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easyJet pilots, your management are taking the piss now

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easyJet pilots, your management are taking the piss now

Old 4th Mar 2010, 06:28
  #141 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Peoples Republic of EU
Posts: 436
Of current membership 62% look upon the body negatively compared to 38% who are in the positive camp.
How do you know they are members? You don't. Therefore your stupid poll is worthless.

I will not stand idly by as I see the industry I invested 120,000 in destroyed by inactivity, ineffectiveness, division and ambivalence. I am not looking to disband BALPA, I am looking for it to reinvent itself, wake up and take on the rough with the smooth. I think it needs a serious reorganisation of its top personnel, resources and strategies going forward. I have offered suggestions and initiatives that could be employed going forward. What else would you see me do short of a high court gagging order.
Excellent, I'll enjoy reading your manifesto when you stand for election.
Scottie is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2010, 08:11
  #142 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: LGW
Posts: 1,033
Oh hear we go, if you don't like it, pay your subs AND stand for election.

A statement that has cost us many members over the years.

Anything more constructive to say Scottie?

In many ways I agree with Dreamshiner, but I also see that in many ways BALPAs hands are tied thanks to the heavily employer loaded employment laws in this country. Something BALPA and every other union should be doing something about.

Look at the complexities involved in the BA cabin crew dispute, every t must be crossed and i dotted then teams of lawyers go over it and they go to court take out injunctions..................

Then look at our SXF base. Tomorrow morning we strike for the first wave. Done and dusted.

If we did that in the UK we would be out of a job and if BALPA said do it they would be sued by the company.

BALPA walk a fine line in the UK but what they do not do a good job at is communicate and lead from the front ( or top ) and I have told Jim McAuslan this on more than one occassion.

None of us pull in the same direction and if we did then Cor et al may take us a bit more seriously. Nick and team do a great job but are only effective with a solid membership behind them and that we do not have. This is where BALPA fails. It needs a charasmatic leader to rally the troops and herd us like a sheepdog to all point the same way, because I can see that, does that mean I should stand for election Scottie? No, I am not the man for the job, I do think NSF could do a great job for BALPA, but I mean a full time BALPA leader, because Jim McAuslan is a great debater, he is well versed in employment law, he is a great asset to BALPA, but not as top dog.

BALPA does need to reinvent itself, with that I agree 100%, and if people were to look at this unscientific poll and pick it to pieces without even thinking about its results then to me it is clear their heads are in the sand and they are happy with our % membership, our % response to ballots and the continual abuse of our agreements by EZY.

The problem is two fold, people need to sign up to, and back BALPA, but BALPA needs to take that membership, consolidate it and show it can lead and deliver. Otherwise we have the status quo, which is not delivering what we need.
ezydriver is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2010, 11:45
  #143 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Peoples Republic of EU
Posts: 436
Anything more constructive to say Scottie?
What I said was constructive
Scottie is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2010, 12:04
  #144 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In the clouds above
Posts: 260
No election for me Scottie, I'm a professional pilot and when I get into a job again I intend to follow the career as I was advised as a child that if you find a job that's your hobby you will never work again. I have no interest sitting in an office as BALPA general secretary (I did that when I was younger, I made what I had to fund my training and happy I made the career change) or do I feel I would be qualified to get the job. However I am entitled to pass comment or would rather I was restricted?

As I've said before it happens too often on PPRuNe that if you find fault there will always be someone who insists you provide a solution. It's not good enough to question, they feel have to be proactive too.

I was unhappy with the forwards performance during the weekends 6 nations match as I pointed out to my friends in the pub, nobody asked me to furnish the management with a new strategy and send my CV in to apply for a coaching position. However on here, you find fault, you suddenly have to be a crusader for the cause.

All I'm advocating the current leadership team need to do four things, 1st of which is look objectively and not personally at the criticism levelled, recognise that a significant number feel they are ineffective and put measures to address this, 2nd is to walk a mile in another man's shoes (a newly qualified pilot) and recognise the issues he/she faces in 2010, 3rd, combat the disintegration of the whole into separate groups with their own issues, a union works based on all pulling together for common goals, at present there isn't consistency among the CC's, some are more effective and have better relationships with management than others. Exchange of ideas, strategy and best practice could combat this easily, finally 4th, grow a pair and take on the hard issues as well as the easy, otherwise membership will dwindle in the years ahead and as will BALPA's relevance.

I have offered a number of initiatives that I feel would help their cause, goals and perception among our community. I am sure that someone in the senior management keeps an eye on the threads on here and no doubt communicates them to all at their regular meetings.

I agree the poll is not an exact science, its results depend on the honesty and integrity of those viewing the thread and that can't be monitored in the same way that someone could set up a username and post on here with an agenda.

Last edited by Dreamshiner; 4th Mar 2010 at 12:53.
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Old 7th Mar 2010, 13:33
  #145 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 'An Airfield Somewhere in England'
Posts: 1,094
studi - I completely agree with you. I think the most pressing issue we at easyJet face is the issue of contract pilot employment. This issue bothers me more than any other, as it is clearly a union-busting tactic by our Operations Director. He is a totally ruthless individual who has made a complete hash of everything he has touched at easyJet. His shambolic handling of the winter crisis, where he did absolutely nothing was a disgrace. He is personally responsible for the ongoing disaster of crew numbers which is costing us millions. He has managed to alienate himself from just about every employee in the company apart from Andy Harrison. After AH departs, he will find himself a very lonely man indeed - I trust his time at easyJet after that will be very short-lived. How right you are - we do need a scope agreement to prevent contract staff and it must become a top priority for BALPA.

Last edited by Norman Stanley Fletcher; 7th Mar 2010 at 13:59.
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Old 8th Mar 2010, 07:49
  #146 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 376
we do need a scope agreement to prevent contract staff and it must become a top priority for BALPA.

And this should have been done at BALPA yesterday.

joe two is offline  
Old 8th Mar 2010, 09:27
  #147 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Uh... Where was I?
Posts: 1,342
Yes, but don't forget:

You are BALPA. BALPA can be as good as you can make it to be. Not any better. It can be superb. It's up to you.

Don't wait. Tell them to do it. I am sure they will gladly start the fight if they feel they are backed by you. And if they feel that you will not change your mind in the middle of the fight, or that you will be distracted by some stupid thing.

Good luck, mates
Microburst2002 is offline  
Old 8th Mar 2010, 09:40
  #148 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Timbukto
Posts: 12
Do not ask what BALPA can do for you, but what you can do for BALPA.

Stop blaming BALPA and start acting yourself.

hiha is offline  
Old 8th Mar 2010, 10:13
  #149 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: London
Posts: 473
And what exactly are WE expected to do?

Let me see, what HAVEN'T BALPA sorted out:

Crew food
Roster transitions
Crew food
Roster violations
Crew food
Leave booking fiasco
Crew food
Cadet contracts
Crew food
Pay negotiations
Crew food
Positioning pay
Crew food

... and apart from the crew food, we'll now have to deal with contract Captains this summer. BALPA now have a real credibility problem whether they think so or not.

Having bought the dog I don't expect to have to bark myself, that's what I'm paying 700 quid a year for, I'm far too busy flying my backside off...

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Old 8th Mar 2010, 10:28
  #150 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oop north
Posts: 1,129
Do not ask what BALPA can do for you, but what you can do for BALPA.

Stop blaming BALPA and start acting yourself.
I'm sick to death of hearing this rhetoric every time someone dares to criticise the 'work' of BALPA. I don't pay my fees to do stuff for BALPA. I pay for them to do stuff for me. Otherwise I wouldn't bother.

Company Message is right. What do you mean, 'start acting yourself'? What are the ordinary, fee-paying, rank-and-file members supposed to DO, exactly?

The whole point is that the union is supposed to act for you (with your mandate), not the other way around. If we all start 'acting ourselves', as you put it, then what's the point in BALPA even being there?

I'm a member and I want the union to be successful in what it does, but like CM says, they are having a bit of a credibility problem at the moment. I don't blame the CC for this, who are overworked and under-rewarded for what they do; I blame the total lack of leadership and communication from up on high in HQ.
Zippy Monster is offline  
Old 8th Mar 2010, 14:16
  #151 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North West, UK
Age: 52
Posts: 711
Like I said

easyJet pilots, your management are taking the piss now

What are you CC doing about it
EGCC4284 is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2010, 08:48
  #152 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Uh... Where was I?
Posts: 1,342
Zippy you are right

I don't say each one acts on his own. That is exactly what you don't have to do. That is why unionizing is necessary.

I say you all use your phone, call your BALPA representants, and tell them what you feel, what you want, what your worries are.

Even better: Visit them, a few of you at the same time. And then visit them again, and call them, too. I am sure you all would be amazed at how quickly things would start changing.

They are not the general of an army nor you the following orders soldiers. You must take part in the strategy if you feel so. Having representants doesn't mean that you forget about the issues. Your problems are yours, and BALPA is one of the tools you have to solve them. Use that tool. It never works well on its own.

Let them know how worried you all are (if you are). Don't blame them. It is your fault, too. You have to communicate well. That's all. Not easy, however.
Microburst2002 is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2010, 09:03
  #153 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: England
Posts: 186
Leak it to the press like everyone else does.

It is not Queensbury Rules any more.

Fight dirty.

I expect some hard up fellow could make a great Hello Spread from it.

Shattered dreams etc a fool and his money.
Moonraker One is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2010, 09:43
  #154 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 3433N 06912E
Posts: 389
Leak it to the press like everyone else does.

It is not Queensbury Rules any more.

Fight dirty.

I expect some hard up fellow could make a great Hello Spread from it.

Shattered dreams etc a fool and his money.
You think the media gives a flying fk about T&C and payscales?

The media sees pilots as overpaid middle aged, middle class, overpaid ruperts that work two days a week with a week in the Maldives every time they fly while drawing a couple of hundred thousand in pay.

Any view on increased T&C's in the media will be viewed as demanding more time off for crews to sun themselves in an exotic far off land on full pay, or push the costs of tickets up for the customers.

Out of the cost of each ticket, to biggest earner is HMRC/Government*, not the airlines, not the crew, not the shareholders.

Again this misrepresentation of the facts is an abject failure and disables the industry from challenging government policy that physically damages aviation as a viable industry.

* Alistair Darling admitted that revenue generated from APD is being used to bail out banks.

Chancellor Alistair Darling has admitted that Air Passenger Duty (APD) is a tax to help fight the banking crisis, according to reports.

Speaking in London last month, Darling told The Journal: "I am quite blunt about it, we need to raise money to pay for some things we have done.

"If unemployment goes up there is a cost obviously to the family, there is cost in increased benefits, Northern Rock has cost a lot of money."

A Treasury spokesman confirmed to Travel Weekly APD has always been a "revenue raising instrument".
my bold

Darling admits APD will help pay for banking crisis

Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 9th Mar 2010 at 10:52.
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Old 9th Mar 2010, 10:12
  #155 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: dublin
Posts: 26
Exclamation not media but will be putting this case where it will matter.

I would like the details of this particular pay to fly scheme please.
Thanks in advance.


Last edited by beachbud; 9th Mar 2010 at 13:34. Reason: TO KEEP IT CURRENT
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Old 9th Mar 2010, 10:22
  #156 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Under bar stool
Posts: 320
As a Biz Jet pilot BALPA really does not help us. I have however kept my membership going as I believe we as a industry do need a union. The stronger BALPA is as a union in terms of numbers of pilots the stronger their position is against the companies.

Maybe the answer is to also penalise those who join as cadets on these new deals. When the US pilots faced the issue of "pay to fly pilots" I understand they took harsher measures and the number of pilots willing to sign up to these schemes reduced and companies were forced to go back to sensible T's and C's.
African Drunk is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2010, 12:40
  #157 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Великобритания и Москва and US of A
Posts: 319
Agree with a the above a little bit, I wouldnt mind a but of protection in my avaition side of the business. Sooner or later paying for type ratings after paying for thousands on your training then paying for interviews, paying baiscally the whole process to becoming a crew member; eventually allows these hideous contracts that crews end up working under.

As for BALPA im a bit anti unionist after seeing the miners strike effect our part of town . However having said that safety in numbers and having one voice representing a large fraternity sometimes does help. So now what? Join them or not, sign up with a loco and work in these ever degrading terms and conditons .Maybe its time for a career change? Just as people change their careers to pilots. I did hear years ago that 'corporate' is the way forward I wonder if it is

Last edited by dynamite dean; 9th Mar 2010 at 13:07.
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Old 9th Mar 2010, 13:16
  #158 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In the clouds above
Posts: 260
Beachbud - Every UK airline apart from Virgin have taken or currently take low hours pilots and they are given their line training in revenue generating flights with passengers or cargo. They only do this after an advanced course (TR) and simulator time on the aircraft type they will be flying, company acclimatisation and then another simulator session to ensure they are competent (OPC/LPC). When they fly its always with a training captain (a senior pilot who has been flying for a long time and has had additional training too). Upon reaching a sector or hours threshold the FO is assessed and if competent, released to the line and can fly with any fleet captain going forward.

That includes BA taking cadets from OAA, Easy, TCX and Thomson and Monarch from CTC, FlyBe from Cabair, or every airline in the UK from the large number who pursued a modular route to aviation.

The issue highlighted by this thread is one company (Easyjet is not the only one doing this and definitely not the only one considering it) is asking students to pay for an over inflated type rating (a jet TR on the open market ranges from 18,000 to 22,000) and secured line hours, however their is no guarantee of a job at the end and a dangerous precedent could be set if these pilots are cut loose at the end of their contract to allow the next batch in. There is also a large pool of unemployed pilots due to the demise of 6+ UK airlines in the past 2 years, granted not every one will be rated on a 737 or A320, however many believe to hire from this experienced pool rather than from individuals willing to throw money (generally not their own) to gain employment is the wrong way going forward.

The terms and conditions are derisory and ultimately will hurt every pilot going forward if its allowed to continue.

I don't know what your plan is but be careful not to go down the sensationalist route. Your second sentence would lead me to believe you aren't fully aware of how this industry works.
Dreamshiner is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2010, 13:40
  #159 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Europe
Age: 52
Posts: 169
How do the training Capts feel about having to line train these guys? I guess if i felt that strongly about it, i would just go sick every time i was rostered to fly with one............
Global Warrior is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2010, 14:15
  #160 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: dublin
Posts: 26
A high turnover of inexperienced pilots is a concern and not in the least sensationalist. I have had this discussion with senior management pilots and there is a general consensus that we are moving in the wrong direction. There are more than enough examples of experience depletion, dilution. A lack of consistent flying is a safety issue for a brand new pilot and for the passengers who may end up sitting in the backseat, this is occurring now.
I understand pilots by nature are afraid of using the media as I am one.
PS. Read one particular schools FlexiPilot scheme for example.
beachbud is offline  

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