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List of "Pay-to-Fly" airlines

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List of "Pay-to-Fly" airlines

Old 13th Jan 2010, 16:24
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Offshore
Posts: 29
Ryanair don't charge their pilots to fly.

They pay them to fly.
FR1A is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2010, 16:59
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 72
Originally Posted by lpokijuhyt
Awhile back there was a post concerning the next step in the evolution of this beast...pay to fly in the left seat. Whoever posted that story, could you re-post it. Is this for real? I would like some validation.
I don't have this post you mention, but I personally know of Copilots offering the company to pay for their upgrade training and offered to fly the left hand seat training for their F/O pay, same way as they have already paid for their F/O RHS training.
Fortunately, this case was not accepted by the company due to pressure from the union, but it shows that it happens and that those who buy their typerating as copilot are willing to go further with this.
TheWanderer is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2010, 19:19
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 61
And I too know pilots who have done private deals with management.........and those deals were accepted. Some of us lost our jobs and the ones who paid are still flying.
loftustb is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2010, 10:16
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 26
The Journey to the skies starts here, Become an Airline Pilot ? - Home

If anyone wants a good chuckle check this out, Two pay to fly students; Tens of spelling mistakes in the homepage alone.
captain_quagmire is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2010, 10:31
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Europa
Posts: 612
What a sad state of affairs - and how many real bmi FOs didn't get the chance to develop their skills and get flying pay because of this scheme?

And what job did these 150h line trained kids get? I see their job site is empty.....

Job Forum - The Journey to the skies starts here, Become an Airline Pilot ?
angelorange is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2010, 11:12
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In a nice house
Posts: 981
Also tell the journo to contact BALPA - Carolyn Evans - as she will have lots of info.
Airbus Girl is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2010, 14:23
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: out of a suitcase
Posts: 191
How are the pilots who have bought the right seat going to move up into the left seat with no PIC on type? If seniority doesn't get you there any more, either because the companies don't last long enough, or they only hire DEC's with 500 PIC (which they must have got at another carrier or "parker penned"), how do you get your first common jet type command. It seems inevitable that airlines will start to sell this experience so that people can get over this unfortunate "catch 22" situation.
Rosbif is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2010, 14:41
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Age: 46
Posts: 15
I'm fed up of hearing people blame the new cadets who are "prostituting themselves". They've just paid 70k for training and now they are facing an industry in crisis. They have the choice of paying an extra 30k for a type rating or refusing to do this on point of principal. I suppose they can then enjoy their clear conscience as they stack shelves at Tesco and contemplate repaying there wasted 70k initial training.

How about a bit of respect and encouragement for these up and coming aviators who are the victims of bad timing. The assumption that they are all blowing Daddys money so they can impress their friends with their jobs "flying shiny jets" is rediculous and oh so patronising. I suggest that sort of person is in a huge minority.
cheakymunkie is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2010, 14:56
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: out of a suitcase
Posts: 191
Agreed, and unlike any other trade (which is what it is), the qualifications are perishable. If you don't get a job, in two years you won't be able to get a job without some very expensive retraining. And most employers want you to be current (or recently so) on type.
What is needed is some clear, enforcable, universally recognised legislation which makes it illegal to turn a cockpit seat into a revenue seat. Until we have it, pilots will be forced to pay to play, or leave the industry.
We need a commercial pilot's licence to fly for airlines. The implication is that pilots are paid to be there.
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 15:00
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: uk
Age: 34
Posts: 94
The assumption that they are all blowing Daddys money so they can impress their friends with their jobs "flying shiny jets" is rediculous and oh so patronising. I suggest that sort of person is in a huge minority.

Surely you mean majority?
Skyhigh86 is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2010, 15:49
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Age: 46
Posts: 15
Are there more people in a huge minority or a tiny minority? I don't know... Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that in my experience, people who go throught flight training without a worry about the cost or are doing it to impress their freinds with a cool job, are few and far between.
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 16:18
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Samsonite Avenue
Posts: 1,520
cheakymunkie

I'm fed up of hearing people blame the new cadets who are "prostituting themselves". They've just paid 70k for training and now they are facing an industry in crisis. They have the choice of paying an extra 30k for a type rating or refusing to do this on point of principal. I suppose they can then enjoy their clear conscience as they stack shelves at Tesco and contemplate repaying there wasted 70k initial training.

How about a bit of respect and encouragement for these up and coming aviators who are the victims of bad timing. The assumption that they are all blowing Daddys money so they can impress their friends with their jobs "flying shiny jets" is rediculous and oh so patronising. I suggest that sort of person is in a huge minority.
I was a victim of bad timing - 9/11 was right in the middle of my training! However I have never paid a bean for a type rating, nor sold myself short either.

I will admit that the industry has changed considerably in that short space of time, yet paying for a type rating and working for a packet of mouldy sweets is not the only way of getting a foot on the ladder. I did not carpet bomb every airline but I targeted a few turboprop operators and worked hard to build up contacts and get myself known and get invited for a interview. I Instructed and flew Turboprops and then moved onto Jets then got my command and became a Line Trainer by the time I was 26, so the old 'apprenticeship' route worked very well for me personally. It still does work!

Do I regret taking that path - not in the slightest. I know that I have already seen the best days of my career which is alarming to some extent yet I now have the chance to leave the airline industry and move into the corporate world. I feel somewhat relieved, since I feel the business aviation sector is less likely to resort to the 'dirty tactics' that seem to be so widespread in the airline industry.

Don't let the buggers grind you down and hold onto your cash!
Mister Geezer is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2010, 16:32
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Europa
Posts: 612
Devil Ah poor things need to pay another 34k to get a ......

No they don't need to pay!!!!!!

They need patience and perseverance and character not the flash in the pan X factor, zero to hero if you can get a loan response. They need encouragement to try flying something other than an A320 simulator. Like a year in Africa or working at a Flying Club to gain hours and contacts.

I know a professional pilot who took 8 years just to get a CPL (in the days when you needed 700h minimum). It took him 2 years to save enough for a PPL. He did the postman, welder, stacking shelves jobs and he managed to get a grant to pay for 1k towards training. Now he's a Captain with over 5000h of excellent worldwide flying experience.
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Old 14th Jan 2010, 16:38
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Like a year in Africa or working at a Flying Club to gain hours and contacts.
I agree totally and the old chestnut of 'that does not pay well' no longer washes really when you get paid peanuts after investing serious capital for these so called 'schemes'. (Some one pass me the sick bag please.... It won't be long until pax need to pay to use one of those either )

My other half is a 'tea lady' with the Orange Order and she is embarrassed to talk about how she and everyone else in the cabin earns more than the cadets!
Mister Geezer is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2010, 16:40
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 136
I'm fed up of hearing people blame the new cadets who are "prostituting themselves". They've just paid 70k for training and now they are facing an industry in crisis. They have the choice of paying an extra 30k for a type rating or refusing to do this on point of principal. I suppose they can then enjoy their clear conscience as they stack shelves at Tesco and contemplate repaying there wasted 70k initial training.

How about a bit of respect and encouragement for these up and coming aviators who are the victims of bad timing. The assumption that they are all blowing Daddys money so they can impress their friends with their jobs "flying shiny jets" is rediculous and oh so patronising. I suggest that sort of person is in a huge minority.
So tell me. What about the people who have passed selection with an airline, not with a cheque book, but good old interview and sim check ability, and have now been waiting for years (whilst working menial jobs to pay the bills) for a shot at the RHS only to have one of these pay to fly chaps jump the queue. You expect me (and the many others) to respect them?

You're saying they are the victims?! Give me a break.
Van G is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2010, 16:54
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: In my Uniform
Posts: 10
Paying or no pay/Slavery/Prostitution,etc...

Hi Mister Geezer,

I think it is a good idea that pilots should have a "black list" of airlines that ask their cockpit crews to fund their entry into the company either by:

1. paying in advance their type rating or,
2. having it deducted from their salary or,
3. imposing a sub-scale salary for an extended period of time.

Indeed, even flag carriers impose this "sub-scale" salaries for up to two or three years to recover training costs!...

In the end, no matter how the airline does it, it always comes out the newcomer's pocket. Since training is part of an airline operational cost, it should be paid by the airline and never to be paid (in any form, see above) by the pilot.

I understand, on the other hand, the airline's concern for the newly hired to come in their airline, take a free type rating and then scram to another one. Then, the airline should be allowed to recover its costs. Logical.

Therefore, a type bonding should be the only reasonable solution and should be limited to two ot three years in time, no more. And not 5 years, like we tend to see nowadays...

It is time this aviation prostitution stops. If you want to pay to fly, go buy yourself a private licence and enjoy flying! If you still want to make a career out of it, never accept to fork out the dough. Let your conscience do the right thing and boycott these unscrupulous airlines from taking your parent's, bankers or your money to do the job that make them do profits.
Vortex Surfer is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2010, 17:05
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: in a van down by the river
Posts: 276
I think it is a good idea that pilots should have a "black list" of airlines that ask their cockpit crews to fund their entry into the company
Wow. I could only imagine the size of that list. It would stretch halfway across the Atlantic.

I understand your principles completely. But, the industry has changed into something quite repulsive in the last 2 years. It will never go back to how it once was. Unfortunately, the self funded Type Rating is here to stay. Do I agree with this principle...no way...but it is a fact of life in today's forever changed aviation landscape. I'm telling you, airlines bonding a new hire are like a dinosaur....extinct.

Principles and idealism are great.....except they don't put bread on the table.
lpokijuhyt is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2010, 17:08
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5
do you think spending 105000 is bread on the table??????
flapsfullretard is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2010, 17:14
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: in a van down by the river
Posts: 276
I was talking strictly about buying the Type. I have 4000 hours tt and Typed in 4 different jets....but one of those jets is not a 737. So, can't go the DE Capt route nor am I considered a cadet (since there is no need for me to spend thousands on ratings I already have....that doesn't make me too appealing to the airline or the training centre). So where does that leave me? Out in the cold, brutha.
lpokijuhyt is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2010, 17:47
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 72
In Germany there have been cases going to court for type ratings / repayment / bonding of type ratings.

The Federal Labor Court, which is the highest labour court in Germany, has decided in 1994, that the value of a type rating is binding for maximum 1 year.
All agreements that bind the employee for more than 1 year are void.

The decision is based on multiple facts, including the fact that a type rating is only valid for 1 year and must be renewed after 1 year.

The text of the judgements can be found (in German) at BAG, Urteil vom 16.3.1994 - 5 AZR 447/92 and BAG, Urteil vom 16.3.1994 - 5 AZR 339/92

The same judge has also decided in the first sentence, that a Copilot has usually the status of an employee and not of a self employed, as he gets his roster from the company and has to obeye the orders of the Captain.

Since these are sentences of the Federal Labour Court, these decisions are binding for all Labour Courts in Germany and may be referenced to.
TheWanderer is offline  

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