Pilot wages VS other jobs
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170to5 - couldn't have put it better - absolutely agree.
One thing that seems to surface on this post is the number of people who work in other industries, or are looking to get into the aviation industry, and seem to think that low salaries are acceptable because they desperately want to fly, or that we as professional crew should leave the industry if we are not happy - well, let me tell you - i came into this industry when things were "rosier", less dliluted by bull****, and if you think i should leave because i demand - yes, DEMAND - that my salary reflects the nature of my investment and what goes along with working as a PROFESSIONAL, then i'm sorry to dissapoint but i'm not leaving. I love flying but i will not allow myself to be clouded by that fact, as whilst i love it, i also appreciate the responsibility of the position i hold (see 170to5's post above, sums it up brilliantly) and the fact, even with the most experienced of crews, a sad fact of life is that problems can and will arise that will cost both passengers' and crews lives alike - very rare thankfully but a fact of the profession nonetheless and the T & C's on offer MUST reflect this risk. No excuses.
One thing that seems to surface on this post is the number of people who work in other industries, or are looking to get into the aviation industry, and seem to think that low salaries are acceptable because they desperately want to fly, or that we as professional crew should leave the industry if we are not happy - well, let me tell you - i came into this industry when things were "rosier", less dliluted by bull****, and if you think i should leave because i demand - yes, DEMAND - that my salary reflects the nature of my investment and what goes along with working as a PROFESSIONAL, then i'm sorry to dissapoint but i'm not leaving. I love flying but i will not allow myself to be clouded by that fact, as whilst i love it, i also appreciate the responsibility of the position i hold (see 170to5's post above, sums it up brilliantly) and the fact, even with the most experienced of crews, a sad fact of life is that problems can and will arise that will cost both passengers' and crews lives alike - very rare thankfully but a fact of the profession nonetheless and the T & C's on offer MUST reflect this risk. No excuses.
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If someone looks back at accidents over the years and the pain they cause, then I would think that pilots salaries should reflect all that responsibily. One should ask a simple question: If a loved one has a health problem how much money would you give that doctor to make him/her well? Yes, I know, as much as it takes. So pilots should earn something 'descent' and be motivated at all times, well treated with lots of rest.
Then everybody is happy.
VL
Then everybody is happy.
VL
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I think this is a ridiculously low salary for pilots to be honest, yes it's a huge sum of money to me, however I have not had to spend bucket-loads of money (on the nicer things in life, sold at many an online store etc) and years training to become a pilot and my salary reflects that.
Given the responsibilities I think the salaries for pilots should be a lot higher.
Given the responsibilities I think the salaries for pilots should be a lot higher.
Last edited by somedaywill12; 31st Jan 2014 at 13:23.
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Does anyone know another job where:
You go through 2 sim check, 1 line check and 1 medical check per year.
You can work 14h in a row, start at 2AM or finish at 2AM.
You can be at home as little as 8 days/month.
You don't get more than 2 real WE a month.
You will either fly on Xmas day or new year's eve.
Social life is reduced to nil when flying 900h/year.
The divorce rate among the profession gets close to 80% due to our lifestyle (or more accurately our current lack of lifestyle).
When you get airborne with hundreds of people onboard with a given amount of fuel (less and less thanks to management pressure) you have to bring your plane down safely whatever happens (and the scope of possible problems and mistakes is nearly infinite).
When your airline goes down your only option is to expatriate yourself to crappy places.
Where experience and quality is not rewarded, as you can only expect to join a respected airline at the bottom of the seniority.
I stop the list here as it starts to depress me... but I m sure we could go on like that for a while...
I must say that airlines can be happy that so many pilots still love flying and will never consider changing their job, even when T&Cs become so ridiculously low.
Our only real hope is that this long awaited pilots shortage comes one day soon, and more importantly, that we are all clever enough to fight to get decent T&Cs back. But here again when I read the previous posts I doubt we'll ever manage that!
My advice to youngsters: if you love flying, buy a glider, become a banker and get rich then you'll enjoy flying and travelling (on holidays of course).
You go through 2 sim check, 1 line check and 1 medical check per year.
You can work 14h in a row, start at 2AM or finish at 2AM.
You can be at home as little as 8 days/month.
You don't get more than 2 real WE a month.
You will either fly on Xmas day or new year's eve.
Social life is reduced to nil when flying 900h/year.
The divorce rate among the profession gets close to 80% due to our lifestyle (or more accurately our current lack of lifestyle).
When you get airborne with hundreds of people onboard with a given amount of fuel (less and less thanks to management pressure) you have to bring your plane down safely whatever happens (and the scope of possible problems and mistakes is nearly infinite).
When your airline goes down your only option is to expatriate yourself to crappy places.
Where experience and quality is not rewarded, as you can only expect to join a respected airline at the bottom of the seniority.
I stop the list here as it starts to depress me... but I m sure we could go on like that for a while...
I must say that airlines can be happy that so many pilots still love flying and will never consider changing their job, even when T&Cs become so ridiculously low.
Our only real hope is that this long awaited pilots shortage comes one day soon, and more importantly, that we are all clever enough to fight to get decent T&Cs back. But here again when I read the previous posts I doubt we'll ever manage that!
My advice to youngsters: if you love flying, buy a glider, become a banker and get rich then you'll enjoy flying and travelling (on holidays of course).
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It wasn't that long ago that Ryanair were advertising on these pages that their Captains earned circa 130k per year....... How times have changed 
Not everywhere 
I'm waiting patiently to see how the present advocates of P2F schemes react in 5 years when they get offered ****ty wages due to the cheap influx of replacements willing to pay for their seats.....
Mutt
the days of being pampered in aviation are over,
I'm waiting patiently to see how the present advocates of P2F schemes react in 5 years when they get offered ****ty wages due to the cheap influx of replacements willing to pay for their seats.....
Mutt
I'm quite shocked that a pilot in charge of a multi-million dollar bit of kit, plus a couple of hundred lives, could earn so little. I daresay a lot of people would love to earn 45k but do they have the same level of stress and responsibility as a pilot? I am not in the aviation business, but I use their services quite a lot and I would like to think that as professionals they are properly paid for their level of training and responsibility. If that means airtickets become more expensive, too bad.
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Rush2112, don't think it's so much the day-to-day stresses that most would feel warrant the pay (although is a factor), but more to do with the possibly finite life of a career due to unforseen circumstances - i guess in that aspect it could be compared to a footballer, and you know how well they earn at a premiership level (not suggesting for a minute pilots should earn that amount).
I agree with the comment of expecting the crew to be well paid for the training and committment they have to show in order to fly the paying public, i think the best way forward from a traveller is to boycott the LoCo's and use airlines who show maturity and responsibility to both crew and passengers alike - however, IF you decide or have to use a LoCo, please don't think they are low cost on training - i can assure you that any professional pilot regardless of feeling about T & C's is exceptionally well trained, highly skilled and that is testament to their professionalism - and the truth is RYR are one of the best from a training perspective, exceptionally well trained crews from my knowledge.
Seems this problem is perhaps prevalent in the business jet arena as well as only yesterday i heard that new hires are being salaried at £15-19k in one or two operators now. Disgusting.
I agree with the comment of expecting the crew to be well paid for the training and committment they have to show in order to fly the paying public, i think the best way forward from a traveller is to boycott the LoCo's and use airlines who show maturity and responsibility to both crew and passengers alike - however, IF you decide or have to use a LoCo, please don't think they are low cost on training - i can assure you that any professional pilot regardless of feeling about T & C's is exceptionally well trained, highly skilled and that is testament to their professionalism - and the truth is RYR are one of the best from a training perspective, exceptionally well trained crews from my knowledge.
Seems this problem is perhaps prevalent in the business jet arena as well as only yesterday i heard that new hires are being salaried at £15-19k in one or two operators now. Disgusting.
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KDA
Bottom line is
you must
KNOW what your worth.
DEMAND what you deserve
ACCEPT nothing less.
If you fail in any one of these 3 principles, then you really have not earned your potential.
I am sure we will hear all the reasons and rational why x$ amount is ok ,or he should not make so much, or lucky to have a job, bla bla bla.
But those are just excuses used to make your self feel better for failing in any of the 3 rules.
Why do pro ball players make so much? why do Coaches make so much? why do school bus drivers make so little? It all comes down to negotiating and supply VS demand.
good luck.
say it with me now
KDA Know, Demand, Accept.
you must
KNOW what your worth.
DEMAND what you deserve
ACCEPT nothing less.
If you fail in any one of these 3 principles, then you really have not earned your potential.
I am sure we will hear all the reasons and rational why x$ amount is ok ,or he should not make so much, or lucky to have a job, bla bla bla.
But those are just excuses used to make your self feel better for failing in any of the 3 rules.
Why do pro ball players make so much? why do Coaches make so much? why do school bus drivers make so little? It all comes down to negotiating and supply VS demand.
good luck.
say it with me now
KDA Know, Demand, Accept.
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.
I fail to see the link between flying a multi-million piece of kit and how much you should be paid. Drones used by various air forces cost millions are yet operated from an office with a joy stick by some one not earning anywhere close to 45k.
You may talk about the responsibility factor, however most of the job is done by computers. How many of you guys fly manually?. The jobs is being performed by a computer most of the time.
If you are not happy with what you earn, simple move to another profesion
You may talk about the responsibility factor, however most of the job is done by computers. How many of you guys fly manually?. The jobs is being performed by a computer most of the time.
If you are not happy with what you earn, simple move to another profesion
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Downfall of T&C is not new and is not only in Aviation.
Lots of jobs out there, particulary in engineering/technical/transportation that will require you to have much more training, education and in-debt knowledge of your machine, where you have to work a lot harder and get payed much less. It seems to me most pilots refuse to see this. In my opinion it would be quite naive to think T&C in aviation cant be touched, because we happen to fly shiny jets. Blame who you want but its not going to help you. Accept it or move on... But thats part of the problem isnt it, most guys have nowhere to go outside aviation.... only when enough pilots will stop accepting T&C's things will change, but apparently enough pilot are accepting.
Vtwo, open question; what do you think youre worth? what can you demand?
Lots of jobs out there, particulary in engineering/technical/transportation that will require you to have much more training, education and in-debt knowledge of your machine, where you have to work a lot harder and get payed much less. It seems to me most pilots refuse to see this. In my opinion it would be quite naive to think T&C in aviation cant be touched, because we happen to fly shiny jets. Blame who you want but its not going to help you. Accept it or move on... But thats part of the problem isnt it, most guys have nowhere to go outside aviation.... only when enough pilots will stop accepting T&C's things will change, but apparently enough pilot are accepting.
Vtwo, open question; what do you think youre worth? what can you demand?
Mach 3
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When you've spent £100K getting there, few have got the luxury of starting from scratch again just because they're unhappy with what they've found at the end of the rainbow.
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yes yes, all i do is press buttons, but all a doctor does is cut people up, all a lawyer does is talk, all an accountant does is write down numbers etc etc. bla bla bla.
I get paid for knowing which button to press, and using my brain to decide which button to press when everything goes bang. I don't get paid for what I do, I get paid for what I can do when it all goes to ****.
How often to I fly manually? every time I go to work, at least twice in fact, every take off and every landing, and most of the time inbetween I've got to tell the autopiliot what to do. It doesn't have a "fly to africa" button you know!
I know I shouldn't rise to a troll but this sort of stuff annoys me! I consider myself fortunate that I have a job that I love, and I enjoy going to work everyday (and yes, I've spent 15 years in a previous career doing the professional, stressful 9 to 5 thing, so I love this job even more), but that Doesn't mean that I should be paid any less than I'm worth, just because I like doing it.
I get paid for knowing which button to press, and using my brain to decide which button to press when everything goes bang. I don't get paid for what I do, I get paid for what I can do when it all goes to ****.
How often to I fly manually? every time I go to work, at least twice in fact, every take off and every landing, and most of the time inbetween I've got to tell the autopiliot what to do. It doesn't have a "fly to africa" button you know!
I know I shouldn't rise to a troll but this sort of stuff annoys me! I consider myself fortunate that I have a job that I love, and I enjoy going to work everyday (and yes, I've spent 15 years in a previous career doing the professional, stressful 9 to 5 thing, so I love this job even more), but that Doesn't mean that I should be paid any less than I'm worth, just because I like doing it.
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troll alert?
lol
I am not trying to spar with you guys. I just was just curious as to why people feel that 45k is not an acceptable wage.
The other point is if you are not happy with your job, do some thing else!, simple, find something that you enjoy and live life.
I am not trying to spar with you guys. I just was just curious as to why people feel that 45k is not an acceptable wage.
The other point is if you are not happy with your job, do some thing else!, simple, find something that you enjoy and live life.
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Stable Knight - Are you familiar with the Bombardier Dash 8 Q400 Series?? It puts the F22 and Google's latest Phone to shame really... I mean we just sat and read the paper today, actually the captain spent the majority of the day in the rear galley with the hostie (she looks just like angelina jolie, think he's nobbing her)
The aircraft did everything itself it can even get the Atis, taf's etc and plan diversions alternates etc
It's an amazing job! Can't believe we even get paid for it
The aircraft did everything itself it can even get the Atis, taf's etc and plan diversions alternates etc
It's an amazing job! Can't believe we even get paid for it