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List of "Pay-to-Fly" airlines

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List of "Pay-to-Fly" airlines

Old 12th Jan 2010, 14:26
  #61 (permalink)  
Haran_Banjo
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despegue , what was your training course ? Did you really paid for the type and line training ?

Because if you did it my darling, why are you talking about to stop this bleeding ?

You have given your contribute to this situation and you are quite pathetic now that you see your position in danger.

Before or after justice come
 
Old 12th Jan 2010, 14:36
  #62 (permalink)  
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Already another Pprune member has already made the same question but I didn't find an answer from yourself.

Could you please explain your background and why someone is asking you to talk about Happag Express????

If you would not give a serious reply , your idea will show it's completely ridicoulus .

They are right : worst pilot enemy is just another pilot .
 
Old 12th Jan 2010, 15:12
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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I agree that many professions require a degree of self-sponsorship to one extent or another, but I would guess that most of these professions have not seen the continual erosion of both salaries and terms & conditions that ours has. The current 'pay to fly' culture and cv covering letters that state things like 'am happy to fly for nothing to get the experience etc. etc.' only has the effect of devaluing the job for everyone.
So how much are we worth as Professional Pilots? What is a sensible salary for a Captain and F/O? Presumably a lot less than it was and certainly a lot less now than other professions with such responsibility. It seems that, as usual, it is only the beancounters who win on all this. I remember a quote long ago from one who described pilots as 'overpaid prima donnas.' The current trend of 'pay-to-fly' schemes must be an accountants dream but is nothing short of slave labour.
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Old 12th Jan 2010, 16:44
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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aa73:

There's a bit more to it big guy. You can take your supply and demand curves and pie charts and flush them down the toilet. I see you are listed as in the USA (there are no Part 135 mins or Part 121 mins over here). A major point of this topic is that the pay to fly schemes are sytematically destroying the industry with every passing hour. You would think an airline would love to interview an experienced pilot. Every airline wants to be safe and experience directly relates to increased safety, right? Nope, the experienced pilot is expensive. Remember that Turkish Air crash at Schipol last year? What do want to bet that the Captain was so frickin' busy making sure that the FO things were being accomplished that he neglected to do one of his routine checklist items? This is wrong. Why not have two "experienced" pilots doing their job? Because it is EXPENSIVE to have two experienced pilots in the cockpit! Airline management could give a rat's ass if the passengers safety is put at risk. You cannot contradict that otherwisae they would have two experienced pilots in the cockpit....get it? Honestly, it is criminal what is going on. And for the people who think this is simply another pilot forum where we bitch about our salaries...please...this is about right vs. wrong on a massive scale.
Agree 100%... the problem does exist in the US and is directly related to low pay corresponding to inexperience. I guess in Europe they put inexperienced pilots in cockpits regardless of pay?
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Old 12th Jan 2010, 16:52
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Hi there,

I'm Lotte, a journalist for the Belgian newspaper De Morgen. A friend of mine told me about the 'abuse' of young pilotes who have to pay airlines in order to fly.

I'd love to make a big story on this, so I'm looking for anyone who can testify about their own personal situation, or can tell me about how it works and what the implications are. For example, I've heard about pilots having to take second jobs in order to pay the airline they're flying for...

So if any of you guys is working (or worked) for what you call 'pay-to-fly' airline, do please contact me on [email protected] or 00 32 472 56 85 20.
Of course you can testify anonymously, I wouldn't want to bring anyone in trouble.

Thanks a lot for your help!

Lotte Beckers
De Morgen
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Old 12th Jan 2010, 17:13
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Hi, DAN WINTERLAND

Yes, any help is welcome. However journalists sleep with politicians, who sleep with industry big fishes, who in turn sleep with journalists. So they may be helping one day, and the other kill us or leave us alone.

It is better, in my opinion, to get the energy for the change from ourselves, and then yes, use the press and any other agent to achieve our goal.

The whole situation is getting worse and worse very rapidly. The deterioration of the profession and its terms and conditions seems to follow an exponential law. People is starting to realise how bad it is and that everybody's job is in peril. The tsunami will never stop. It will reach even the major flag carriers. I feel things could begin to change if we just unite.

I know. Looks like science fiction, but the same would think the Spartans if you told them they would fight a common enemy side by side with the Athens armies.

The threat we face is so serious that fear will be the glue that will stick us and keep us united.

We have to lobby our unions (the ones representing the workers). Make them realise which is the number one priority. Which is the torpedo that is hitting us right below the floating line. What to struggle for in the first place, and that all countries unions have to coordinate to solve this problem together. This can be done in the internet era, don't you think?

Not for the proffession. Not for our pride. Not for justice. Not for the unemployed. But for our jobs!
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Old 12th Jan 2010, 20:01
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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I have more and more trouble controlling my mouth lately
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Old 12th Jan 2010, 20:52
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Lotte,

You could start your investigation (and probably get enough material from them alone) from looking into just one company called EagleJet. The sole purpose of that company is to facilitate and act as a bridge between airlines looking for extra income or have some slack in their training department and newly qualified pilots willing to pay a commercial operation money to be line trained and increase their logbook hours on revenue generating flights.

However pilots are forced to pay in a number of methods from seemingly above board deals with airlines direct, however these pilots will often be charged well above industry standard for a Type Rating course. Indirect Pay to Flying.

The only airlines in Europe that don't follow these practices (at present and I hold my breath here and hope for the future) are the traditional flag/legacy carriers .... i.e. BA, Virgin Atlantic, Lufthansa, Alitalia, AIr France, etc.
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Old 13th Jan 2010, 00:11
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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A pilot's life: exhausting hours for meagre wages | World news | The Guardian
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Old 13th Jan 2010, 00:18
  #70 (permalink)  
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I have never worked for " Hapag Express" nor did I ever pay for line-training.
My first commercial flight ever was with a permanent contract in hand.

Haran_Banjo, Are you feeling the heat? Why feeling cornered by this post? The aim is to improve our industries working conditions, especially for our new and inexperienced collegues.
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Old 13th Jan 2010, 02:45
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Aviation is a scam, it's like the "church of Scientology"

people at the church pays as well to work...

it 's all ILLEGAL.
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Old 13th Jan 2010, 07:06
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Lotte, if you`re serious about this you could perhaps begin your search by looking at one of the roots of this problem; European flightschools! Look at what they "offer" initially, and what they charge for the initial schooling of fresh students. And then look at what they "offer" in terms of further training when it comes to the end of the initial training. Fact is that you most likely won`t be able to land a job straight out of flightschool due to lack of experience. So what often is being offered is pay-to-fly with a commercial carrier for a certain amount of time to gain experience (read flighthours, not stick and rudder experience). It`s these students who are in the midst of their training, and those presently being offered pay-to-fly linetraining that I recommend you have a chat with.

And when your article comes together, could you please post a link here as well? Journalists have somewhat of a bad reputation here, mostly because things get mixed up and misunderstood. Good luck!
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Old 13th Jan 2010, 09:26
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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I have never worked for " Hapag Express" nor did I ever pay for line-training.
My first commercial flight ever was with a permanent contract in hand.

You are a lier my friend

Would you tell us where you did your type rating and what was the deal ?? and what is your background after your type rating plus 100 hours? which company hired you with a permanent contract ? or shall I tell it for you ?

Antonio
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Old 13th Jan 2010, 09:39
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Wind check,

You clearly do not know despegue and know nothing
of his background. So I suggest you retract your
defamatory remark and apologise to him.
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Old 13th Jan 2010, 09:52
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Why cant these PTF wannabees just hold out untill times are better? Couldnt they just stick to a non flying job and rent out a C152/PA28 at their local flying club every weekend or when time permits? Its fun and will save a hell of alot of cash!

P.S Havent BALPA said anything about the PTF schemes?
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Old 13th Jan 2010, 10:09
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Wind check,

You clearly do not know despegue and know nothing
of his background. So I suggest you retract your
defamatory remark and apologise to him.

you are a funny one! I know despegue as much as he knows me. His nationality starts with a B, his first name starts with a T and his family name starts with a C. He his not very tall, and he currently works for a company painted in blue.

Best regards from a friend from Murcia.
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Old 13th Jan 2010, 14:59
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Corendon aırlınes
Ryanaır
Wızzaır
Pegasus
Eaglejet avıatıon
Astreus
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Old 13th Jan 2010, 15:11
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Awhile back there was a post concerning the next step in the evolution of this beast...pay to fly in the left seat. Whoever posted that story, could you re-post it. Is this for real? I would like some validation.
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Old 13th Jan 2010, 15:30
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Of course this will happen. Let's say you have 10000 Hrs, find yourself unemployed, and don't have 500 PIC on a common type. What do you do next? You can'y get a right seat anywhere because those places are for sale. All the contract jobs require 500PIC on type, so you can't go there. So if you can buy 500 PIC on an A 320 or 737NG, then a lot of contract positions become available. $50 000 seems justifiable (disgusting, but justifiable). I am surprised it hasn't happened already.
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Old 13th Jan 2010, 15:56
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Well in that case I stand corrected
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