Virgin recruiting soon...
Champagne anyone...?
Yup, above assessments of the company are correct. The rosters are actually pretty good compared to a junior BA 747 FO. The company seems to be on the mend; I'm not particularly fussed if it does end up as a "Virgin Atlanta" as long the balance sheet is sound, the T&Cs continue and we keep getting paid. Yes there are a few bits being eroded here and there but the company has needed the application of some hard-nosed business sense for a while.
Not entirely sure what the "shoddy pay" comment is about tho. From someone with a slender grasp on reality I suspect.
Not entirely sure what the "shoddy pay" comment is about tho. From someone with a slender grasp on reality I suspect.
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My thanks to the current Virgin guys posting info on here (without any bitterness or nonsense that comes from rival pilots/staff from outside airlines!), it helps us hoping to join/start with the company.
As to the "a few bits being eroded", " paid holidays are over", "not sure it will be the longhaul lifestyle many of us want"...
A couple of ques if current guys could give an opinion on...
Are these referring to just the change from 4/5 day holiday destination trips to 3day USA trips or are there more changes to t&c's that us on the outside haven't heard about?
How big a change are the changes having on a persons roster? I.e. a few extra USA per year, half the roster is 3days, roster looks nothing like it did 12months ago?
Is it across all fleets or are some collecting more of the 3day trips than others? I.e. as mostly Airbus routes cancelled are they getting the 3day USA or are the new 787s likely to pick them up?
Really appreciate any answers or personal opinions
As to the "a few bits being eroded", " paid holidays are over", "not sure it will be the longhaul lifestyle many of us want"...
A couple of ques if current guys could give an opinion on...
Are these referring to just the change from 4/5 day holiday destination trips to 3day USA trips or are there more changes to t&c's that us on the outside haven't heard about?
How big a change are the changes having on a persons roster? I.e. a few extra USA per year, half the roster is 3days, roster looks nothing like it did 12months ago?
Is it across all fleets or are some collecting more of the 3day trips than others? I.e. as mostly Airbus routes cancelled are they getting the 3day USA or are the new 787s likely to pick them up?
Really appreciate any answers or personal opinions
Last edited by one day soon; 10th Oct 2014 at 09:23.
Heard a rumour about MPL cadets. Low experience on widebody long haul ETOPS...??
Or would they start with a (partner/different) airline gaining experience before joining VS.
Is this the start of a downward spiral in T&C's ?
Or would they start with a (partner/different) airline gaining experience before joining VS.
Is this the start of a downward spiral in T&C's ?
But I doubt that MPL would work for long haul. My company trains MPL cadets and on limitation is they must start on the narrow body short haul fleet to gain experience quickly. To do 100 hours in a SEP and then go onto being a cruise pilot is going to do nothing for their flying abilities.
They're coming, 100%...after their 250 odd hours on puddle jumpers, they will stay in training for about a year on the 330 before being let loose on unsuspecting Captains!
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I was a 250 hour Shed pilot many moons ago and I had no idea what was going on. Took me a few months of multi sector days and patient skippers till I got useful. When I joined Virgin I had 4000 hours of SH to fall back on. I feel for the cadets whomever they may be, they are going to have to be on the ball and then some. They will get help and support from some but most of the line skippers are unhappy because as they say, they are not trainers. I'm not sure that a year of line training, giving the cadets 1000 hours ish when they come online, is enough. However I may be proved wrong!
As for the current working life....I've been here 9 years and could count the number of 'holiday trips' on 1 finger. We are able to choose preferences for our roster and those of us on the bus with a Far East preference are about to see those options reduce to HKG only. That will affect our rosters, leading to more east coast night stops, which is much a much harder lifestyle.
I'm not sure that morale is all that high either. Better perhaps but the new leaders have yet to prove they are anything but spin. Putting all our eggs in the UK/US basket is risky as well. Once again I may be proved wrong! There is no doubt that the Delta tie up has given us a bit more job security, just not a particularly great job perhaps......
It's still better than SH though and if I was a young lo cost skipper I would give it up for this. There's more to life than money and how many of us get to retirement and think 'I wish I spent more time at work'.
Good luck.
As for the current working life....I've been here 9 years and could count the number of 'holiday trips' on 1 finger. We are able to choose preferences for our roster and those of us on the bus with a Far East preference are about to see those options reduce to HKG only. That will affect our rosters, leading to more east coast night stops, which is much a much harder lifestyle.
I'm not sure that morale is all that high either. Better perhaps but the new leaders have yet to prove they are anything but spin. Putting all our eggs in the UK/US basket is risky as well. Once again I may be proved wrong! There is no doubt that the Delta tie up has given us a bit more job security, just not a particularly great job perhaps......
It's still better than SH though and if I was a young lo cost skipper I would give it up for this. There's more to life than money and how many of us get to retirement and think 'I wish I spent more time at work'.
Good luck.
A complete and utter disgrace if you ask me (cadets to long haul). What kind of industry are we working in where we are allowing this to happen? This is good for nobody. We are fast entering a situation in aviation of one employer for life and no more movement between airlines. If you ever want to move employer then bad luck because they are only taking cadets. If your employer goes bust or are making redundancies then ditto. We are our own worst enemy in this industry, the bean counters should have been stood up to long ago.
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Certainly looks that way. It's sad that these days your first airline will actually be your last airline too.
There is nowhere to go for experienced guys. The only reason why BA are recruiting is because they're chronically short - otherwise they would wait for the own cadets to come online.
If you were to loose your job (particularly as an FO) then there is really nowhere to go in the UK or Europe. It's the sandpit or the dole queue.
I blame the big schools and the airlines as well as the students. They all created the problem. My only hope is that the students who played a part in creating the problem don't loose their jobs as it will be game over for most of them.
There is nowhere to go for experienced guys. The only reason why BA are recruiting is because they're chronically short - otherwise they would wait for the own cadets to come online.
If you were to loose your job (particularly as an FO) then there is really nowhere to go in the UK or Europe. It's the sandpit or the dole queue.
I blame the big schools and the airlines as well as the students. They all created the problem. My only hope is that the students who played a part in creating the problem don't loose their jobs as it will be game over for most of them.
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Forget long haul aspirations in the UK now. The cadet oil slick has seeped over.I don't feel sorry for cadets at all. They're adults. Mind you I'd do the same, and what choice does someone looking to join the industry actually have I guess? I'm still not keen on the sheer arrogrance of some of these cadets you meet. They've not had that job flying sheds and grafting with cargo nets to knock them down a peg.
I still have my "real" letter from VAA, posted to me in the mid 90s as a keen PPL. They explained to a young me that no - they don't take inexperienced chaps - they do not run a cadet scheme as they want people with lots and lots of experience- so go out and get some serious experience and hopefully I'll be there very soon. It was a very nice letter. Talk about glass ceilings, it's ballistic grade glass for experienced guys now.
I still have my "real" letter from VAA, posted to me in the mid 90s as a keen PPL. They explained to a young me that no - they don't take inexperienced chaps - they do not run a cadet scheme as they want people with lots and lots of experience- so go out and get some serious experience and hopefully I'll be there very soon. It was a very nice letter. Talk about glass ceilings, it's ballistic grade glass for experienced guys now.
Last edited by Wireless; 11th Oct 2014 at 10:09.
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Airlines really can't win, can they?
An airline comes up with a properly funded cadet scheme, where people are recruited for aptitude rather than wallet an all people on here do is whinge!!
Don't pretend that long haul is some kind of a black art. If cadets can cope with high intensity short haul, I'm sure they will manage long haul.
An airline comes up with a properly funded cadet scheme, where people are recruited for aptitude rather than wallet an all people on here do is whinge!!
Don't pretend that long haul is some kind of a black art. If cadets can cope with high intensity short haul, I'm sure they will manage long haul.
Tourist
It's not a 'black art' but the huge difference is there are times when you may only get to operate one sector every 6 weeks due to leave, training, heavy crews etc so you need experience. The one sector maybe a Canarsie into JFK on a dirty night, not enjoyable for those that have been there on numerous occasions let alone a new boy on a slippery 330 with low hours and experience.
Don't pretend that long haul is some kind of a black art. If cadets can cope with high intensity short haul, I'm sure they will manage long haul.
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Hmmm some posts seem to have been removed and I'm not sure why?
Either way, a big thanks again to everyone for painting a picture of life in Virgin at the moment and the concerns for the future
Either way, a big thanks again to everyone for painting a picture of life in Virgin at the moment and the concerns for the future
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I think the cadet scheme is only taking about a dozen cadets a year, the majority of new joiners will be experienced, so don't worry, you'll still get your shot. At the moment, 4000 hours and a face that fits seems to be about the going rate.
I can't think of any other airline job that would be better in all honesty. 750 hours, decent if not class leading pay, a myriad of part time options and great people to fly with. The new boss seems to know what he's doing and has an airline background thankfully. The management need to prove themselves but, to be fair, early indications are pretty good in my opinion.
If Delta brings long term job security, which I believe it will, then I'm ok with the majority of flying being to the US.
Time to command is a while, at around 12 years, but the RHS isn't a bad place to be and I'd rather take a bit longer and be happy in the RHS than miserable in the left and trust me, there are a few of those jobs around.
I can't think of any other airline job that would be better in all honesty. 750 hours, decent if not class leading pay, a myriad of part time options and great people to fly with. The new boss seems to know what he's doing and has an airline background thankfully. The management need to prove themselves but, to be fair, early indications are pretty good in my opinion.
If Delta brings long term job security, which I believe it will, then I'm ok with the majority of flying being to the US.
Time to command is a while, at around 12 years, but the RHS isn't a bad place to be and I'd rather take a bit longer and be happy in the RHS than miserable in the left and trust me, there are a few of those jobs around.
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Only a dozen cadets per year? When was the last time virgin recruited a dozen pilots per year? In essence what you're saying is that virgin's flightdeck requirements will be made up of cadets for the foreseeable future.
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Maybe so, stopstart, but the comment was "per year". When has virgin ever recruited 12 pilots per year for a sustained period of time? I obviously don't work for them, but I'm just saying from observations that surely they barely employ that many pilots year on year. Very happy to be corrected if numbers will dictate that the majority of recruitment will come from experience based on the figures posted by Eye Off The Ball.
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Yes but that's only the assumed figure, the other assuming thing is that virgin are going to replace them all. Ten years is a long time, nobody really knows what will happen within that timeframe; expansion? Contraction? The only thing that's known is that approximately 200 are due to retire. Also isn't it against the law to hire "cadets" for the sole purpose of bringing down the age demographic? That's ageism in the highest regard.
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The requirement for new joiners is going to shoot up with the looming retirement bulge. I don't have figures but cadets will only form a small proportion of new joiners. So I'm told anyway.