Family vs long-haul
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Family vs long-haul
Hi everybody! Just want to ask your opinion.
Now I'm flying from left seat on B737 sleeping almost every night at home in my bed. Not so far away I've got an offer to be promoted to an instructor. That mean a very little increase in salary and same lifestyle. But at that time another offer found me - a right seat on a B777, where salary is a bit lower for the moment and absolutely different long-haul lifestyle. My wife wants to see me at home every day, but I'm very interested in that big bird. The money is not a question, bkz i won't win or loose a lot for the first time in both cases. But later I will probably have a chance to take left seat on a tripleseven (I hope).
The most difficult for me is to change the lifestyle - I don't have an experience and I don't know how is it not to be at home for a weeks.
It's quite a difficult choice for me - you don't have such an offer every day and if i say no for the big one i would hardly have similar chance in the future.
I am a family man, loving my wife, but also have a great desire to fly on a large airplane.
So what's your opinion: shall I take the long haul modern B777 or sit at home as an instructor near my wife and kids?
Thanx everyone!
Now I'm flying from left seat on B737 sleeping almost every night at home in my bed. Not so far away I've got an offer to be promoted to an instructor. That mean a very little increase in salary and same lifestyle. But at that time another offer found me - a right seat on a B777, where salary is a bit lower for the moment and absolutely different long-haul lifestyle. My wife wants to see me at home every day, but I'm very interested in that big bird. The money is not a question, bkz i won't win or loose a lot for the first time in both cases. But later I will probably have a chance to take left seat on a tripleseven (I hope).
The most difficult for me is to change the lifestyle - I don't have an experience and I don't know how is it not to be at home for a weeks.
It's quite a difficult choice for me - you don't have such an offer every day and if i say no for the big one i would hardly have similar chance in the future.
I am a family man, loving my wife, but also have a great desire to fly on a large airplane.
So what's your opinion: shall I take the long haul modern B777 or sit at home as an instructor near my wife and kids?
Thanx everyone!
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It's hard to give solid advice on such a personal situation with such little details. All I can say is treasure your family and spend as much time with them as you can. The aircraft is just a job. Your wife and kids are your life.
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Surely this is a discussion between you and your family, rather than one that can be resolved on a public forum? Life is always about compromise. Which do you love more - your wife and family or the 777. If the answer is 777 then maybe you can sell it to them with the travel perks and chance of holidays in exotic locations. It also depends who the 777 flying is for. If you have been offered a job, then you must be able to get an idea of what their rosters look like, and how much home time you will be likely to get at home.
If your wife strongly objects and you come home every now and then with a perma sun tan and tales of fun in the sun then things won't end well.
If your wife strongly objects and you come home every now and then with a perma sun tan and tales of fun in the sun then things won't end well.
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Depends very much on the company.
I made the same transfer about a year ago. Left seat 737 to left seat trippel. My family life has improved, since I am at home much more. In my company the long haul flights generate more days off then the 737 schedules.
Just compare the rosters and make your decision. After all, the 777 is just a big 737. In a few months the thrill of the big airplane is gone.
I made the same transfer about a year ago. Left seat 737 to left seat trippel. My family life has improved, since I am at home much more. In my company the long haul flights generate more days off then the 737 schedules.
Just compare the rosters and make your decision. After all, the 777 is just a big 737. In a few months the thrill of the big airplane is gone.
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Unlike root I can give solid advice on such a personal situation. If your wife is ok with you spending endless nights away from home in foreign hotel rooms with young flight attendants and an endless supply of alcohol I say take the 777 job.
Or, (please note this next bit is in the dripping with sarcasm font) do you really have to ask?
Or, (please note this next bit is in the dripping with sarcasm font) do you really have to ask?
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oh for Gods sake, anyone can see that LH is not great for the 'average' family member. Time away from your kids is just that, lost time you can never get back. Sitting under a palm tree on Christmas Day while your folks are 3000 miles away? Fun? Really?
I know it works for some, but any half decent psychologist will explain the negative effects on your kids.
SH is S**T, but at least you have some great memories of your family growing up.
I know it works for some, but any half decent psychologist will explain the negative effects on your kids.
SH is S**T, but at least you have some great memories of your family growing up.
Just compare the rosters and make your decision
Can't speak for SH but whilst LH rosters can give you blocks of days at home, if you're in a rostering system where those days are consistently midweek ones then school age children are going to see very little of you.
If your wife strongly objects and you come home every now and then with a perma sun tan and tales of fun in the sun then things won't end well.
Last edited by wiggy; 14th Sep 2011 at 20:43.
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B737-B777
Dear Cat,
Just think twice before you go on a Big 737, the time between TOC and TOD is just too loong and then? what you do at the other end? HKG, JFK, GRU, SYD and and and sounds maybe better in the beginning but after the 3rd LAX and the 5th somewhere else you know the Hotel, the Pub´s and every hole by first name around. Tired in the afternoon after arrival, sleeping until 01:00 hrs and then be awake until one hour before wakeup call....
I have no Kid´s. no Family, even I am thinking now going back to get a life again. Look at the schedule where you want to go and then compare.... Is you goal flying more important then your family?
I see the Lad´s suffering from real life. Broke, divorced from the second wife and running around with the 3rd GF trying to hide the paycheck to make a living for themselves. Ending up somewhere outcasted and just having the glamour whilst at work but "home"?
If you love your Wife and Kid´s then do yourself a favour: listen to what the Fellows said earlier ( I am sure later as well ) value them, treasure them.
Flying the B777 is not that exciting after a while anymore. Having the option to be at home when your Kid´s have Birthday, Anniversary, BBQ with Friends is priceless, you can make alot of money but you can not buy those events and happiness.
Can you get me a B737 Job where I am sleeping in my own bed most of the month? then I am taking it, no fuzz.
Just think twice before you go on a Big 737, the time between TOC and TOD is just too loong and then? what you do at the other end? HKG, JFK, GRU, SYD and and and sounds maybe better in the beginning but after the 3rd LAX and the 5th somewhere else you know the Hotel, the Pub´s and every hole by first name around. Tired in the afternoon after arrival, sleeping until 01:00 hrs and then be awake until one hour before wakeup call....
I have no Kid´s. no Family, even I am thinking now going back to get a life again. Look at the schedule where you want to go and then compare.... Is you goal flying more important then your family?
I see the Lad´s suffering from real life. Broke, divorced from the second wife and running around with the 3rd GF trying to hide the paycheck to make a living for themselves. Ending up somewhere outcasted and just having the glamour whilst at work but "home"?
If you love your Wife and Kid´s then do yourself a favour: listen to what the Fellows said earlier ( I am sure later as well ) value them, treasure them.
Flying the B777 is not that exciting after a while anymore. Having the option to be at home when your Kid´s have Birthday, Anniversary, BBQ with Friends is priceless, you can make alot of money but you can not buy those events and happiness.
Can you get me a B737 Job where I am sleeping in my own bed most of the month? then I am taking it, no fuzz.
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I have been on long haul for 17 years, and have successfully raised a family at the same time. Although every situation is different, I can tell you what I believe to have been the most important qualities of my own family life that have contributed to that success. First of all, I have a very independent wife. Not a career woman, but a stay-at-home mom who doesn't freak out when the furnace quits or there is a water leak. These things will always occur when you are on a trip! She also is secure enough in our relationship to hear stories about me going to bars with the cabin crew and to believe me when I say that I didn't get up to any mischief. She has her own social life parallel to ours together, so, even now that the kids are all out of the house, she is seldom bored and lonely. Secondly, I am pretty bad at dealing with jet-lag. That might sound counter-intuitive, but what I mean is that I adapt to new time zones slowly. So slowly, in fact, that when I get back home I am, if the trip was short enough, still on my home time zone and take very little time to re-acclimatize. This means that my time at home can be spent getting done what needs to be done.
I absolutely did not miss my kids growing up. On the contrary, I was at home much more than if I had flown short haul, and was often able to go to their school plays and concerts even more often than the other dads with 9 to 5 jobs. I still love the foreign travel, and still get a huge kick from flying a four-engined fire-breathing behemoth.
Good luck with the rest of your career whatever you choose, and keep in mind that the most important thing for your family life will be for you to have a good job in15 years, so ask yourself which company will still be around then!
I absolutely did not miss my kids growing up. On the contrary, I was at home much more than if I had flown short haul, and was often able to go to their school plays and concerts even more often than the other dads with 9 to 5 jobs. I still love the foreign travel, and still get a huge kick from flying a four-engined fire-breathing behemoth.
Good luck with the rest of your career whatever you choose, and keep in mind that the most important thing for your family life will be for you to have a good job in15 years, so ask yourself which company will still be around then!
You will get as many different answers as respondants. For everyone, it's about personal circumstances and preferences. But here's my take:
Forget the aircraft. After a while, they're all as boring as each other. And factor in you're going to do a lot less handling on the 777. I used to do ULH and I was getting one sector a month.
Look at the work patterns on the LH job. There's LH and then there's LH! Three trips a month on ULH is very different to six flogging across the pond to the East coast of the US. The former is very gentlemanly - the latter is crippling.
The LH destinations look great and the excitement of going somewhere new is high. But after you've been there a few times, they will become the same as your SH destinations. Trust me. Tokyo sounds fantastic, but when you're wide awake at 4am in the hotel in Narita (miles away from the city) boredom will have a new meaning.
Consider the family. If your wife is strong and independent and doesn't get jealous, You're OK. If there are any doubts, then consider carefully.
What about career? Is the 777 job with a major carrier with a very long seniority list where it's going to take 15 years to get a command? Will you be happy as a 50 year old FO?
How do you cope with jet lag? It's different for everyone. Personally, I found it harder to cope with as I got older - and it's failry safe to say that your circadian rythems get more entrenched as you get older. Although you need less sleep, it's harder to get rest outside your normal sleep patterns. Long haul is a young persons game - which is ironic considering in most airlines it's the senior pilots who get those jobs.
Personally, I used to to long haul and now do short haul only - and IMHO, short haul is the much better lifestyle.
Forget the aircraft. After a while, they're all as boring as each other. And factor in you're going to do a lot less handling on the 777. I used to do ULH and I was getting one sector a month.
Look at the work patterns on the LH job. There's LH and then there's LH! Three trips a month on ULH is very different to six flogging across the pond to the East coast of the US. The former is very gentlemanly - the latter is crippling.
The LH destinations look great and the excitement of going somewhere new is high. But after you've been there a few times, they will become the same as your SH destinations. Trust me. Tokyo sounds fantastic, but when you're wide awake at 4am in the hotel in Narita (miles away from the city) boredom will have a new meaning.
Consider the family. If your wife is strong and independent and doesn't get jealous, You're OK. If there are any doubts, then consider carefully.
What about career? Is the 777 job with a major carrier with a very long seniority list where it's going to take 15 years to get a command? Will you be happy as a 50 year old FO?
How do you cope with jet lag? It's different for everyone. Personally, I found it harder to cope with as I got older - and it's failry safe to say that your circadian rythems get more entrenched as you get older. Although you need less sleep, it's harder to get rest outside your normal sleep patterns. Long haul is a young persons game - which is ironic considering in most airlines it's the senior pilots who get those jobs.
Personally, I used to to long haul and now do short haul only - and IMHO, short haul is the much better lifestyle.
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Hats off to you Long Haul, you've got it in one
A huge amount depends on your wife and how self sufficient she is ... if she's the kind of girl who stands on a chair and screams for you to come and help when there's a mouse in the kitchen, your marriage will be short and unpleasant once you're seriously into the long haul swing of things. Or if she's sufficiently insecure that she interrogates you about the cabin crew etc after every trip - whether or not you are actually fooling around or behaving like an angel doesn't matter, if she is one of the low-self-esteem types then it will drive her crazy every time you're away regardless.
And these days there's no such thing as "just" long haul vs short haul - frequency of trips, how hard they work you, east-west versus north-south long haul trips make a huge difference with time zone changes etc. Sandpit rosters with all their sneaky stuff like "factored" hours, min rest at home, super long haul straight into a subcontinent turn round etc, most of the time you're so shattered on your days off that it's not quality time with family even if you are at home. I was absolutely burned out on that and had to get away after a couple of years for the sake of the marriage. The roster I have now is fantastic by comparison I only seem to work a couple of days a week and have a lot more time to spend with the kids than I ever had in any job before.
A huge amount depends on your wife and how self sufficient she is ... if she's the kind of girl who stands on a chair and screams for you to come and help when there's a mouse in the kitchen, your marriage will be short and unpleasant once you're seriously into the long haul swing of things. Or if she's sufficiently insecure that she interrogates you about the cabin crew etc after every trip - whether or not you are actually fooling around or behaving like an angel doesn't matter, if she is one of the low-self-esteem types then it will drive her crazy every time you're away regardless.
And these days there's no such thing as "just" long haul vs short haul - frequency of trips, how hard they work you, east-west versus north-south long haul trips make a huge difference with time zone changes etc. Sandpit rosters with all their sneaky stuff like "factored" hours, min rest at home, super long haul straight into a subcontinent turn round etc, most of the time you're so shattered on your days off that it's not quality time with family even if you are at home. I was absolutely burned out on that and had to get away after a couple of years for the sake of the marriage. The roster I have now is fantastic by comparison I only seem to work a couple of days a week and have a lot more time to spend with the kids than I ever had in any job before.
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I just don't know how people can stand the boredom of long haul. Even as a passenger on a LH flight it feels like I've been buried alive when I endure the mind-numbing tedious tedium, hour after hour after hour and another hour and another and another, and another and another and another...........nothing happening, more nothing, some more nothing................uhh Please shoot me !
I'm a pilot............get me out of here !!
I'm a pilot............get me out of here !!
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Luke sky toddler and Long Haul both are right-IMHO. My husband was ULH for 20 odd years,the first couple were tough on me, always at parties,wedding etc on my own. I soon got used to that,and even found it odd when other half was able to make it to parties with me! I loved the independence of being able to do my own thing when he was away,but then I'm that type of girl. You need to be secure, and not panic when the pipes burst in winter etc....need to be able to change flat tyres,fuses etc around the home and general small maintenance stuff.
The kids were born after he started long haul,so it's all they ever knew-they were fine with it, and loved being able to go on trips with him-with the schools blessing..
It all boils down to -can your wife cope with it??
The kids were born after he started long haul,so it's all they ever knew-they were fine with it, and loved being able to go on trips with him-with the schools blessing..
It all boils down to -can your wife cope with it??
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There is some really good advice on here, for both side. Can I add to my previous comment that there is a happy half way house call MFF or mixed fleet flying. I do this myself, with SH in the summer and LH in the winter when my summer base is closed. Others do MFF all year round at bigger bases. Almost to a man, the pilots say that it is the least tedious regime they have experienced. The only downside is the extra work at Sim time as it will be a year between each type.
WRT partners, it is hard to impose a big lifestyle change on your partner unless they are totally informed and on-board.All the above about having an independent minded other half is correct. Maybe with LH it is most successful if you meet someone after you start doing it!
WRT partners, it is hard to impose a big lifestyle change on your partner unless they are totally informed and on-board.All the above about having an independent minded other half is correct. Maybe with LH it is most successful if you meet someone after you start doing it!
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I heard a 'fact' once. It went along the lines that in BA, where you could've flown Concordes to Budgies, and everything in between, the most number of senior pilots were to be found on 737! I guess, the lifestyle and home life meant more to them than the plane.
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In BA, where everyone has the opportunity to bid annually for fleet changes, the most senior fleets for Captains (in decreasing seniority) are as follows:
747
777
767 (Mixed LH/SH)
A320
737
For FOs:
777
747
767 (Mixed LH/SH)
A320
737
I.E. - most people in BA (a significant majority) want to fly LH over SH. Of the 500 most senior pilots (those senior enough to have any fleet/seat they choose), 14 are A230 Captains, 35 are 767 Captains, the rest are either on the 777 or 747.
The average BA SH pilot will have 200 'at work days' per year. For LH, the figure is 150. An 'at work day' is a calendar day infringed by work. On LH, many of these are late afternoon/evening reports and early morning finishes. E.G a 5 day JNB reports at around 1700 on day one and lands at around 0700 on day 5.
Take from that what you will.
747
777
767 (Mixed LH/SH)
A320
737
For FOs:
777
747
767 (Mixed LH/SH)
A320
737
I.E. - most people in BA (a significant majority) want to fly LH over SH. Of the 500 most senior pilots (those senior enough to have any fleet/seat they choose), 14 are A230 Captains, 35 are 767 Captains, the rest are either on the 777 or 747.
The average BA SH pilot will have 200 'at work days' per year. For LH, the figure is 150. An 'at work day' is a calendar day infringed by work. On LH, many of these are late afternoon/evening reports and early morning finishes. E.G a 5 day JNB reports at around 1700 on day one and lands at around 0700 on day 5.
Take from that what you will.
Last edited by BusDriverLHR; 16th Sep 2011 at 10:06.
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Very interesting stats, thanks for posting them.
The problem with using BA as an example is that their Bidline is I think unique in the UK and not hugely used elsewhere outside of legacy national airlines and the US. The rest of us have almost no say in how we are rostered and who gets the best LH work. Therefore, your senior BA Capt. building his own roster of choice, can have an enviable lifestyle. The LH pilots at the bottom of the FO (or Capt) lists are probably having a bit more of a florid time. Most likely these are also the age group of pilots most effected by time away from home, with a young family and are the most powerless to do anything about it.
At the risk of being shot at, I think it is fair to say that BA SH is not what it once was, say 25 years ago. When I looked at it 7 years ago, I would have been working about an extra 50 days a year to my current IT charter job, and would have been away from home a lot more on SH stopovers.
The trouble with LH is that it is like a siren song! Almost unbearable not to have a go if the opportunity arises.
The problem with using BA as an example is that their Bidline is I think unique in the UK and not hugely used elsewhere outside of legacy national airlines and the US. The rest of us have almost no say in how we are rostered and who gets the best LH work. Therefore, your senior BA Capt. building his own roster of choice, can have an enviable lifestyle. The LH pilots at the bottom of the FO (or Capt) lists are probably having a bit more of a florid time. Most likely these are also the age group of pilots most effected by time away from home, with a young family and are the most powerless to do anything about it.
At the risk of being shot at, I think it is fair to say that BA SH is not what it once was, say 25 years ago. When I looked at it 7 years ago, I would have been working about an extra 50 days a year to my current IT charter job, and would have been away from home a lot more on SH stopovers.
The trouble with LH is that it is like a siren song! Almost unbearable not to have a go if the opportunity arises.
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CatPilot - You have had the benefit of some very good and some very bad advice here.
I suggest that first you get a copy of the 777 roster and compare the actual, usable time at home, if you are on five days of lates or earlies SH there isn't a whole lot you can do with the few hours you are at home before and after work. It is unlikely that you will disappear "for weeks at a time" these days on LH, frequency of schedule means that lengthy hotel stops are kept to a minimum. Using Skype, for example, you can talk and see each other most days from most parts of the world.
My wife, also a very capable person, was glad to see the back of me for a few days at a time, then when I came home it was all 'holiday', LH worked for us. I don't think you can base your career on the preferences of just one person, there has to be compromise, other wise there will always be one satisfied person and one dissatisfied person in the house and that isn't good.
I suggest that first you get a copy of the 777 roster and compare the actual, usable time at home, if you are on five days of lates or earlies SH there isn't a whole lot you can do with the few hours you are at home before and after work. It is unlikely that you will disappear "for weeks at a time" these days on LH, frequency of schedule means that lengthy hotel stops are kept to a minimum. Using Skype, for example, you can talk and see each other most days from most parts of the world.
My wife, also a very capable person, was glad to see the back of me for a few days at a time, then when I came home it was all 'holiday', LH worked for us. I don't think you can base your career on the preferences of just one person, there has to be compromise, other wise there will always be one satisfied person and one dissatisfied person in the house and that isn't good.