs light a/c flying, then onto a dodgy old turboprop. This, is one area I would agree with you, though, as I'm very glad I have had the variety of flying, so that I can now see which side my bread is buttered on.
Andrew7 may rue the day that he became a pilot and the disappointment that it has bought him. With another 30 years ahead of him, I'm surprised he's not suicidal!
Your original post made you look like a member of Spectators Balcony, hence my response, having looked at your posts on PPRUNE, your many posts in the Military Forum on Rotary issues, I assume identify your credentials.
My background is Gliders,GA,Old Tprops,Modern TProps, Glass Cockpit Widebody over 20 years, so I have seen both a bit of old and new.
You are simply a Reactionary. We do not need to be military pilots, that was a skill set that may have been appropriate for civil pilots in the 60's, but not today. It is the equivalent of a bunch of Imperial Flying Boat pilots denigrating 707 pilots for having Autopilots and INS. Whether you like it or not, modern pilots need to be commercially aware and run the operation efficiently. This is a different skill set appropriate for today. It may not save your life, but it will keep you employed.
We need to be well trained commercial pilots, so that we can be safe. We are safe, statistics prove it. QED, training is adequate. When you start to look at unusual accidents like the French 330, it is just as likely that the automation led to the accident, as any inadequacy in the crew's response. That statement could exactly apply to a certain military helicopter accident a few years ago. I am yet to see definitive proof of an fatal accident being caused by the inexperience of a cadet pilot. But every year something flies into the ground piloted by an arrogant 'old school' Captain, mostly in the developing world, admittedly.
There are more pilots because there are more pax flying. As that figure rises and falls, so do the job prospects. Nothing new here. Pay-to-Fly?, GIll Air were at that 15 years ago. Didn't see too many complaints about pilots with 1500 hrs light a/c flying, then onto a dodgy old turboprop. This, is one area I would agree with you, though, as I'm very glad I have had the variety of flying, so that I can now see which side my bread is buttered on.
Andrew7 may rue the day that he became a pilot and the disappointment that it has bought him. With another 30 years ahead of him, I'm surprised he's not suicidal!
Last edited by macdo; 17th Oct 2011 at 11:12.
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When you start to look at unusual accidents like the French 330, it is just as likely that the automation led to the accident, as any inadequacy in the crew's response.
Yes, my thoughts are very harsh, but it's the system that permits less than adequate pilots into the cockpit of large jet airliners at the mercy of the innocent public.
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Whether you like it or not, modern pilots need to be commercially aware and run the operation efficiently. This is a different skill set appropriate for today.
It may not save your life, but it will keep you employed.
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Yes, this is precisely the point, to operate commercial transport jets in todays environment, you need to be a well trained, safe, commercially aware pilot.
Managing an emergency will keep you alive.
Managing the operation of your flight efficiently, will keep you employed.
CAPTJNS, I cannot agree with that and there is ample indication on other threads to support the theory that the crew were presented with information from their instruments and warning systems which was contradictory and confusing. MAYBE, another pilot would have done the less obvious thing and walked away, sadly we will never know.
Managing an emergency will keep you alive.
Managing the operation of your flight efficiently, will keep you employed.
CAPTJNS, I cannot agree with that and there is ample indication on other threads to support the theory that the crew were presented with information from their instruments and warning systems which was contradictory and confusing. MAYBE, another pilot would have done the less obvious thing and walked away, sadly we will never know.
Managing an emergency will keep you alive.
Managing the operation of your flight efficiently, will keep you employed.
Managing the operation of your flight efficiently, will keep you employed.
WHERE DID IT ALL GO WRONG?
Simple. Sometime in the '80s (give or take) most of the state owned behemoths and non state owned but heavily subsidised carriers were cut adrift and told to make their own way.
Democracy came along too - even the great unwashed decided they too could take a flight for a fiver, and how many fivers does it take to tip the driver?
In addition, our skills base became transferrable and globalised. Or to put it another way; 'It doesn't matter what you do or make in this world, someone will always come and do or make a ****tier job of it for less'.
In our case, a few will come and do the same job for less.
Simple. Sometime in the '80s (give or take) most of the state owned behemoths and non state owned but heavily subsidised carriers were cut adrift and told to make their own way.
Democracy came along too - even the great unwashed decided they too could take a flight for a fiver, and how many fivers does it take to tip the driver?
In addition, our skills base became transferrable and globalised. Or to put it another way; 'It doesn't matter what you do or make in this world, someone will always come and do or make a ****tier job of it for less'.
In our case, a few will come and do the same job for less.