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Join Date: Mar 2001
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Interesting
As you say Reamer no pay rise in Ryan Air for 3 years and you chaps don't think you need a union??
It just proves beautifully that unions are able to protect worker interests to some degree and non-unionised companies merely exploit their workforce. You can bet your bottom dollar that Michael O'Leary hasn't had his pay frozen for the past 3 years.
I simply do not understand why on earth you don't all just sign up to become BALPA or IALPA approved. It's an anynymous ballot and once you achieve the required % you're represented.
I recently watched Michael Moore's film 'Capitalism a Love Story' - it was illuminating in many respects but what it highlighted to me is that unfettered capitalism is brilliant for the likes of Michael O'Leary/Jim French/the Board of Directors but it delivers a world of pain for everyone else. I think the past decade or two is indeed proof of this. Not surprising then that the view of the executives/the stock exchange/the bankers has been shouted loudly from every rooftop. The surprising thing is that the rest of us have fallen for it and allowed ourselves to become pawns in their game and we are the only losers. Basically we have voted for a system that benefits 1% of the population and leads to the other 99% suffering...
Lets hope that some at least are beginning to see the light.
Desk-pilot
It just proves beautifully that unions are able to protect worker interests to some degree and non-unionised companies merely exploit their workforce. You can bet your bottom dollar that Michael O'Leary hasn't had his pay frozen for the past 3 years.
I simply do not understand why on earth you don't all just sign up to become BALPA or IALPA approved. It's an anynymous ballot and once you achieve the required % you're represented.
I recently watched Michael Moore's film 'Capitalism a Love Story' - it was illuminating in many respects but what it highlighted to me is that unfettered capitalism is brilliant for the likes of Michael O'Leary/Jim French/the Board of Directors but it delivers a world of pain for everyone else. I think the past decade or two is indeed proof of this. Not surprising then that the view of the executives/the stock exchange/the bankers has been shouted loudly from every rooftop. The surprising thing is that the rest of us have fallen for it and allowed ourselves to become pawns in their game and we are the only losers. Basically we have voted for a system that benefits 1% of the population and leads to the other 99% suffering...
Lets hope that some at least are beginning to see the light.
Desk-pilot
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
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Question: when does an airline become merely a money making maximising profit enterprise, and cease to be a customer service employee career quality place to be for both? Answers on a post card ..........
I'd always thought the longterm idea in the customer service world was to maintain quality & value of the product and profit would look after itself. A few ups & downs in demand, but overall a solid secure loyal customer base. A good life style for employees attracted the best and reduced turnover. There will be a cross over point where cheapness will not prop-up the lowering of quality, i.e. value falls, and where working conditions, (quality of life) fall below the level of remuneration. Are we anywhere near either yet?
I'd always thought the longterm idea in the customer service world was to maintain quality & value of the product and profit would look after itself. A few ups & downs in demand, but overall a solid secure loyal customer base. A good life style for employees attracted the best and reduced turnover. There will be a cross over point where cheapness will not prop-up the lowering of quality, i.e. value falls, and where working conditions, (quality of life) fall below the level of remuneration. Are we anywhere near either yet?
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Well, BA hasn't given a pay rise since 2008 (in fact, there was a c.5% pay cut in 2009). BALPA would like RPI this year but, realistically, won't get that.
Airlines - like every other company - have always been primarily about making money. Their chosen means of doing that is to fly people and cargo around. Loyal passengers and happy employees don't guarantee a profit.
I suspect that the good times for us in the West and in our industry specifically will never roll again. We shall spend the rest of our careers fighting a rearguard action to maintain what pay and conditions we have left. Talk of large RPI+ pay rises or going on strike is just bluster for the bar. Intelligent unions that know when and in which areas to give and take are our best bet.
Airlines - like every other company - have always been primarily about making money. Their chosen means of doing that is to fly people and cargo around. Loyal passengers and happy employees don't guarantee a profit.
I suspect that the good times for us in the West and in our industry specifically will never roll again. We shall spend the rest of our careers fighting a rearguard action to maintain what pay and conditions we have left. Talk of large RPI+ pay rises or going on strike is just bluster for the bar. Intelligent unions that know when and in which areas to give and take are our best bet.
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Yep. Cathay Pilot Union accepted 15% increase, average 4 yr FO on about 74K GBP plus HK housing allowance, up to 7000 HKD a month paid (approx 5600GBP) overtime payments usually increase take home by up to 50%.
Captains, clearly lot more. New SO/FO not offered HK Housing anymore now most on integrated ( PAX and Cargo) fo 744. If you are Manchester, LHR based tax is worked out on UK duties only, so hardly any to pay as most duties start overseas. Average FO take home £6000 plus Housing , Capt £9000 plus housing.
Captains, clearly lot more. New SO/FO not offered HK Housing anymore now most on integrated ( PAX and Cargo) fo 744. If you are Manchester, LHR based tax is worked out on UK duties only, so hardly any to pay as most duties start overseas. Average FO take home £6000 plus Housing , Capt £9000 plus housing.
Hi Avenger.
Thanks for the info.
Do you guys believe that your net pay/allowances/package etc is now sufficent to make Cathay worth leaving blighty for? (again)
I'm thinking along the lines of:
Is it still worth taking the family to live and work half way around the world in a different culture for the monetary return?
Personally about 15 years ago I could have joined on the B scale based in HK.
Have always wondered if I made a bad decision not to go and would I be closer to retiring if I'd taken the Cathay package.
Simply put does the higher pay not get cancelled out by the higher cost of living out there?
I know lots of people who packed their newest wheelbarrow when moving out.
Some are now full of money some are of course full of regrets
Thanks for the info.
Do you guys believe that your net pay/allowances/package etc is now sufficent to make Cathay worth leaving blighty for? (again)
I'm thinking along the lines of:
Is it still worth taking the family to live and work half way around the world in a different culture for the monetary return?
Personally about 15 years ago I could have joined on the B scale based in HK.
Have always wondered if I made a bad decision not to go and would I be closer to retiring if I'd taken the Cathay package.
Simply put does the higher pay not get cancelled out by the higher cost of living out there?
I know lots of people who packed their newest wheelbarrow when moving out.
Some are now full of money some are of course full of regrets
Last edited by charlies angel; 7th Feb 2011 at 12:58.
Join Date: May 2009
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No union No hope. It really is that simple. Just look at train drivers and air traffic controllers. Strong unions, good t & c's.
Balpa are pretty useless but I'm a member, it's better than nothing plus id rather expend effort improving the union than fighting against the capitalists alone.
Balpa are pretty useless but I'm a member, it's better than nothing plus id rather expend effort improving the union than fighting against the capitalists alone.
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Do you guys believe that your net pay/allowances/package etc is now sufficent to make Cathy worth leaving blighty for?
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Cathy's pedants
Sorry Charlie's Angel, couldn't help myself... as you probably know in Cathay we're practically paid to be pedantic!
On to your question: if you didn't find it worthwhile moving to HKG on B-scale and full housing 15 years ago, you're unlikely to find CX a good bargain now. Sadly the terms and conditions are in terminal decline as in the rest of the industry, and while we have further to fall than some, the trend is the same.
While we may have secured a barely "average" pay-rise recently (average because while it is decent for some pay-scales/crew bases, it is barely more than zero for others), the longer term plan seems to be to get rid of HKG housing, which is what still makes CX one of the better deals in the industry IMHO.
Having said that I'm still fairly happy here!
On to your question: if you didn't find it worthwhile moving to HKG on B-scale and full housing 15 years ago, you're unlikely to find CX a good bargain now. Sadly the terms and conditions are in terminal decline as in the rest of the industry, and while we have further to fall than some, the trend is the same.
While we may have secured a barely "average" pay-rise recently (average because while it is decent for some pay-scales/crew bases, it is barely more than zero for others), the longer term plan seems to be to get rid of HKG housing, which is what still makes CX one of the better deals in the industry IMHO.
Having said that I'm still fairly happy here!
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Fg Off Kite..
To be more accurate, Balpa in BA costs 0.6% after tax relief on the subs and that is easily paid out of the latest pay rise package esp with the retention of increments & the pay scales for new entrants. So with BA recruiting I'd recommend joining Balpa to allow them to continue protect your Ts&Cs, Hotac, Rostering, Scheduling, and bonuses. 
Not sure if I am allowed to publish today's offer but I'll support it.
Not sure if I am allowed to publish today's offer but I'll support it.
Voting just started on 4% deal at BA and an extension to the share scheme we agreed as part of the paycut last year (probably won't pay out this year but there is hope that it might in FY11 and 12). Year 2 not agreed yet, depends on CC and management having further discussions, there is increasing pressure on our incremental pay-scales as a result of retirement age changes.
Single set of scales (Capt and FO) with 24 paypoints, SSP's (self-sponsored cadets) are on a lower salary for the first five years. Management are making noises because the NRD in BA used to be 55 and they are now looking at paying out on PP24 for an extra 10 years to most pilots. Although part of last-year's paycut and productivity agreement was supposed to address this for all existing pilots they want to sort something out for the future, in order to get a payrise next year we have to enter into discussions about it amongst other things.
Join Date: May 2008
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Any payrise at BA Cityflyer this year?
ppjn reports 2% agreed back in Sept. 2010, I assume backdated for last year. Does Balpa negotiate or are CFE pilots awarded whatever is agreed for BA mainline?
ppjn reports 2% agreed back in Sept. 2010, I assume backdated for last year. Does Balpa negotiate or are CFE pilots awarded whatever is agreed for BA mainline?