Where has it all gone wrong?
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Andrew7
Hi
Let me give you some, hopefully, positive news. While most companies are at it and are actively trying to reduce our T and C's, this is down to economics and we as a group are letting it happen. For example the Ryan outfit. As a group their pilots have never, as far as I know, joined forces as a whole and made a stand against their management. I am sure that if you were the boss you would do the same, you would be silly not to. Whatever you think about the head man he is certainly a clever businessman.
I have flown in the charter world for five years and through the recent recession have been forced to change companies a few times. Each change was to another carrier where the T and C's were worse than before. However I knew it was a job in a rough time and was not for good. The light at the end of the tunnel for me was the opportunity to fly for a legacy carrier and while there are those that complain about their T and C's they are significantly better than any I have ever experienced in my short career. I feel comfortable, happy and have a roster and work schedule which means I can enjoy my family life and plan a life. I have never enjoyed flying more than I do now.
I suppose all I want to say to you is use your position and the company you are currently in to your advantage. Use them as a means to an end. Build your hours, your experience and when the time is right move on to a company that suits you and will make you happy. They do exist, but remember what suits one doesn't suit everyone so you will always encounter the negative. There are many here who have been flying for a lot longer than I and have much more experience of companies, aircraft and lifestyles. As I did take on all the advice given with a pinch of salt and make your own decision. Don't be a cynic be an optimist!
Let me give you some, hopefully, positive news. While most companies are at it and are actively trying to reduce our T and C's, this is down to economics and we as a group are letting it happen. For example the Ryan outfit. As a group their pilots have never, as far as I know, joined forces as a whole and made a stand against their management. I am sure that if you were the boss you would do the same, you would be silly not to. Whatever you think about the head man he is certainly a clever businessman.
I have flown in the charter world for five years and through the recent recession have been forced to change companies a few times. Each change was to another carrier where the T and C's were worse than before. However I knew it was a job in a rough time and was not for good. The light at the end of the tunnel for me was the opportunity to fly for a legacy carrier and while there are those that complain about their T and C's they are significantly better than any I have ever experienced in my short career. I feel comfortable, happy and have a roster and work schedule which means I can enjoy my family life and plan a life. I have never enjoyed flying more than I do now.
I suppose all I want to say to you is use your position and the company you are currently in to your advantage. Use them as a means to an end. Build your hours, your experience and when the time is right move on to a company that suits you and will make you happy. They do exist, but remember what suits one doesn't suit everyone so you will always encounter the negative. There are many here who have been flying for a lot longer than I and have much more experience of companies, aircraft and lifestyles. As I did take on all the advice given with a pinch of salt and make your own decision. Don't be a cynic be an optimist!
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Yes, what exactly ARE the unions doing in all this? I get my BALPA magazine telling me what cool gadgets to buy this month when they're ignoring the fact that my Ts and Cs are slowly being eroded.
Try that with the LU workers or any RMT member and what would you get!
Try that with the LU workers or any RMT member and what would you get!
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No one has ever been able to live in the past, so don't be a fool.
The point is the PROFESSION used to have cachet and a status that was rewarded.
True, there were less jobs, but those that were about were invariably better rewarded than now. And even if you were at the bottom of the ladder, there were routes up that ladder.
Now, the only way is to have deep pockets, or rich parents, or occasionally to have real luck.
And generally the jobs now have all the cachet and prestige of a bus driver
The point is the PROFESSION used to have cachet and a status that was rewarded.
True, there were less jobs, but those that were about were invariably better rewarded than now. And even if you were at the bottom of the ladder, there were routes up that ladder.
Now, the only way is to have deep pockets, or rich parents, or occasionally to have real luck.
And generally the jobs now have all the cachet and prestige of a bus driver
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There is a reasonable reason for the modern lack of cachet.
It used to be a genuinely difficult job.
Simple supply and demand of pilots who could do it kept it elite.
It is now not at all difficult to follow the magenta line, and things go wrong so rarely that the airlines don't really worry about the fact that half the pilots are crap. Chances are that nobody will ever find out. It only becomes obvious when there is a smoking hole or, more topically, a big splash
You can't expect respect when we all know that the job is easy. Expensive to get into, but easy.
It used to be a genuinely difficult job.
Simple supply and demand of pilots who could do it kept it elite.
It is now not at all difficult to follow the magenta line, and things go wrong so rarely that the airlines don't really worry about the fact that half the pilots are crap. Chances are that nobody will ever find out. It only becomes obvious when there is a smoking hole or, more topically, a big splash
You can't expect respect when we all know that the job is easy. Expensive to get into, but easy.
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Tourist, you are funny!
I could give you a multitude of reasons why the job is not so straight forward but I don't need to justify myself or the profession to halfwits. Needless to say that events occur daily that passengers will never know about as they are dealt with by the crews effectively, safely and extremely competently!
To make such sweeping statements, as you have, is ignorant beyond belief.
I could give you a multitude of reasons why the job is not so straight forward but I don't need to justify myself or the profession to halfwits. Needless to say that events occur daily that passengers will never know about as they are dealt with by the crews effectively, safely and extremely competently!
To make such sweeping statements, as you have, is ignorant beyond belief.
Last edited by 73addict; 16th Oct 2011 at 17:09.
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Tourist, put your money where your mouth is. Buy an hours flying in a modern airliner sim, ask to be shown a Standard LPC/OPc or a LOE and report back to us. Then, you may well have a better perception of what you are talking about.
The skills required to fly an aircraft are the same as they ever were. The skills to manage a modern flight deck, crew ,airspace, work schedules, management expectations and requirements are quite different to 40 years ago. So, yes, some of the routine flying has been automated, but the management processes to get us through the working day are a lot more involved.
And finally, when the things are on fire or all the lights have gone out, only the skill of your pilots will allow you to continue living.
The skills required to fly an aircraft are the same as they ever were. The skills to manage a modern flight deck, crew ,airspace, work schedules, management expectations and requirements are quite different to 40 years ago. So, yes, some of the routine flying has been automated, but the management processes to get us through the working day are a lot more involved.
And finally, when the things are on fire or all the lights have gone out, only the skill of your pilots will allow you to continue living.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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For heaven's sake, don't you think every other profession on the planet hasn't had to deal with exactly the same stuff? What makes aviation think it has some God-given exemption?
It's called 'life'. Get over it.
It's called 'life'. Get over it.
It is called 'life'. get over it.
(What is your particular forum, 'Accountants 'R Us'?).
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Back in the 'golden' old days, 1000 hours probably meant you were blasting around in a clapped out twin engine piston powered spam can, or if you were really lucky you were sat in a knackered oily old turbo prop! Ether way you were probably lugging your own cargo or briefing the pax personally. FTL, what were those?
Good Advice being given now. With the greatest respect I think some of you are expecting too much too soon. A jet with a 1,000 hours is going well in my book. I am not going to do the "back in my day routine" but I retired a few months ago after 42 years full-time flying and yes I'll say it again, with a 1,000 hours you are going well to be in a jet. Try and use it as a means to an end and more importantly, enjoy it, have a laugh, relax and guess what, the world will laugh with you. I had a ball, wonderful career and it still is. It is what you make of it. I even got the goons at Heathrow Security laughing once! Imagine working in a bank 9-5 or like a friend of mine, a Dentist, looking down peoples throats all day. I have seen and done things ordinary folk could only dream of. Far too much negativity helps no one, life is short, live it.
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Wow, some of you guys are a little tense.
73addict
"you passengers"
macdo
I have flown steam driven passenger transport aircraft and shiney glass. Plenty of time in modern sims thank you very much.
What about you? Do you base your conviction upon knowledge of the past or just a guess? When was the last time you tried to navigate across the world in an aircraft without GPS?
"but the management processes to get us through the working day are a lot more involved"
You make me laugh! That says everything about what you think piloting is about.
"And finally, when the things are on fire or all the lights have gone out, only the skill of your pilots will allow you to continue living."
This is exactly my point. These events are very rare, and when they happen, the pilots are not always ready for them. Look at Air France!
Take a best case guy with lots of natural talent.
Give him minimal "teach to the exam" flying training.
Then sit him in a cockpit that does just about everything for him for 10yrs, with only the occasional minimal sim stuff every now and then.
That guys arousal level and basic skills are now so atrophied that he may just totally lock up.
Not because he could not have been a great pilot, but because he has never had the opportunity to become one.
The job now is so low challenge in terms of piloting skills that of course the skills will drop, particularly if he does not have the strength of experience from coming from a small aircraft/turboprop/bush pilot or military background.
If you are so convinced that I am wrong, then ask yourself this.
Why, in the olden days, when salaries were huge and hosties were welcoming and time off was endless and life was good and nobody had to pay for their own training was there no mountain of unemployed pilots?
Why nowadays when salaries are low and all the fun is gone and you need rich parents to get you started is there a mountain.
Is it perhaps that in the old days money was not enough to get you wings?
Is it perhaps that Darwin weeded out a lot that were never meant to captain an airliner?
73addict
"you passengers"
macdo
I have flown steam driven passenger transport aircraft and shiney glass. Plenty of time in modern sims thank you very much.
What about you? Do you base your conviction upon knowledge of the past or just a guess? When was the last time you tried to navigate across the world in an aircraft without GPS?
"but the management processes to get us through the working day are a lot more involved"
You make me laugh! That says everything about what you think piloting is about.
"And finally, when the things are on fire or all the lights have gone out, only the skill of your pilots will allow you to continue living."
This is exactly my point. These events are very rare, and when they happen, the pilots are not always ready for them. Look at Air France!
Take a best case guy with lots of natural talent.
Give him minimal "teach to the exam" flying training.
Then sit him in a cockpit that does just about everything for him for 10yrs, with only the occasional minimal sim stuff every now and then.
That guys arousal level and basic skills are now so atrophied that he may just totally lock up.
Not because he could not have been a great pilot, but because he has never had the opportunity to become one.
The job now is so low challenge in terms of piloting skills that of course the skills will drop, particularly if he does not have the strength of experience from coming from a small aircraft/turboprop/bush pilot or military background.
If you are so convinced that I am wrong, then ask yourself this.
Why, in the olden days, when salaries were huge and hosties were welcoming and time off was endless and life was good and nobody had to pay for their own training was there no mountain of unemployed pilots?
Why nowadays when salaries are low and all the fun is gone and you need rich parents to get you started is there a mountain.
Is it perhaps that in the old days money was not enough to get you wings?
Is it perhaps that Darwin weeded out a lot that were never meant to captain an airliner?
Last edited by Tourist; 16th Oct 2011 at 10:33.
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Tourist, are you not overromantisizing the past? There were crappy airlines then, with crappy pay and crappy status. Or were you all treated with the egards of a BA Concord skipper even though you flew for some obscure charter?
What we are trying to say, or at least what I am trying to point out, is that our friend Andrew here is complaining about things as if he is a veteran at the end of his carreer, not a guy who is lucky enough to be where he is right now. If a cadet starts moaning to me about experience levels then I just shake my head and chuckle.
What we are trying to say, or at least what I am trying to point out, is that our friend Andrew here is complaining about things as if he is a veteran at the end of his carreer, not a guy who is lucky enough to be where he is right now. If a cadet starts moaning to me about experience levels then I just shake my head and chuckle.
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Penko
Yes, of course I am. A bit.
There have always been crappy jobs, but at the other end of the scale there used to be truly great careers with what we now call "legacy airlines"
I think we need to stop whineing though because there was a reason that they used to get paid a lot.
It used to be a difficult club to get into.
Anybody who has seen modern civvy pilot training knows it is not now, and worse, even if you have the "right stuff" you don't get taught the basics.
No stalling!(and what they do teach is frankly dangerous minimum height loss crap)
No spinning!
Training aircraft that are gentle and don't bite!
The airlines/aviation world have taken the gamble that we don't need good pilots anymore because the systems so rarely go wrong.
I think that they are wrong, but the people who set the standards for licences and type ratings seem to disagree.
It is very easy to get our wages back up. Make it very very difficult to pass the next check.
Unfortunately, the CAA training schools etc make more money from people passing tests, so there is no incentive.
Yes, of course I am. A bit.
There have always been crappy jobs, but at the other end of the scale there used to be truly great careers with what we now call "legacy airlines"
I think we need to stop whineing though because there was a reason that they used to get paid a lot.
It used to be a difficult club to get into.
Anybody who has seen modern civvy pilot training knows it is not now, and worse, even if you have the "right stuff" you don't get taught the basics.
No stalling!(and what they do teach is frankly dangerous minimum height loss crap)
No spinning!
Training aircraft that are gentle and don't bite!
The airlines/aviation world have taken the gamble that we don't need good pilots anymore because the systems so rarely go wrong.
I think that they are wrong, but the people who set the standards for licences and type ratings seem to disagree.
It is very easy to get our wages back up. Make it very very difficult to pass the next check.
Unfortunately, the CAA training schools etc make more money from people passing tests, so there is no incentive.
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I don't know if that's right Tourist. I and the majority of people I know have been trained in exactly the same aircraft following exactly the same syllabus for more than 30 years, flying, stalling in Cessna's and Pipers. The MPL licence has yet to materialize fully, so training cannot be the reason for the problem you see.
Now the only thing that has changed operationally is the fact that we have SATNAV. The rest is exactly the same as 30 years ago. So yes we follow magenta lines, and we are not endlessly dialling up VOR's. But let's be honest, was that really rocket science? Hard work, yes.
And automation? My own opinion is that I have had to invest by far more brain cells in undestanding my A320 aircraft than the 737 tractor I used to fly. Go figure.
Now the only thing that has changed operationally is the fact that we have SATNAV. The rest is exactly the same as 30 years ago. So yes we follow magenta lines, and we are not endlessly dialling up VOR's. But let's be honest, was that really rocket science? Hard work, yes.
And automation? My own opinion is that I have had to invest by far more brain cells in undestanding my A320 aircraft than the 737 tractor I used to fly. Go figure.
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Can you see where it started to go wrong?
If you really want to know where it all started, it was a 
called Frank Lorenzo at Continental Airlines who in 1985 had
kicked it all off. From then on it was only a matter of time.
called Frank Lorenzo at Continental Airlines who in 1985 had
kicked it all off. From then on it was only a matter of time.
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Tourist, flight simulator doesn't count as flying! 
All this talk of the "old days", wake up, just hazard a guess at the increase in passenger numbers between this rosy time you speak of and today.
I will do it for you, in 1970 Gatwick had 5 million pax pass through and in 2010 there were over 31 million. Heathrow 1960 14 million/year and 2010 67 million. I wonder what could possibly be the reason for there being more pilots!!!
All this talk of the "old days", wake up, just hazard a guess at the increase in passenger numbers between this rosy time you speak of and today.
I will do it for you, in 1970 Gatwick had 5 million pax pass through and in 2010 there were over 31 million. Heathrow 1960 14 million/year and 2010 67 million. I wonder what could possibly be the reason for there being more pilots!!!
Last edited by 73addict; 16th Oct 2011 at 17:21.