BA: financially, when is it no longer worth it?
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P,
It wasn't and I love it.
Not good for my liver though..
Without joking, it was the right choice for me, I couldnt do the repetitiveness of 5/4/5/3 and Ezy's operation for the rest of my career. But as you say, there are things more important than a job, so I wish you well with your choice.
If you've got any questions feel free to pm me.
Anyway, off to the pool on the other side of the globe
It wasn't and I love it.
Not good for my liver though..
Without joking, it was the right choice for me, I couldnt do the repetitiveness of 5/4/5/3 and Ezy's operation for the rest of my career. But as you say, there are things more important than a job, so I wish you well with your choice.
If you've got any questions feel free to pm me.
Anyway, off to the pool on the other side of the globe
Last edited by Dutchjock; 5th Nov 2010 at 17:10. Reason: Crossed post
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At least at BA you would have a number of years of working weekends and then you might have more control over your life. Something you will never have at EZY.
Your command at BA (after x years) would at least be in London. Not something you can guarantee with EZY.
You're not LHS yet so why not apply. Life is too short for regrets and who says EZY is going to be here for the next 20 years anyway?
BA offers better conditions once the initial pain of being junior has passed.
A good balanced post by Dutchjock, albeit I guess they are single and young!
Your command at BA (after x years) would at least be in London. Not something you can guarantee with EZY.
You're not LHS yet so why not apply. Life is too short for regrets and who says EZY is going to be here for the next 20 years anyway?
BA offers better conditions once the initial pain of being junior has passed.
A good balanced post by Dutchjock, albeit I guess they are single and young!
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You can only make the best decision with the information that you have on the day. There is no crystal ball to tell how the relative fortunes of BA and Easy Jet will ebb and flow, and in these times it would be a braver man than I who would try and make too much of a prediction. All you can do is make your choice, and enjoy it!
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One of the best things about BA is the ability to mix fleets.
Done 4/5 years SH? Try LH for 4 years knowing that you can constantly bid back to SH in the other seat if you don't like it. That ability is worth its weight in gold when you like variety as it allows you the chance to move fleets without moving company.
787 as mixed fleet SH and LH? Who knows hopefully yes and see a return to the nice mixed fleet of the 757/787.
Good luck.
Done 4/5 years SH? Try LH for 4 years knowing that you can constantly bid back to SH in the other seat if you don't like it. That ability is worth its weight in gold when you like variety as it allows you the chance to move fleets without moving company.
787 as mixed fleet SH and LH? Who knows hopefully yes and see a return to the nice mixed fleet of the 757/787.
Good luck.
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I meet more and more captains at EZY who seem to be genuinely fatigued and fed up. Part of the problem is the constant flux of new cadets on 6 month contracts. A lot of captains say it's making them far more tired than they used to be.
Maybe off-topic but not really if you want to stay at EZY, P, but I hear this the whole time too and it’s probably going to get worse.
200 SFO's (company wide) leaving with 300 new CTC cadets/flexi crew arriving over the next 6 months which is why the training department want over 20 new trainers; over double what was initially required.
(Overheard at Burgess Hill last week).....EZY Head of Training is now phoning around the Majors to get an idea of how many EZY SFO's they intend to interview. BA has asked 50/80 forward for interview and this is only round 1. How many more will apply when they properly open up next year? Not sure on Virgin but I do know of one SFO who already has the call for interview. I guess it's to get an idea of the extent of experience dilution.
How will EZY address this 'hole' in 3 years time when no FO has the required experience for command?
It's all a bit late in the day. If BALPA were more pro-active with conditions instead of getting salt and pepper re-introduced.........I must have received over 15 private emails in the past year about crew food but none about pay/conditions. How many silver tin food tops did you save for proof/analysis...!!!
9000 Euros is a good old sum if you only think in Euros but when the pound adjusts, which it will, the sum falls back into line with the UK (which is what it was based upon initially.)
After reading the latest Business Review from management, this will become more relevant. If you read between the lines, it looks like only LGW and MAN will survive in the UK as bases over the next few years. The writing is on the wall for the smaller bases like Bristol. The respective workforces will be made to relocate abroad (East Mids/Newcastle) so lets hope the Euro stays strong for their sake.
Good luck with the decision
Last edited by Craggenmore; 7th Nov 2010 at 00:48.
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Reminds me of my decision
I was 27, 3 years FO Ryanair, 2 years to go for Command (that is what happened to my course mates so i guess it would have happened to me) and i left to Netjets, to enjoy variety of flying, 6 on 5 off and still be based in my own country and city (as with FR) .
Same money, same career prospect as NJE was expanding.
It ended up that my mates are becoming captains one after the other in FR (like it or not) and i am on my year off from netjets forced part time and just got a job offer by Turkish Airlines back on the B737NG based in Turkey for 1+3+forever contract, nice money, 1000 hours a year. BA interview coming in february for me, jenuinely wants to go to BA as i respect the airline and i would like to stabilize also my life a little. Age 30 by the time of the interview. What would u guys suggest?
Stay with Netjets and enjoy the roster (money is below standard) . Make a life a turkish till the turks wants their place back and they kick me out as still a FO?
Go to Emirates (february interview as well but i postponed it 2 times due to lack of will) or go to BA?
All of this depends on the interviews, but THY and Netjets are realities.
Answers to me can help the guy make a decision, who knows, otherwise you call all say i hijected the tread!
D
Same money, same career prospect as NJE was expanding.
It ended up that my mates are becoming captains one after the other in FR (like it or not) and i am on my year off from netjets forced part time and just got a job offer by Turkish Airlines back on the B737NG based in Turkey for 1+3+forever contract, nice money, 1000 hours a year. BA interview coming in february for me, jenuinely wants to go to BA as i respect the airline and i would like to stabilize also my life a little. Age 30 by the time of the interview. What would u guys suggest?
Stay with Netjets and enjoy the roster (money is below standard) . Make a life a turkish till the turks wants their place back and they kick me out as still a FO?
Go to Emirates (february interview as well but i postponed it 2 times due to lack of will) or go to BA?
All of this depends on the interviews, but THY and Netjets are realities.
Answers to me can help the guy make a decision, who knows, otherwise you call all say i hijected the tread!
D
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Craggs, the uncertain future of the UK bases is an important part of my decision process. I have moved enough in my life and I really want to settle. And the way EZY are conducting their regular base reviews is not exactly lending to that! I think unfortunately EZY will never take those relatively small steps required to make the company a nice place to work for life. It could have been Southwest but it's not. I won't be distraught if I don't get the job at BA because the the left hand seat money at EZY will be nice. But the more I think about it the more I believe I'll retire happier after 25 years at BA than after 25 years at EZY even if it means a lower retirement income.
P
P
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"Should you find yourself in a chronically leaking boat, energy devoted to changing vessels is likely to be more productive than energy devoted to patching leaks."
Warren Buffet, 1997
p.s. our Base Captain is also leaving.
Warren Buffet, 1997
p.s. our Base Captain is also leaving.
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i ran the numbers FR against BA
..and it came out that i would be better off going to BA and NEVER getting a command rather than staying at FR with the current rate of decline of T&Cs (losing approx 2-3% per year to inflation). This would be with minimum 20 years left to fly from the changeover. Any longer, the BA option just gets better...
When you look at the differences, don't forget to include the BA perks (ID tickets, decent pension, licence costs paid, food, uniform etc etc etc) as it all adds up, particularly if you like long haul holidays or have family in far flung locations!!
When you look at the differences, don't forget to include the BA perks (ID tickets, decent pension, licence costs paid, food, uniform etc etc etc) as it all adds up, particularly if you like long haul holidays or have family in far flung locations!!
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Perma -well done on having such a balanced decision making process. If all pilots were like you, we'd not be in this horrific mess.
A few observations:
- given the hastle of being a capt these days at EZY with constant p2f/cadets/volunteers (call them what you want), BA is worth the inital cut
- your calculations are based on pay now. Look at what's happened in the last few years alone. EZY are in a race to the bottom with RYR and this will only worsen your working environment there.
- i take it you're LGW based anyway, otherwise the LHR/LGW commute will be painful
- You are in the excellent position of not having a mortgage at 40, and so you don't need every penny unlike many others, and so can think more in terms of lifestyle
- BA pilots spend very little time on pprune which tells you all you need to know!
NSF - it's only you that comes across as very bitter for not having been at BA. We all know there's nothing you'd prefer than to be LHS BA744, instead of trying to justify the underhand tactics of EZY management, when they have their workforce backed into a corner.
A few observations:
- given the hastle of being a capt these days at EZY with constant p2f/cadets/volunteers (call them what you want), BA is worth the inital cut
- your calculations are based on pay now. Look at what's happened in the last few years alone. EZY are in a race to the bottom with RYR and this will only worsen your working environment there.
- i take it you're LGW based anyway, otherwise the LHR/LGW commute will be painful
- You are in the excellent position of not having a mortgage at 40, and so you don't need every penny unlike many others, and so can think more in terms of lifestyle
- BA pilots spend very little time on pprune which tells you all you need to know!
NSF - it's only you that comes across as very bitter for not having been at BA. We all know there's nothing you'd prefer than to be LHS BA744, instead of trying to justify the underhand tactics of EZY management, when they have their workforce backed into a corner.
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well done on having such a balanced decision making process
EZY are in a race to the bottom with RYR
- BA pilots spend very little time on pprune which tells you all you need to know!
You're not wrong there! Some of the few who do have been very helpful however :-). Pretty hard to get an accurate picture of the net monthly income though. Seems to vary a lot from one month to another depending on trips/overtime/base etc.
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Dutchjock - I do not think it is condescending to suggest that we are all driven by desires that are not always sensible or rational. At moments such as this it is good to question that. My observations are that nowhere is that more so than in the airline industry where often choices people make defy logic. That aside, I do recognise that this is a difficult decision, but for someone aged 40, going to BA is a significantly less attractive proposition than for someone younger. In both a balanced and very interesting discussion such as this, the age factor is massive in my judgement in tipping the balance. I am interested to see that people regard 5/3/5/4 as 'boring' - I just see it as a gift - is it not a great thing to be able to book a social engagement a year in advance knowing when you will be off?
FANS - I am disappointed to find you lowering the tone with rather puerile comments. If you knew me you would know that I really am very happy in short haul. You are quite right that I would love to be LHS in a B747 - but only to fly 10 circuits on base training! It's horses for courses my friend - not everyone wants to work for BA or to fly long-haul. I personally am extremely happy where I am. You can take that at face value or call me a liar - the choice is yours.
carbheatout - your question is entirely reasonable. Clearly any airline pilot, on whatever roster pattern, is going to face challenges integrating his work pattern into the 'normal' patterns that the rest of his household almost certainly follow. My own experience is that although I have times of stress due to not seeing everyone, I get significantly more time with my family than other friends who leave the house at 0630 and return exhausted off the London train at 8.00pm. It requires a deal of juggling and occasional disturbed sleep patterns but we certainly make it work well. Family life is a high priority for me, and my own experience of the 5/3/5/4 pattern is very postive in that regard.
Craggenmore has pointed out the potential difficulties of regional UK bases at easyJet - I am not as certain as he is about their demise, but he is right to suggest a doubt exists about their future. As a little aside, during a 2-hour delay for my flight this afternoon, I happened to bump into one of our ex-BA skippers in the crewroom at Gatwick. He was there about 35 years and has held a number of key positions including B777 Fleet Manager. Due to just missing the 55 extension at BA he has worked for us for 7 years and is a delightful and informed guy to speak to. I asked him about his perspective on life at easyJet compared with life at BA. He was balanced and sensible, and his comments would be very relevant to this debate. Permafrost ATPL, please feel free to PM me and I would be glad to point you in his direction to give a truly informed view on your dilemma. He highlighted the breadth of job opportunities outside of pure flying that exist at BA - a big plus point. Offsetting that he mentioned the significant difficulties that have arisen between cabin crew and those pilots who trained as 'strike breaker' cabin crew in the recent dispute. There are definitely pros and cons -
FANS - I am disappointed to find you lowering the tone with rather puerile comments. If you knew me you would know that I really am very happy in short haul. You are quite right that I would love to be LHS in a B747 - but only to fly 10 circuits on base training! It's horses for courses my friend - not everyone wants to work for BA or to fly long-haul. I personally am extremely happy where I am. You can take that at face value or call me a liar - the choice is yours.
carbheatout - your question is entirely reasonable. Clearly any airline pilot, on whatever roster pattern, is going to face challenges integrating his work pattern into the 'normal' patterns that the rest of his household almost certainly follow. My own experience is that although I have times of stress due to not seeing everyone, I get significantly more time with my family than other friends who leave the house at 0630 and return exhausted off the London train at 8.00pm. It requires a deal of juggling and occasional disturbed sleep patterns but we certainly make it work well. Family life is a high priority for me, and my own experience of the 5/3/5/4 pattern is very postive in that regard.
Craggenmore has pointed out the potential difficulties of regional UK bases at easyJet - I am not as certain as he is about their demise, but he is right to suggest a doubt exists about their future. As a little aside, during a 2-hour delay for my flight this afternoon, I happened to bump into one of our ex-BA skippers in the crewroom at Gatwick. He was there about 35 years and has held a number of key positions including B777 Fleet Manager. Due to just missing the 55 extension at BA he has worked for us for 7 years and is a delightful and informed guy to speak to. I asked him about his perspective on life at easyJet compared with life at BA. He was balanced and sensible, and his comments would be very relevant to this debate. Permafrost ATPL, please feel free to PM me and I would be glad to point you in his direction to give a truly informed view on your dilemma. He highlighted the breadth of job opportunities outside of pure flying that exist at BA - a big plus point. Offsetting that he mentioned the significant difficulties that have arisen between cabin crew and those pilots who trained as 'strike breaker' cabin crew in the recent dispute. There are definitely pros and cons -
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Yes, there’s an obvious reason why BA pilots rarely post on PPrune. Rightly or wrongly they perceive that they are on the top of the heap and looking at the goings on at other carriers posted on PPrune, its hard to disagree.
PERMAFROST this is a no brainer, go to BA LONG HAUL only. If in a few years the shine wears off, start looking at PPrune again. But I bet you don’t.
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Incidentally, I had the opportunity to go to BA at 40, but hung on in for the command where I was. At 50, with 15 years of night DLM’s to look forward to, it’s a decision I often regret. (But I do have a nice shiny expensive car!!)
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PERMAFROST this is a no brainer, go to BA LONG HAUL only. If in a few years the shine wears off, start looking at PPrune again. But I bet you don’t.
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Incidentally, I had the opportunity to go to BA at 40, but hung on in for the command where I was. At 50, with 15 years of night DLM’s to look forward to, it’s a decision I often regret. (But I do have a nice shiny expensive car!!)
[/FONT]
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Charter vs BA
Looking for some insight
Im a young pilot SFO at a uk charter airline on a permanent contract.
I have BA interview next year.
Should I leave my charter airline for BA. I would imagine I have 35 years left to work health permitting.
The mixed fleet flying would happen much quicker at charter which is what I want when im young and command I would expect to be 10 years.
Disadvantages I can see in BA are the 5 year freeze on shorthaul. an initial paycut for a few years, And the expense of having to live close to lgw/lhr.Joining the bottom of a seniority queue again.
What would you do?
Im a young pilot SFO at a uk charter airline on a permanent contract.
I have BA interview next year.
Should I leave my charter airline for BA. I would imagine I have 35 years left to work health permitting.
The mixed fleet flying would happen much quicker at charter which is what I want when im young and command I would expect to be 10 years.
Disadvantages I can see in BA are the 5 year freeze on shorthaul. an initial paycut for a few years, And the expense of having to live close to lgw/lhr.Joining the bottom of a seniority queue again.
What would you do?
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I agree that at the age of 40 it is a tough decision - 5 years younger then its still a no brainer.
I do think the net monthly incomes for BA are a little on the low side, especially if you take into account the opportunity for overtime - an extra day can be worth a few hundred quid net at least.
Also nobody here has mentioned the benefits of the BA leave system when combined with bidline. I have one weeks leave at the end of November - through bidding I have blocked my Nov work at the beginning of the month, so I finish on the 15th Nov and return to work on the 7th Dec. I shall be using my free firm ticket to travel to the states in a very nice seat to visit the future in laws for thanksgiving in California. I have a very good mate who got his command this year at Easy who is waiting for his sim check at BA for this exact difference in lifestyle.
For a SH pilot at LHR - I can honestly say that when you compare my roster to the easy equivalent, we definately have a better lifestyle. I don't like early's that much - so I bid for lates, I don't like to work every weekend - so I bid around that aswell, with reasonable success. Before you say "yes but he must be senior" - well I'm not actually in the grand scheme of things. I have been in just over 4 years, but joined towards the front of the last recruitment bulge so shot up the list quicker than average.
I joined BA at 24 - so I am lucky to have a long career ahead - health permitting. I don't think that BA is the be all and end all - but if you talk to any BA pilot, try and find out how many are thinking about leaving to go off to the ME for an early LH command, or to a LC carrier to get an early command - trust me it won't be many if any at all. That should say it all.
Just ask yourself if you genuinely think that you can maintain the 5/4/5/3 roster for 30 years. You may well be able to. I couldn't. Our job can be very routine, and people get stale - myself included, so I am looking forward to the opportunity of moving to a brand new fleet, flying to different places, staying in fantastic hotels, and being paid well to do it. When I have a family in the future - I can then bid back to SH to enjoy many more nights at home. Flexibility is everything as I don't know what I will want and what the missus will want me to do in the future - all I know is that BA provides me with that flexibility as well as providing me with a great quality of life.
Best of luck whatever your decision.
I do think the net monthly incomes for BA are a little on the low side, especially if you take into account the opportunity for overtime - an extra day can be worth a few hundred quid net at least.
Also nobody here has mentioned the benefits of the BA leave system when combined with bidline. I have one weeks leave at the end of November - through bidding I have blocked my Nov work at the beginning of the month, so I finish on the 15th Nov and return to work on the 7th Dec. I shall be using my free firm ticket to travel to the states in a very nice seat to visit the future in laws for thanksgiving in California. I have a very good mate who got his command this year at Easy who is waiting for his sim check at BA for this exact difference in lifestyle.
For a SH pilot at LHR - I can honestly say that when you compare my roster to the easy equivalent, we definately have a better lifestyle. I don't like early's that much - so I bid for lates, I don't like to work every weekend - so I bid around that aswell, with reasonable success. Before you say "yes but he must be senior" - well I'm not actually in the grand scheme of things. I have been in just over 4 years, but joined towards the front of the last recruitment bulge so shot up the list quicker than average.
I joined BA at 24 - so I am lucky to have a long career ahead - health permitting. I don't think that BA is the be all and end all - but if you talk to any BA pilot, try and find out how many are thinking about leaving to go off to the ME for an early LH command, or to a LC carrier to get an early command - trust me it won't be many if any at all. That should say it all.
Just ask yourself if you genuinely think that you can maintain the 5/4/5/3 roster for 30 years. You may well be able to. I couldn't. Our job can be very routine, and people get stale - myself included, so I am looking forward to the opportunity of moving to a brand new fleet, flying to different places, staying in fantastic hotels, and being paid well to do it. When I have a family in the future - I can then bid back to SH to enjoy many more nights at home. Flexibility is everything as I don't know what I will want and what the missus will want me to do in the future - all I know is that BA provides me with that flexibility as well as providing me with a great quality of life.
Best of luck whatever your decision.
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Interesting to see that the discussion is always about "could you do this for 25 years...."
Nobody here seems to take into account, that BA will, with all respect, not
exist in 25 years from now on any more, if they do not change things massively.
And these "adjustments" will also be carried by the employees finally!
Why ?
[---reasons deleted due wrong figures--]
I know, predictions in airline business are hard to make, but BA in its
current state is a dying giant....
PS: I think many of the "Majors" are not able any more to generate enough
"fat" in the upturn to cover the losses in the next downturn.
BA is probably one of them.
Nobody here seems to take into account, that BA will, with all respect, not
exist in 25 years from now on any more, if they do not change things massively.
And these "adjustments" will also be carried by the employees finally!
Why ?
[---reasons deleted due wrong figures--]
I know, predictions in airline business are hard to make, but BA in its
current state is a dying giant....
PS: I think many of the "Majors" are not able any more to generate enough
"fat" in the upturn to cover the losses in the next downturn.
BA is probably one of them.
Last edited by Too Low Terrain; 18th Nov 2010 at 14:48.