BA: financially, when is it no longer worth it?
What? 20 1.5hr sectors from ILS to ILS in a new A320 followed by 4 or 3 days off? For €9k take home a month. Err, Yes.
If money is the topic its tricky to beat €2,250 a week net.
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If money is the topic its tricky to beat €2,250 a week net.
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European perspective
I'm based in Italy as an F/O with easy taking home 5500-6200 euros per month. The present workrate isn't sustainable though, I've been here for 2 years now, and with easy for 4 in total, its bloody tiring! I dont honestly think you could count on working a full career in low cost.
As an aside the present sterling/euro rate is very flattering to a euro salary. However, if you work out here you pay bills etc in euros, also who's to say where the rate will go in future?
just my 2 cents, euro cents obviously
As an aside the present sterling/euro rate is very flattering to a euro salary. However, if you work out here you pay bills etc in euros, also who's to say where the rate will go in future?
just my 2 cents, euro cents obviously
WWW you are comparing apples with pears.
If I use the exchange rate of 10 years ago, a BA capt living in NCE, and thus paying no tax, made 15000€/month! So relying on todays exchange rates and loopholes in the tax laws or special tax agreements isn't the way to go if you want to make a long term decision.
If I use the exchange rate of 10 years ago, a BA capt living in NCE, and thus paying no tax, made 15000€/month! So relying on todays exchange rates and loopholes in the tax laws or special tax agreements isn't the way to go if you want to make a long term decision.
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If I was younger I'd apply to BA, just for the career and the options it offers. Life isn't all about money.
However my friends in BA regularly do 900 hours longhaul. Quite what the medical implications of long term deep night and multiple timezone changes over a potential 30000hr career is going to be interesting.
Not sure how many hours they average on shorthaul at LHR?
However I'm not young anymore, LHS and like being home pretty much everynight so I'll stick with what I've got.....
However my friends in BA regularly do 900 hours longhaul. Quite what the medical implications of long term deep night and multiple timezone changes over a potential 30000hr career is going to be interesting.
Not sure how many hours they average on shorthaul at LHR?
However I'm not young anymore, LHS and like being home pretty much everynight so I'll stick with what I've got.....
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Its surely all personal choice. As for sustainability of EZY lifestyle, I have been in the orange machine for 9 years and find it fine. I do think the variants in LH/SH would be the main attraction at BA but pay and how hard you work isn't too different. I guess as said before, do you want to travel loads and see places or do you prefer to be at home most nights. I certainly wouldn't swap what I have right now but that is largely down to a good home lifestyle in a good base!
Either way, its a nice choice to have and I doubt either would lead to gnashing of teeth ad ashcloth wearing!!
Good luck
Either way, its a nice choice to have and I doubt either would lead to gnashing of teeth ad ashcloth wearing!!
Good luck
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I was under the impression that at BA, with the right seniority, you have the ability to plan your own life how you want it i.e. if you don't want the nightstops you don't bid for that type of roster and stay home every (most) nights? If you want a night in Rome, Madrid or Budapest you bid for it?
Any BA bod care to comment?
Any BA bod care to comment?
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Indeed, the more I read the comments here and the more I think about it all, it's going to come down to personal choice. Horses for courses. Giving up 5/4/5/3 and most nights at home would certainly be hard though!
Staff travel is a big part of it for me. I have close relatives in many parts of the world and besides the fact that it's limited to Europe (mostly), EZY staff travel is rubbish.
Thanks for all the feedback so far. Would be nice to hear from ex-EZYs at BA
P
Staff travel is a big part of it for me. I have close relatives in many parts of the world and besides the fact that it's limited to Europe (mostly), EZY staff travel is rubbish.
Thanks for all the feedback so far. Would be nice to hear from ex-EZYs at BA
P
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Yes but can the Milan chaps fly 5 four sector days in a row for 25 years?
Touche! This is the big question. If it wasn't the case then I wouldn't be going to a BA interview in a couple of weeks!
Touche! This is the big question. If it wasn't the case then I wouldn't be going to a BA interview in a couple of weeks!
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Flew long haul for 6.5 years, totally knackered and v.v fatigued... heaven was two weeks in the same time zone! Spent the past 10+ years with the Orange Order, some weeks honestly tired from too many earlies, sometimes fatigued from 20 sectors in five days, but never as bone numbingly knackered as from long haul with its Jet Lag and fatigue. Yes, sometimes you fly 20/5, but never all f*%@g year round! Remember, mud is the same consistency on both sides of the fence.
Having said that, If I were a lot, lot younger (max late 20's), then I'd still go for the BA option. Anything later, get your jet command, then if you're really bored, go for expat command (Korean, Etihad etc..), but don't expect to come home when you've had enough.
easy
Having said that, If I were a lot, lot younger (max late 20's), then I'd still go for the BA option. Anything later, get your jet command, then if you're really bored, go for expat command (Korean, Etihad etc..), but don't expect to come home when you've had enough.
easy
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5 or 6 years ago I was flying up to 24 sectors a week, 890hrs/year, in the RHS.
Now, with the same airline, I fly half that in the LHS.
Talking about what is sustainable, I wonder how many people in other walks of life, who are taking home €9,000/month net, are working less than 11.45x5 hrs/week i.e., less than 60hrs/week and are able to exploit tax regulations to do so?
No doubt someone will find an exception to the rule, but there is no free lunch these days.
It is purely my own observation, but those people who earn a similar wage to me in different professions are working a lot harder than me in the LOCO industry.
Having worked in another profession and earned nowhere near what I do now, I can do the LOCO thing for the next 25 years.
I will have to as the West tries to claw itself back from the brink of bankruptcy.
Now, with the same airline, I fly half that in the LHS.
Talking about what is sustainable, I wonder how many people in other walks of life, who are taking home €9,000/month net, are working less than 11.45x5 hrs/week i.e., less than 60hrs/week and are able to exploit tax regulations to do so?
No doubt someone will find an exception to the rule, but there is no free lunch these days.
It is purely my own observation, but those people who earn a similar wage to me in different professions are working a lot harder than me in the LOCO industry.
Having worked in another profession and earned nowhere near what I do now, I can do the LOCO thing for the next 25 years.
I will have to as the West tries to claw itself back from the brink of bankruptcy.
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P
Good effort! You took most of the hints I was making...
One disagreement
My "logic" was based on earliest / SH command. So I would agree with 19yrs, not with the "-7 SH" factor you applied.
Given the relatively good P2 long term pay, and better (?) lifestyle, BA might still be a good bet, but if you needed a command at some defined point to make it worthwhile, I'd be wary
NoD
NOD, let me have a got at your algorithm..
One disagreement
To that I will apply what seems to have been the spread between SH/LH time to command: 7 years
Given the relatively good P2 long term pay, and better (?) lifestyle, BA might still be a good bet, but if you needed a command at some defined point to make it worthwhile, I'd be wary
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Sorry about the off-topic, but since it has been raised, how easy is it to change base at EZY? (no pun). If you were a Spanish/Italian national based in the UK, what are your chances of getting a move to those bases? Any requirements? (apart from the obvious that there's a vacancy there...)
You stick you name on the waiting list. After some months\years you get to the top and the next vacancy arising is yours. To move from the UK to a Spanish or Italian base in either seat is a matter of a year or so's wait presently. Bases vary. Gatwick or Luton is fairly easy to get into. Other regional bases such as North Somerset have decade long waiting lists.
Looking at the logbook I have done 787hrs in the last rolling 12 months. Looking at the payslips I have earned (Basic+Sector pay) £104k with pension, bonuses, insurances and share schemes on top of that figure. Without going Jedi and becoming a trainer that's about the top for the UK contract.
All the French, Spanish and Italian contracts pay >30% more than that.
New payscales are currently in negotiation and should be backdated to Sept2010 with an expectation of at least 5%, or, some significant lifestyle improvements. The company has put £5,000,000 on the table as a pre-negotiation opener.
Can't see the point of BA shorthaul from the money angle and the industrial relations 'climate' is something I could do without every day.. Is there still a cheeseboard though?
WWW
Looking at the logbook I have done 787hrs in the last rolling 12 months. Looking at the payslips I have earned (Basic+Sector pay) £104k with pension, bonuses, insurances and share schemes on top of that figure. Without going Jedi and becoming a trainer that's about the top for the UK contract.
All the French, Spanish and Italian contracts pay >30% more than that.
New payscales are currently in negotiation and should be backdated to Sept2010 with an expectation of at least 5%, or, some significant lifestyle improvements. The company has put £5,000,000 on the table as a pre-negotiation opener.
Can't see the point of BA shorthaul from the money angle and the industrial relations 'climate' is something I could do without every day.. Is there still a cheeseboard though?
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Maverick 83 - you are right, it is way off topic and not really honouring to the genuine questions being asked.
For what it is worth, I am very sympathetic to those who wish to go to BA. There is some deep lingering doubt deep within all of us that feels somehow we have not really 'made it' unless we have made it with BA or our equivalent national carrier. And that is what I would like to address. This is essentially an illusion and has led many people to make crazy decisions that amount to career suicide in pursuit of a dream that really has no foundation. Permafrost ATPL is a sincere guy who genuinely wants to do the right thing. The evidence is simply overwhelming that the right thing is not to go to BA - yet the desire still lingers. He is about to be a captain at easyJet, can work anywhere in Europe, earn vast sums of money and still get home to to his lovely wife and kids. He also will work the 5/3/5/4 roster pattern which is a godsend to any aviator. I do not in any way knock BA - they are a great company with a fine history. If you are 24 then there is really nothing to discuss. If you are 40 then you are potentially making a catastrophic error of judgement driven by that indefinable yet palpable inner doubt which says you have to take BA when it is on offer. I fully understand the temptation but the reality is potentially very different. No company has a guaranteed future - BA and easyJet certainly do not. Nonetheless, right now easyJet is a very safe place to be with fantastic promotion opportunities if you are in the right place on the command list. Why throw that away and deliberately decide to spend night after night away from your family when you do not have to? The argument against easyJet is that no one could keep up that pace for ever - it is no different to the pace of life in SH at BA. From me, it is a no-brainer for someone of that age and stage in his career - don't listen to the voices! I genuinely wish you well, but refer you back to my first point - this is being driven by a completely understandable, but essentially irrational, feeling about what 'making it' really means. You are undoubtedly a capable, competent guy - you do not have to prove that by going to BA. I genuinely would wish you well, but any true mate would be warning you that at your age you could find yourself waiting for an eternity to get even a short-haul command. You need to be careful about being driven into a decision that takes you away from your family and into many years of utter professional frustration. Best of luck whatever you decide.
For what it is worth, I am very sympathetic to those who wish to go to BA. There is some deep lingering doubt deep within all of us that feels somehow we have not really 'made it' unless we have made it with BA or our equivalent national carrier. And that is what I would like to address. This is essentially an illusion and has led many people to make crazy decisions that amount to career suicide in pursuit of a dream that really has no foundation. Permafrost ATPL is a sincere guy who genuinely wants to do the right thing. The evidence is simply overwhelming that the right thing is not to go to BA - yet the desire still lingers. He is about to be a captain at easyJet, can work anywhere in Europe, earn vast sums of money and still get home to to his lovely wife and kids. He also will work the 5/3/5/4 roster pattern which is a godsend to any aviator. I do not in any way knock BA - they are a great company with a fine history. If you are 24 then there is really nothing to discuss. If you are 40 then you are potentially making a catastrophic error of judgement driven by that indefinable yet palpable inner doubt which says you have to take BA when it is on offer. I fully understand the temptation but the reality is potentially very different. No company has a guaranteed future - BA and easyJet certainly do not. Nonetheless, right now easyJet is a very safe place to be with fantastic promotion opportunities if you are in the right place on the command list. Why throw that away and deliberately decide to spend night after night away from your family when you do not have to? The argument against easyJet is that no one could keep up that pace for ever - it is no different to the pace of life in SH at BA. From me, it is a no-brainer for someone of that age and stage in his career - don't listen to the voices! I genuinely wish you well, but refer you back to my first point - this is being driven by a completely understandable, but essentially irrational, feeling about what 'making it' really means. You are undoubtedly a capable, competent guy - you do not have to prove that by going to BA. I genuinely would wish you well, but any true mate would be warning you that at your age you could find yourself waiting for an eternity to get even a short-haul command. You need to be careful about being driven into a decision that takes you away from your family and into many years of utter professional frustration. Best of luck whatever you decide.
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Hi P,
I made the move from EZY to BA during the last recruitment drive. I got my command with EZY at a very young age, but couldn't stand the thought of doing the same thing for another 30-odd years and secondly the 5 earlys where killing me.
I was lucky enough to go straight to LH, and I have to say I love it. As someone said earlier, the nights out of bed are very tiring but you're knackered in a very different way. Assuming you do 4 trips a month, of which half are night flights, you're only out of bed for 4 nights a month.
Being very junior I get what's left at the bottom of the pile, but on my fleet that's still a good mix of trips. If you're a family man and appreciate being at home at the weekend, you might be disappointed though.
As I haven't done shorthaul in BA I can't really say too much about it, but it seems they have to be doing many more duty hours than at EZY if they fly 900 hrs a year.
Money wise in your case my guess is you would probably be better of at EZY
It's a lifestyle choice. Less time at home, more time enjoying work, more control over roster (eventually), choice of fleets etc.
With all due respect, worst case you might not pass the selection, or might not get your command for whatever reason, so maybe you should just give it your best shot and see if you have the luxury to decide?
Good luck with whatever you decide
I made the move from EZY to BA during the last recruitment drive. I got my command with EZY at a very young age, but couldn't stand the thought of doing the same thing for another 30-odd years and secondly the 5 earlys where killing me.
I was lucky enough to go straight to LH, and I have to say I love it. As someone said earlier, the nights out of bed are very tiring but you're knackered in a very different way. Assuming you do 4 trips a month, of which half are night flights, you're only out of bed for 4 nights a month.
Being very junior I get what's left at the bottom of the pile, but on my fleet that's still a good mix of trips. If you're a family man and appreciate being at home at the weekend, you might be disappointed though.
As I haven't done shorthaul in BA I can't really say too much about it, but it seems they have to be doing many more duty hours than at EZY if they fly 900 hrs a year.
Money wise in your case my guess is you would probably be better of at EZY
It's a lifestyle choice. Less time at home, more time enjoying work, more control over roster (eventually), choice of fleets etc.
With all due respect, worst case you might not pass the selection, or might not get your command for whatever reason, so maybe you should just give it your best shot and see if you have the luxury to decide?
Good luck with whatever you decide
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NSF,
I understand what you're saying, but I think you make quite a few assumptions that might be true for you, but not necessarily for everyone:
I've never felt I hadn't "made it" if I didn't get to fly for a national airline. I just fancied a choice of SH and LH over my carreer, and a "good" company to achieve that. I'm not married to BA: they provide what I want, and I provide what they want (well so far anyway
)
5/4/5/3 is not a godsend for every aviator, it was one of my main reasons for leaving EZY
Your argument that the pace of SH in BA is probably similar to EZY might be true, but you have the opportunity to change fleets to a lifestyle that does suit you. If you change your mind or your personal circumstances change you change fleets again. That's the upside.
I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but I find that very condescending. This guy isn't trying to impress his mates, he's just trying to make an informed decision
I do agree with you that it's a very important decision. And even a SH command will take an eternity. But a command is not the holy grail for everyone either.
Just my thoughts, and no, I don't do BA recruitment
I understand what you're saying, but I think you make quite a few assumptions that might be true for you, but not necessarily for everyone:
I've never felt I hadn't "made it" if I didn't get to fly for a national airline. I just fancied a choice of SH and LH over my carreer, and a "good" company to achieve that. I'm not married to BA: they provide what I want, and I provide what they want (well so far anyway
)5/4/5/3 is not a godsend for every aviator, it was one of my main reasons for leaving EZY
Your argument that the pace of SH in BA is probably similar to EZY might be true, but you have the opportunity to change fleets to a lifestyle that does suit you. If you change your mind or your personal circumstances change you change fleets again. That's the upside.
You are undoubtedly a capable, competent guy - you do not have to prove that by going to BA
I do agree with you that it's a very important decision. And even a SH command will take an eternity. But a command is not the holy grail for everyone either.
Just my thoughts, and no, I don't do BA recruitment
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roster patterns
Why throw that away and deliberately decide to spend night after night away from your family
I really ask out of genuine interest.
Thanks
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NSF, I know what you are trying to say and there are probably individuals out there who have an irrational desire to fly for BA. I don't think that's the case for me. I have learned in previous lives that working for "prestigious" companies is not always what it's cracked up to be. In fact in my last job prior to aviation, I worked for what was seen as the pinacle of the industry and I earned more than ever before. And I hated it 
Indeed carbheatout, that can be the case. And when that happens with minimum rest, you don't get to see the family.
I have not irrational desire to be a captain ASAP. After 12 years in corporate life, I am happy to go fly and have a nice day out with the chap or chapette sitting next to me. I'm sure getting the left seat is very enjoyable and rewarding, but if it comes with constant exhaustion I'm happy to spend a fair few years in the right hand seat. I meet more and more captains at EZY who seem to be genuinely fatigued and fed up. Part of the problem is the constant flux of new cadets on 6 month contracts. A lot of captains say it's making them far more tired than they used to be.
I also worry about boredom. I like changes, I always have. EZY simply does not offer that. See the world, fly different types, it sounds pretty interesting to me. And as mentioned before, my relatives scattered across the globe make BA staff travel very attractive.
I really think I am trying to get into BA for the right reasons. BUT... I am concerned about the financial aspect. It's hard enough to build yourself a big enough pension these days. And 25 years of EZY captain money would help a lot.
Well maybe the folks at The River will make the decision for me
P
If you (at EZY) are on a row of late duties is it possible that you can be home at around midnight (give or take) five nights in a row?
I have not irrational desire to be a captain ASAP. After 12 years in corporate life, I am happy to go fly and have a nice day out with the chap or chapette sitting next to me. I'm sure getting the left seat is very enjoyable and rewarding, but if it comes with constant exhaustion I'm happy to spend a fair few years in the right hand seat. I meet more and more captains at EZY who seem to be genuinely fatigued and fed up. Part of the problem is the constant flux of new cadets on 6 month contracts. A lot of captains say it's making them far more tired than they used to be.
I also worry about boredom. I like changes, I always have. EZY simply does not offer that. See the world, fly different types, it sounds pretty interesting to me. And as mentioned before, my relatives scattered across the globe make BA staff travel very attractive.
I really think I am trying to get into BA for the right reasons. BUT... I am concerned about the financial aspect. It's hard enough to build yourself a big enough pension these days. And 25 years of EZY captain money would help a lot.
Well maybe the folks at The River will make the decision for me
P
Financially then its a no brainer - take the EZY command in MAD, ROM, MXP and rake in €9,000 a month from now to retirement.
Career wise - seems like you want to join BA and do other things.
I'd give it a go. Life's too short to spend time wondering What If and money isn't everything. Go an experience medium/long haul - you might love it.
WWW
Career wise - seems like you want to join BA and do other things.
I'd give it a go. Life's too short to spend time wondering What If and money isn't everything. Go an experience medium/long haul - you might love it.
WWW