Pilot wages VS other jobs
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Pilots will never stick together as a group. Until we do stick together, we will continue to be 
on.
Egypt, Tunisia and the Middle East. The brave demonstrators there have put their lives on the line for something they believe in. A better quality of life. They are not under the influence of the corrosive effects of secrecy, stealth and elitism.
We, as a pilot group are so scared of putting our stupid jobs on the line, for a better life style. We are weak and the employers know it! If the peoples who helped in the downfall of ruthless dictators, can put their lives on the line for something they believe in, then they deserve to reap the rewards. Pilots? We are all too weak to stand up for anything. We have allowed our collective bs to swivel up. That is why we are at, where we are at today.
on.Egypt, Tunisia and the Middle East. The brave demonstrators there have put their lives on the line for something they believe in. A better quality of life. They are not under the influence of the corrosive effects of secrecy, stealth and elitism.
We, as a pilot group are so
scared of putting our stupid jobs on the line, for a better life style. We are weak and the employers know it! If the peoples who helped in the downfall of ruthless dictators, can put their lives on the line for something they believe in, then they deserve to reap the rewards. Pilots? We are all too weak to stand up for anything. We have allowed our collective bs to swivel up. That is why we are at, where we are at today.
Last edited by doubleu-anker; 19th Feb 2011 at 03:50.
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I am paid for the responsibility I have, the skills and experience I have accrued. I am also paid for the unthinkable - that one time that might require a life and death decision.
I think we are missing the real reason T+Cs continue to decline - the fact there is always a willing supply of starry eyed people wanting to be pilots.
'I'd sell my granny to fly a jet' that way I can wear gold stripes, a big watch and get the hell out my dreary office existence.
I think we are missing the real reason T+Cs continue to decline - the fact there is always a willing supply of starry eyed people wanting to be pilots.
'I'd sell my granny to fly a jet' that way I can wear gold stripes, a big watch and get the hell out my dreary office existence.
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I presently work at sea, having been in various sectors. My take home is 6000 eur per month + bonus. However I work ridiculous watches, suffer heavy fatigue, am away from home for upto 8 months a year, have no control over my schedule or time at home, am treated like a second class citizen in all of the places I go, particularly the USA, am often a burden to the employer, and have very limited employment rights as most ships are foreign flagged. Work on a contract basis, which is all employer biased. Like 'Ditched', i'm very keen to put all that behind to work in aviation, but am saving a little more cash before I a take the final step of the CPL/IR/MCC and see where everything lies.
When spending 2 weeks crossing the atlantic in rough seas doing 12 hours of watches a day sat in the dark with a companion who doesn't speak English, there is a lot of envy for those who pass overhead at 500 knots.
When spending 2 weeks crossing the atlantic in rough seas doing 12 hours of watches a day sat in the dark with a companion who doesn't speak English, there is a lot of envy for those who pass overhead at 500 knots.
fade to grey, I bet you were one of those starry eyed individuals yourself before you became a pilot. Are you honestly telling us that you became a pilot so that you could have loads of responsibility and make life or death decisions? No, I would imagine you discovered that side of it during your training and subsequent experience.
I wanted to be a pilot out of a love for flying; the fact it is a very interesting job that pays well is a bonus. I didn't want the job for the kudos or glamour. I was denied the opportunity by disability. I fail to see how that makes me some sort of "space cadet" to be belittled and insulted.
I have been pondering this recently. Yes, flying an airliner is a hugely demanding job, requiring enormous financial investment, skill and time. It is a hugely responsible job, there is no doubting that. So yes, pilots should be paid more than your average Joe in his dreary 9-to-5 office job. Now, if the national average wage is around £26,000, is it not reasonable to think that pilots should be paid double or triple that? I think so. So I cannot help but think that £100K+ a year for a Captain is getting into excessive territory.
I can see £100K+ for surgeons being appropriate since their work IS life and death, but I can't see pilots being on the same sheet. Yes you need to be responsible and not make any mistakes, but so do truck drivers driving down the motorway. I'm not saying you should earn the same as a truck driver, just that paying attention and not making mistakes is a crucial part of many much lesser paid jobs.
Another thing I have been wondering recently, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but could part of the reason why the airline industry always seems to be in dire straits be because pilots get paid excessive amounts?
I wanted to be a pilot out of a love for flying; the fact it is a very interesting job that pays well is a bonus. I didn't want the job for the kudos or glamour. I was denied the opportunity by disability. I fail to see how that makes me some sort of "space cadet" to be belittled and insulted.
I have been pondering this recently. Yes, flying an airliner is a hugely demanding job, requiring enormous financial investment, skill and time. It is a hugely responsible job, there is no doubting that. So yes, pilots should be paid more than your average Joe in his dreary 9-to-5 office job. Now, if the national average wage is around £26,000, is it not reasonable to think that pilots should be paid double or triple that? I think so. So I cannot help but think that £100K+ a year for a Captain is getting into excessive territory.
I can see £100K+ for surgeons being appropriate since their work IS life and death, but I can't see pilots being on the same sheet. Yes you need to be responsible and not make any mistakes, but so do truck drivers driving down the motorway. I'm not saying you should earn the same as a truck driver, just that paying attention and not making mistakes is a crucial part of many much lesser paid jobs.
Another thing I have been wondering recently, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but could part of the reason why the airline industry always seems to be in dire straits be because pilots get paid excessive amounts?
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There are plenty of reasons pilots should be paid well. Long hours and the responsibility for an expensive piece of kit or even the fact that you do have to make the very occasional life or death decision are not reasons in themselves.
They are just part of the job, if you want to work out why a pilot should be well paid, start thinking about how the decisions you make on a daily basis can have a direct implication on the financial well being of the business. That's the sort of tack you have to take when talking to a management type about your "worth" to a business, not that your job is difficult or that you spend a lot of time away from home. That, is quite simply, what the job is like and none of us who fly for a living should pretend that we didn't go into it without knowing that we'd be working odd hours or ending up in odd places.
They are just part of the job, if you want to work out why a pilot should be well paid, start thinking about how the decisions you make on a daily basis can have a direct implication on the financial well being of the business. That's the sort of tack you have to take when talking to a management type about your "worth" to a business, not that your job is difficult or that you spend a lot of time away from home. That, is quite simply, what the job is like and none of us who fly for a living should pretend that we didn't go into it without knowing that we'd be working odd hours or ending up in odd places.
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L'Aviateur,
Believe me, you wont regret your switch of careers if you can make it to the airlines!
flying in an airline environment is a fairly easy job, compared to navigating a ship, (and all the other stuff you do on board). A mate at my base also came down this route, and we were discussing if we would go back to sailing, should the sh*t hit the fan. I want to avoid this at all cost, really don't miss those trips were you are lucky to get 5 hours of sleep a day. After 16 weeks on board you dont know where you bunk is anymore and how a good night sleep feels like, then its really time to go home...
After Nautical training the ATPL study was a big dissapoinment, i was expecting to get some proper education on the matter. I miss the challenges of sailing sometimes, but actually having a social life, spent some time with the family and get paid pretty well makes up for it.
good luck!
Believe me, you wont regret your switch of careers if you can make it to the airlines!
flying in an airline environment is a fairly easy job, compared to navigating a ship, (and all the other stuff you do on board). A mate at my base also came down this route, and we were discussing if we would go back to sailing, should the sh*t hit the fan. I want to avoid this at all cost, really don't miss those trips were you are lucky to get 5 hours of sleep a day. After 16 weeks on board you dont know where you bunk is anymore and how a good night sleep feels like, then its really time to go home...
After Nautical training the ATPL study was a big dissapoinment, i was expecting to get some proper education on the matter. I miss the challenges of sailing sometimes, but actually having a social life, spent some time with the family and get paid pretty well makes up for it.
good luck!
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No one is belittling you stu,
BUT I try and give people the actual on the coal face reality.As I have said before if you love flying work in the city and fly some sporty aerobatic plane at the weekend.......do not think of airline flying.
We are extremely limited in the hand flying we do, I may do 3-4 mins worth in a 7 hour flight.It is mostly not about stick and rudder these days.
I think the comparison with a truck driver is spurious.Yes every job has responsibility, however if a truck driver screws up he may kill a few other motorists and write off his wagon (what are these worth £100k ?). If I screw up we are talking a £40m aircraft and 200 passengers, not to mention the negative press which has doomed several airlines after that sort of incident.
Also the business decisions I make on a daily basis have big repercussions - if I fill the aircraft up that's about £40000 of fuel.
Pilots tend to compare their lot with supposedly similar professions, hence the disenchantment when compared with the terms and conditions of some of those. Of course there will always be more lowly,badly paid jobs but I don't sit there thinking, 'actually we are doing quite well compared with the geezer who puts ads for the kebab house through my letterbox'.An unfair and pointless comparison.
BUT I try and give people the actual on the coal face reality.As I have said before if you love flying work in the city and fly some sporty aerobatic plane at the weekend.......do not think of airline flying.
We are extremely limited in the hand flying we do, I may do 3-4 mins worth in a 7 hour flight.It is mostly not about stick and rudder these days.
I think the comparison with a truck driver is spurious.Yes every job has responsibility, however if a truck driver screws up he may kill a few other motorists and write off his wagon (what are these worth £100k ?). If I screw up we are talking a £40m aircraft and 200 passengers, not to mention the negative press which has doomed several airlines after that sort of incident.
Also the business decisions I make on a daily basis have big repercussions - if I fill the aircraft up that's about £40000 of fuel.
Pilots tend to compare their lot with supposedly similar professions, hence the disenchantment when compared with the terms and conditions of some of those. Of course there will always be more lowly,badly paid jobs but I don't sit there thinking, 'actually we are doing quite well compared with the geezer who puts ads for the kebab house through my letterbox'.An unfair and pointless comparison.
I fly Captain on the same aircraft as Easyjet has in it's fleet.
Amongst the required paperwork for my US Carrier to fly to it's various countries near the 'colonies' is an official legal document.
That document legally claims my carrier has insured the aircraft, it's passengers, crew and other damages for greater than $200 Million US Dollars.
Now the US Dollar jokes aside
If I ever found myself flying in the South American mountains with one person (the Captain) in the end responsible for the flight, and the wages for the piloting service was $45K BP per year, I'd quit the next day and never step foot in an airliner than pays it's pilots that amount ever again.
Amongst the required paperwork for my US Carrier to fly to it's various countries near the 'colonies' is an official legal document.
That document legally claims my carrier has insured the aircraft, it's passengers, crew and other damages for greater than $200 Million US Dollars.
Now the US Dollar jokes aside
If I ever found myself flying in the South American mountains with one person (the Captain) in the end responsible for the flight, and the wages for the piloting service was $45K BP per year, I'd quit the next day and never step foot in an airliner than pays it's pilots that amount ever again.
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I can see £100K+ for surgeons being appropriate since their work IS life and death, but I can't see pilots being on the same sheet.
The crew forgetting to set flaps or an anaesthetist administering the wrong dose. Each probably just as unlikely to happen but the consequences far more severe for one of them.
I like to think I am paid to avoid having to make life and death decisions!
I suppose, the basic fundamental difference, is that pilots are expected to take a stable situation and keep it stable. Surgeons are generally regarded for their ability to take an deteriorating situation and make it at least stable and preferably improving.
I came to flying after a successful 20 year career outside of aviation. Certainly I have a good deal in T&Cs compared to my previous life and am very very happy with my lot.
Last edited by Sciolistes; 21st Feb 2011 at 04:27.
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Pay for responsibility.
As one who spent many thousands of hours as a Flight Engineer and, in my pre-civil airline life, drove large passenger coaches to supplement my wage I find the line of "pay us for our responsibility" a bit difficult to reconcile. To me, whether flying in a B747 full of punters or taking 48 people on an overnight coach trip the responsibility factor was the same. In each instance the most important life on board was mine and my avoidance of risk reflected that. Certainly most pilots could become proficient in driving a coach and it is likely that most coach drivers may not be able to become pilots. The risks, however, are much greater in the case of a professional coach driver than those of an airline pilot, or at least statistics would point to that being the case. Does anyone suggest that a coach driver should be paid a similar wage to that paid to an airline pilot? I suspect not. We all have the capacity to accept or decline the terms of employment offered. It is not good for anyone to accept low pay and then spend a lot of time and energy bitching about it.
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There is a perpetual change in the world order, and pilots have been a big sufferer. As aviation has expanded, and become more accessible to the masses, then market forces have prevailed. Add to that that it is still a glamourous job in the eyes of many, and it was bound to find itself in a pay spiral eventually.
Additionally, you can't generally pay your way into being a doctor, or high court judge, and there is generally a fairly static number of those posts. As long as you can pay for your own training, then pay to fly, and reach the minimum required standard, against a background of relatively cheap pax seats then low wages in the airline industry will continue.
Flying is cheaper than ever. People have just become too used to being able to jump on a plane and scoot off to wherever for very little outlay. How long that will continue for is a matter for debate. If we were to go back to air transport being the preserve of the better off, then there would be even more redundant pilots than there is now, but a much more competitive entry level - perhaps up there with doctors and high court judges?
It is interesting to read elsewhere that JET2 is actively targeting RAF leavers as their next tranche of pilots. These are after all pilots that got to where they are purely on merit in an extremely competitive environment. Perhaps there are too many entry points into the system at present? I would suspect though that as long as commercial aviation exists, making money will be the driver.
About 8 years ago, I was in the position where I could have jacked in what I am doing now, retrained and taken a risk entering the aviation market. No guarantees that I would have made the grade, but I am retrospectively glad I didn't.
Getting back to the original question - no, £ 45k isn't enough, but everybody outside of banking is going to have to get used to earning less for a while to come.
Additionally, you can't generally pay your way into being a doctor, or high court judge, and there is generally a fairly static number of those posts. As long as you can pay for your own training, then pay to fly, and reach the minimum required standard, against a background of relatively cheap pax seats then low wages in the airline industry will continue.
Flying is cheaper than ever. People have just become too used to being able to jump on a plane and scoot off to wherever for very little outlay. How long that will continue for is a matter for debate. If we were to go back to air transport being the preserve of the better off, then there would be even more redundant pilots than there is now, but a much more competitive entry level - perhaps up there with doctors and high court judges?
It is interesting to read elsewhere that JET2 is actively targeting RAF leavers as their next tranche of pilots. These are after all pilots that got to where they are purely on merit in an extremely competitive environment. Perhaps there are too many entry points into the system at present? I would suspect though that as long as commercial aviation exists, making money will be the driver.
About 8 years ago, I was in the position where I could have jacked in what I am doing now, retrained and taken a risk entering the aviation market. No guarantees that I would have made the grade, but I am retrospectively glad I didn't.
Getting back to the original question - no, £ 45k isn't enough, but everybody outside of banking is going to have to get used to earning less for a while to come.
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Sciolistes. Passengers lives, whether they be in an aircraft or a coach (or any other form of public transport) are worth an equal degree of safety and require the pilot, driver, helmsman or whomever is in charge to exercise the same degree of responsibility. IMHO there are many similarities and a coach driver certainly encounters more risks on any given trip than does an airline pilot. Just my personal opinion.
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You're comparing apples and oranges, old fella. While driving coaches is arguably more risky than flying an airliner. Is it more risky than flying a twin turboprop into foggy airports all winter? That is the more apt comparison.
The reason airline flying is safer is because the aircraft are designed to be as safe as possible, pilots are trained to a high standard and consistently have to prove their competence and the rules are designed to ensure maximum safety.
Coach drivers on the other hand well.............frankly why are we even having this discussion? It's insulting.
When coach operators and drivers are subject to the same standards as aviation, it will be safer.
Remember too, the average regional/commuter pilot will be on less money than a coach driver. Which job is more risky?
The reason airline flying is safer is because the aircraft are designed to be as safe as possible, pilots are trained to a high standard and consistently have to prove their competence and the rules are designed to ensure maximum safety.
Coach drivers on the other hand well.............frankly why are we even having this discussion? It's insulting.
When coach operators and drivers are subject to the same standards as aviation, it will be safer.
Remember too, the average regional/commuter pilot will be on less money than a coach driver. Which job is more risky?
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There has always been a vast number of people who would like to be an airline pilot, but the supply has historically been limited. This has now changed for a number of reasons:
- if you look at the eye sight requirements for 10 years ago versus now for the initial class 1, there are many more that are able to get a medical.
- traditional routes such as RAF and airline sponsorships had a much higher selection criteria than is now the case.
- pprune etc has allowed people who would otherwise have little understanding of the job of an airline pilot to fully understand how to become one (i.e. a not insignificant proportion of BA cadets had relatives in BA flightcrew)
- modular training has come to the forefront, allowing lots more people to realise their ambition without amassing nearly 1000 hours/ basic CPL route. In summary, this may be a much cheaper option now.
- supply of credit has enabled many students to embark straight onto integrated courses and get fatpl. This has become accepted, and parents willingly re-mortgage their houses, which just keeps the supply coming along nicely.
- integrated schools are now very commercial and will look to fill their boots with students, regardless of real demand.
- the demands of the training are not such to limit the supply of candidates. i.e. basic multi-choice atpl exams etc. Most people are able to pass get a fatpl (completely different question of being a good captain, but that is a risk with all exams).
- European workings regulations mean that there is much more movement and hence supply, i.e. RYR don't need Irish nationals etc.
Against this back-drop, demand has also crept up however with the locos etc recruiting strongly, and I could write a page on this but it is ultimately supply side factors that has led to this situation. It is not to do with pilots being responsible for 100s of people/life or death decisions etc.
- if you look at the eye sight requirements for 10 years ago versus now for the initial class 1, there are many more that are able to get a medical.
- traditional routes such as RAF and airline sponsorships had a much higher selection criteria than is now the case.
- pprune etc has allowed people who would otherwise have little understanding of the job of an airline pilot to fully understand how to become one (i.e. a not insignificant proportion of BA cadets had relatives in BA flightcrew)
- modular training has come to the forefront, allowing lots more people to realise their ambition without amassing nearly 1000 hours/ basic CPL route. In summary, this may be a much cheaper option now.
- supply of credit has enabled many students to embark straight onto integrated courses and get fatpl. This has become accepted, and parents willingly re-mortgage their houses, which just keeps the supply coming along nicely.
- integrated schools are now very commercial and will look to fill their boots with students, regardless of real demand.
- the demands of the training are not such to limit the supply of candidates. i.e. basic multi-choice atpl exams etc. Most people are able to pass get a fatpl (completely different question of being a good captain, but that is a risk with all exams).
- European workings regulations mean that there is much more movement and hence supply, i.e. RYR don't need Irish nationals etc.
Against this back-drop, demand has also crept up however with the locos etc recruiting strongly, and I could write a page on this but it is ultimately supply side factors that has led to this situation. It is not to do with pilots being responsible for 100s of people/life or death decisions etc.
