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List of "Pay-to-Fly" airlines

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List of "Pay-to-Fly" airlines

Old 14th Jan 2010, 17:50
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: commuter
Age: 40
Posts: 226
Type Bonding illegal

i like this...please go on, somebody any input about this?
Damianik is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2010, 18:05
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: in a van down by the river
Posts: 276
TheWanderer: Thank you very much for this information. I wish my German language ability was a bit better because I would like to read the ruling.
lpokijuhyt is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2010, 18:08
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 72
To clarify my previous post:
The type rating concerned was a Boeing 737-300 type rating.
The cost of the rating was contractually defined as 80.000 DEM (before the Euro, converted to Euro it is 40.903,35 EUR.)
The judge's sentence says that a bonding up to 1 year is acceptable, but not more than 1 year.
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 18:13
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London
Age: 53
Posts: 6
lpokijuhyt - German translation

Try using the translator. www.babelfish.yahoo.com. Copy and paste the web address, select the languages (to/from) and there you go.

It misses a few words, but you can get the gyst.
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 20:17
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Age: 46
Posts: 15
Van G

The cadets coming out of training now didn't know it would be like this when they started training. They are desperate, many of them have massive debts, and they will grab any opportunity they get.

I understand what you're saying, and I think the scheme is shocking. I didn't post on this thread to tell people to feel sorry for them. I posted as I found some of the stuff I read on here quite offensive. A friend of mine has recently got his frozen ATPL and is reluctantly considering this option. All I'm saying is don't blame the player, blame the game.
cheakymunkie is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2010, 01:55
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Offshore
Posts: 29
Ipokxxxxx

Why would an airline take you on with 4000 hours -

Especially when you refer to them as scumbags

HR - have done a good job here and eliminated the .........

We want quality and not quantity in your case.
FR1A is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2010, 02:02
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Offshore
Posts: 29
By the way Ipokxxxx

4000 hours and 4 type ratings ain't great value no matter who's paying the bill.
FR1A is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2010, 02:24
  #108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Age: 31
Posts: 43
Ipokxxxxx

Why would an airline take you on with 4000 hours -

Especially when you refer to them as scumbags

HR - have done a good job here and eliminated the .........

We want quality and not quantity in your case.
another stupid comments.
we want quality, ahaha!!! wrong, they want MONEY!!!
HR have done a good job... HR has nothing to say as money decides who will have a foot in the cockpit.

we want quality!!! Mouahahahah! please stay away!

wanabe2010 is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2010, 04:51
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA
Age: 59
Posts: 1
The end is not all that near, but...

As a newbie on this forum I felt that the posts to date have been accurate and kinda scary. I'm a yank and we have been having similar probs on this side of the pond. The only saving grace (although it scares the SH*T out of the airlines) will be the age 65 rule finally catching up with them. Then they'll have to start hiring and training folks at a rate that will make their heads spin and their balance sheets run red. They'll also have to bring back those incentives to keep folks on property, but they won't have a choice. No tricks no, exemptions, no exceptions.

Then and only then will all of these "nice people" start to feel our pain. What's more if the new FAA proposals finally gain traction at some point in time, even the regionals will not be able to go after any one out of flight shool or one of these training academies (which are as close as you can get to pay to play since a lot of them run these so called certificate factories) since the new hiring mins tack on the requirement for a boatload of hours and an ATP.

What happens on this side of the pond will ripple outwards (the airlines would have hoped that it was the other way around with some of the aforementioned cost cutting schemes currently in play in the EU) and its effects will be felt far and wide.

As of now we have deal with them having their boots on our throats. I'm a recent furloughee with a regional airline that was driven into chapter 11 by our management types (guess who was asking the bankruptcy court judge let them keep their bonses?).

Until then keep yer heads down and don't take any crap!
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 07:58
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: in a van down by the river
Posts: 276
FRIA:

I find your willingness to put me down really childish. You don't even know me.

Man, I feel sorry for you. If you are that ignorant, you are truly a lost cause. Don't you get it big guy? The airlines accountants are not concerned with quality (as you stated). Do you think Oxford will promote an integrated ATPL student or modular student to the front of the pack for the airline interview? Geee...which one results in more profit for both the airline and the training organization? Buddy, the HR's movements are controlled by the accountants. Get it?
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 08:13
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Offshore
Posts: 29
Hey Ipokxxx

Sorry mate don't mean to be offensive.

Just trying to make the point that FR don't owe anyone on here a living. And contrary to popular belief on this site, it's not that easy to make the grade. As you know things have slowed down a lot lately and so has recruitment in Ryanair. With regards to training they have better success from freshly minted "cadets". We all know it's a revenue stream, but in fairness to Ryanair they haven't milked it as much as they could have, and only recruit what they need for operational purposes.
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 08:55
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Samsonite Avenue
Posts: 1,520
The cadets coming out of training now didn't know it would be like this when they started training. They are desperate, many of them have massive debts, and they will grab any opportunity they get.

I understand what you're saying, and I think the scheme is shocking. I didn't post on this thread to tell people to feel sorry for them. I posted as I found some of the stuff I read on here quite offensive. A friend of mine has recently got his frozen ATPL and is reluctantly considering this option. All I'm saying is don't blame the player, blame the game.
cheakymunkie

I appreciate what you are saying but bear in mind that this has to be the last option for anyone with big debts!

It is the same as asking your bank for another mortgage when you are struggling to pay the one that already exists!

"Hello Mr Bank Manager. I am in serious debt but I would like to try and sort it out but getting myself into even greater debt. Oh.... by the way I don't have any idea as to when I will be able to pay it off."

It is totally laughable and that is exactly what this farce is - laughable. It is not an 'opportunity' and please please persuade your friend to not embark on such a scheme. In years to come he will be very grateful that you talked some sense into him.
Mister Geezer is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2010, 09:09
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: In my Uniform
Posts: 10
Paying to fly (Work)...

Quote: "The cadets coming out of training now didn't know it would be like this when they started training."

1. Then why doesn't the flight school or academy tell them exactly that as they walk in the door? There are also plenty of Aviation & Aerospace Intelligence and Economic info available in the papers and on the web... Your banker or, at least, your garantor should know about this before handing you the big check!!!

Quote: "They are desperate, many of them have massive debts, and they will grab any opportunity they get."

2. So now what? Getting into more debt is the only solution??? Look, when a Doctor or a lawyer ends his studies, is qualified but inexperienced, does he or she begin to practice by immediately handing out a big fat check to his new employer when joining the team? Don't think so.

Conclusion:

Look, I think the German Gov. has done the rightful thing by limiting the type bonding to one year. (Read thread #103) Other Governments should act in the same way, starting with the US and their food-ticket paid pilots.

Airlines like any other companies have to stop making money out of their employees and pilots now must just start putting an end to this spiraling effect of funding their jobs and working for free.

You young cadet just fresh out of school, do you remember the best way out of a spin? Then why keeping the spiral motion going, if you know what I mean...

And to you experienced guys out there reading this, inside your collective agreements and labor unions or not, just act within your airlines to stop this trend as well. It's not just because you had to pay your way in, that everybody else has to go through the same as you. Bloody act.

In the end it affects you and your future carreer, as well.
Vortex Surfer is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2010, 09:14
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: In my Uniform
Posts: 10
List of " Pay-to-Fly" Airlines update

Just wondering what the list looks like by now.

Wouldn't it be easier to just make a list of which airlines that just normally pay for their pilots training
Vortex Surfer is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2010, 10:57
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The Future
Posts: 38
I saw mention in this thread that easyJet Pilots should get together and strike - why do they need to strike?

Can't BALPA put a case together and take the airline to court over this practice? The Pilots don't really need to get involved here. Yet.

While they're at it, BALPA should take the airlines to court over the ridiculous bonds we have to abide by also.

Someone needs to set a precedent, it's long been talked about in many a flight deck, what would happen if such-and-such was taken to court. With all the money members pay to BALPA, they should take the lead in both these cases.
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 11:52
  #116 (permalink)  
Haran_Banjo
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Airlines like any other companies have to stop making money out of their employees and pilots now must just start putting an end to this spiraling effect of funding their jobs and working for free.
Indeed they should but be honest with ourself, 45% or 55% of them they will go bust. They won't fly anymore due to bankrupcy. Some routes are so hard-fought that airlines have an option of just 1% to make money. That means few seat of difference between to make incomes or to make debts.
 
Old 16th Jan 2010, 12:45
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: In my Uniform
Posts: 10
List of "Pay-for-work" airlines

Quote: "Indeed they should but be honest with ourself, 45% or 55% of them they will go bust. They won't fly anymore due to bankrupcy. Some routes are so hard-fought that airlines have an option of just 1% to make money. That means few seat of difference between to make incomes or to make debts."

If an airline operates with a 1% margin profit, then let them go bust. They don't deserve to be in aviation business. Let the real and truthful competiters take over their routes and hire their pilots with the right contracts to start with.

The other problem is that, as humans, we are all greedy. Pilots included. Sometimes airline unions go a little too far in their demands. But when airlines ask their pilots to pay for work (read abovementioned threads), that's just plainly unlawful.

Where is that list?...
Vortex Surfer is offline  
Old 16th Jan 2010, 13:51
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: manchester
Age: 67
Posts: 452
Can't BALPA put a case together and take the airline to court over this practice?
I suspect the answer to this is 'no' and I doubt that it is due to lack of motivation, they have substantial membership within EZY who are one of the leading PTFers. It is more likely to be because there is no case to answer, all practices being adopted, whilst distasteful to you and I, remain legal. Those who PTF enter a legal agreement with OAA or CTC willingly, the relationship between the the trainers and companies are legal commercial relationships and I have read no evidence of industrial malpractice due to this being suffered by existing employees. It would be ideal if someone could find the silver bullet to fire to stop this odious and insidious practice but I doubt it has yet been made. On another thread it has been suggested that TCs should refuse to train those who PTF but no union could advise or defend that as the TC would then be in breach of contract.

I think that if it is ever stopped it will more likely be due to safety concerns at a European level or European labour laws and this is possibly where BALPA has a part to play.
al446 is offline  
Old 16th Jan 2010, 14:36
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,213
Be resonable !

The thing we have to think about is return on investment, if an airline EMPLOYS you and pays for your type rating they should be able to ensure that they get some return on that investment.
A training bond is an acceptable way of ensuring return on investment IF the bond reflects the true cost of the training and the cost diminishes at a monthly rate over say two years.

The problem we have is that pilots are paying up front for ratings and then being taken on as CONTRACTORS, as a contractor under UK tax law you are required to have more than one sorce of income and be able to determin when you do the work. Now what would be the attitude of Easy Jet (lets say) if a contractor said sorry I am working for another airline today? and did not turn up!

It would seem to me that the best way to shut down the pay to fly thing would be to set the UK tax people off in the direction of these contractors, It is likely that if they find the contractors to be Employees then the airline will have to pick up the tax & IN bill!
A and C is offline  
Old 16th Jan 2010, 15:35
  #120 (permalink)  
Haran_Banjo
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It would seem to me that the best way to shut down the pay to fly thing would be to set the UK tax people off in the direction of these contractors, It is likely that if they find the contractors to be Employees then the airline will have to pick up the tax & IN bill!
Ohhh, finally a brilliant person. If you want to stop this pay to get experience system you have to make it anti-economical for airliners.

This is an option and more useful that to write a simple article probably nobody would read. People are loosing jobs in many areas and some of them don't even afford to get food, imagine if they care to buy a newspaper and read about Mr. Despegue's tears. They would be really sorry for Mr. Despegue unluck, a person who actually started this system by buying T/R and 100 hrs on type
 

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