Easy worse than Ryanair
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This thread really mirrors all the angst amoungst pilots today, things are getting worse across the board and have done so for a few years now. However, over my 25 years in the industry, I have seen the pendulum swing both ways. As a hard up Flying Instructor, I was appalled to hear of FI's paying flying clubs to sit in the Left hand seat (pay to fly A320 FOs wind me up just as much), and when I got my IR there were 180 unemployed 737 drivers on the the books at the Professional Pilots Register at LGW! So the only hope was to buy a turbo-prop rating and try to sell myself! OOPS spot the hypocrite! Well, lets face it, we all are when the chips are down.
So at the moment, everything is **HITE, but it will change. Cast your mind back to 1999-2001, everything was booming and the airlines couldn't recruit crew fast enough, on proper T&C's too. That time will return again, no doubt in a slightly modifeid form, but return it will. What is imperative IMHO is that those of us on good T&Cs absolutely protect them (nod to BALPA here) so that when times get good again, T&C's are brought up again to the highest possible level.
With regard to Pay to Fly cadets, even this has had its day in the more reputable airlines. Where I am, word is that future cadets will go to a prop operator for a time before joining the jet fleet. I suspect that 3 damaged aircraft in 3 years have given the board senior management (when they finally found out about it) a few sleepless nights!! But don't think that cadets are going to disappear, the old self - improver route is effectively dead, and the RAF/NAVY/AAC ranks are much smaller than they were, so the throughput of retirees is much reduced. In-House cadetships are the very antithesis of cost control for modern management, so outsourced cadets it must be!! Ah, only afew years to retirement, thank God.
So at the moment, everything is **HITE, but it will change. Cast your mind back to 1999-2001, everything was booming and the airlines couldn't recruit crew fast enough, on proper T&C's too. That time will return again, no doubt in a slightly modifeid form, but return it will. What is imperative IMHO is that those of us on good T&Cs absolutely protect them (nod to BALPA here) so that when times get good again, T&C's are brought up again to the highest possible level.
With regard to Pay to Fly cadets, even this has had its day in the more reputable airlines. Where I am, word is that future cadets will go to a prop operator for a time before joining the jet fleet. I suspect that 3 damaged aircraft in 3 years have given the board senior management (when they finally found out about it) a few sleepless nights!! But don't think that cadets are going to disappear, the old self - improver route is effectively dead, and the RAF/NAVY/AAC ranks are much smaller than they were, so the throughput of retirees is much reduced. In-House cadetships are the very antithesis of cost control for modern management, so outsourced cadets it must be!! Ah, only afew years to retirement, thank God.
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As a Uk EZY pilot, I agree that the German contract must be to the local standard. The benchmark should be somewhere between Air Berlin and Lufty. There is a danger that UK pilots will think of the exchange rate and play into the managements plan of divide and conquer!! Lets support our German based pilots or we will all pay the price in the long term.
I do know the Management are still not engaging with BALPA and playing games so do not fall for the charm offensive, words mean very little if they are not backed up with actions and the company has continually fallen short in the latter!
I do know the Management are still not engaging with BALPA and playing games so do not fall for the charm offensive, words mean very little if they are not backed up with actions and the company has continually fallen short in the latter!
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Speevy - you worry about your 'facts' and I will worry about mine. The Italian contract is fantastic and that is why there is a vast queue of people trying to get there - that is a fact. A contract like that will not happen in Germany and if you delude yourself it will then you will be massively disappointed. Sorry, but that is the harsh fact of this situation.
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stakeknife - be under no doubt of my intention to support our German colleagues. I also totally agree with benchmarking against local conditions - that does not mean Italian or Spanish contracts. It is critical that we use this current window of opportunity to engage with the company or it will escalate out of control very quickly. My own view is that there will be another throw of the dice in the form of a new offer on German Contacts. The company know how unacceptable the current offer is and that feelings are running high. If not I fear industrial action may be inevitable. I simply do not believe the company can allow the current dissatisfaction spread throughout all bases and they will back down to some extent - the question is how much? BALPA have my complete support and will no doubt be waiting to see the company's next move. Like I have said all along, there has to be a plan and I still believe a compromise is possible that is acceptable to all. That is why I do not believe the German contract issue is the sticking point - we will win that one. The real problem lies in the numerous other little niggles which when taken together makes us nibbled to death by ducks. That is why any compromise solution to the German contract must consider all these other issues. The next few days will be very interesting indeed.
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That is why any compromise solution to the German contract must consider all these other issues. The next few days will be very interesting indeed.
By no means a horse amongst the first-class thoroughbreds of the field, he is from lower-grade stock, resulting in a somewhat neurotic, passive and even grateful nature. As with all geldings, his castration soon after joining his present stable has accentuated his natural qualities, helping him become calmer and better-behaved, making the animal quieter, gentler and potentially more suitable as an everyday working animal.
Given his complete lack of balls, over the last couple of seasons he has demonstrated a disappointing attitude, often laying down and rolling over before the race has passed the first furlong. He's recently been run with blinkers in an effort to prevent distraction from the fact he's been often been ridden backwards, allowing him to be grateful that he has been given a race at all.
500-1 no hoper.
What'll happen? They'll increase the German contract a bit, it'll still be pretty **** by most standards. The rest of the stuff, Yes We Really Must deal with it yes of course, but there's the deadline coming by which we've got to get this contract signed off. It's the German law you see. It's only a few weeks away, if we can't agree to just this increase we'll be forced to revert to the original offer. Now given that glaciers melt faster than the other issues will take to be slow-played, plus the fact you'll be so grateful that you've wrung an illusory increase (but big kudos for not biting at a first offer for once) and that if you start arguing, you're worried you'll lose this increase-it's-not-so-bad-after-all-there-is-a-recession-and-we're-lucky-to-have-jobs, you'll bite their hands off. Naturally, you'll say you'll be back right away to deal with these other issues. They'll be kicked far into the long grass, and you'll have taken another step towards nudging your "career" to where your pension currently resides in the toilet bowl. I'll say well done chaps and everyone can go home (or do to a budget airport hotel on an industrial estate) relieved the victory has been snatched from the jaws of defeat.
Willing to put money on this, if you've got any left.
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Caudillo, speaking as an outsider in all of this, but not I would add in the "low-cost" minefield, I have to say you are probably right.
Norman, I respect, and always derive insight from, reading your posts. I would refute any suggestion that you are on "the other side" or have even dipped a toe in the other camp. What I would say though, is that you give the impression of being too reasonable with those who are incapable of being reasonable back to you. Unfortunately offering a handshake to a greedy callous self serving beast more often results in it being bitten off than shaken.
Regretably, whilst you counsel reasonable behaviour and tolerance, I fear you will receive nothing of the sort from your masters.
Any attempt at reasonableness on your part will be seen as a sign of weakness/meekness, and they will mistakendly scent that you are unwilling to take the chance of a resultant bloodbath.
The only solution when dealing with b@stards is to behave like one too.
You must leave the greedy spineless sh1ts, whose only interest is in lining their grubby little pockets with substantial bonuses earned on your back (and even more so the backs of your pitiful Cadets) in no doubt whatsoever that this is end-game, and if there is nowt for you, there sure as hell will be nowt for them.
Regretably this is the only language their money-grabbing little mind-set understands.
Be reasonable with reasonable people, but you know as well as I do, these guys are just Ryanair-Management wannabees. For gods sake stop the rot before it's too late, or look at yellow/blue to see your future orange fate
.
The next few days will be important for Easy, Gentlemen, please verify your b@lls are in place, time to use them, or forever to repent, & regret that you didn't.
Norman, I respect, and always derive insight from, reading your posts. I would refute any suggestion that you are on "the other side" or have even dipped a toe in the other camp. What I would say though, is that you give the impression of being too reasonable with those who are incapable of being reasonable back to you. Unfortunately offering a handshake to a greedy callous self serving beast more often results in it being bitten off than shaken.
Regretably, whilst you counsel reasonable behaviour and tolerance, I fear you will receive nothing of the sort from your masters.
Any attempt at reasonableness on your part will be seen as a sign of weakness/meekness, and they will mistakendly scent that you are unwilling to take the chance of a resultant bloodbath.
The only solution when dealing with b@stards is to behave like one too.
You must leave the greedy spineless sh1ts, whose only interest is in lining their grubby little pockets with substantial bonuses earned on your back (and even more so the backs of your pitiful Cadets) in no doubt whatsoever that this is end-game, and if there is nowt for you, there sure as hell will be nowt for them.
Regretably this is the only language their money-grabbing little mind-set understands.
Be reasonable with reasonable people, but you know as well as I do, these guys are just Ryanair-Management wannabees. For gods sake stop the rot before it's too late, or look at yellow/blue to see your future orange fate
.The next few days will be important for Easy, Gentlemen, please verify your b@lls are in place, time to use them, or forever to repent, & regret that you didn't.
Last edited by captplaystation; 6th Dec 2009 at 17:18.
Culture
Be of no doubt, our balls are in place (as I am sure NSF's are), but we do this in a very British way. And this way, if you look at British history over the last century, is normally quite successful.
You firstly have to allow the company to react, before you hit them. Here in the UK we consider it impolite and counter-productive to run up to someone and hit them when they are not looking. It's likely to make things worse.
So, we (via Balpa) are laying out our stall. Slowly and carefully we explain our position. And what exactly we will do if nothing is done.
Hopefully then the company will realise that changes are needed, and we can progress without shooting ourselves in the feet.
But if not, then a small shot in the foot may be better than facing the firing squad. When backed into a corner, we believe we fight the hardest.
You firstly have to allow the company to react, before you hit them. Here in the UK we consider it impolite and counter-productive to run up to someone and hit them when they are not looking. It's likely to make things worse.
So, we (via Balpa) are laying out our stall. Slowly and carefully we explain our position. And what exactly we will do if nothing is done.
Hopefully then the company will realise that changes are needed, and we can progress without shooting ourselves in the feet.
But if not, then a small shot in the foot may be better than facing the firing squad. When backed into a corner, we believe we fight the hardest.
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All balls, yet no balls.
What you'll do if nothing is done will be avoided, because something will be done.
You'll be thrown a bit of a sop and put under pressure to accept due to external factors. You'll be given the hard sell and you'll sign.
You have no appetite to go on strike, you'll be secretly relieved that you've been offered an apparent concession and a way out of action.
The other stuff isn't so bad, it'd be nice to have but let's face, it it's going to affect others more than you anyway so is it really worth it, especially in this climate? Ooooh.. naah.
What you'll do if nothing is done will be avoided, because something will be done.
You'll be thrown a bit of a sop and put under pressure to accept due to external factors. You'll be given the hard sell and you'll sign.
You have no appetite to go on strike, you'll be secretly relieved that you've been offered an apparent concession and a way out of action.
The other stuff isn't so bad, it'd be nice to have but let's face, it it's going to affect others more than you anyway so is it really worth it, especially in this climate? Ooooh.. naah.
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I agree with 100% we are not taking any more of this crap coming out of management. A lot of us are not British and we find it very strange how BALPA can put up with all this rubbish, But fair enough i do drive on the left side of the road like everyone else otherwise it would be messy
.
They only have to say the word and let the herd loose and then we will see what happens. There is lot of EZY people that have had more than enough
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Every pilot should say a little prayer before bedtime that BALPA is successful in this fight because it will affect everyone from now until eternity. If we loose this fight we will have 1 orange and 1 green RYR setting the industry standards.......
. They only have to say the word and let the herd loose and then we will see what happens. There is lot of EZY people that have had more than enough
.Every pilot should say a little prayer before bedtime that BALPA is successful in this fight because it will affect everyone from now until eternity. If we loose this fight we will have 1 orange and 1 green RYR setting the industry standards.......
Totto, indeed.
Lessons were learned by all parties (especially the "I don't care because it won't happen to me" lot) over the DTM closure.
Now we see the formation of a plan to destroy the job for all, and the waves are high and far-reaching.
But as NSF says, we have to go through a process first. And there is a chance that our managers have seriously mis-judged the situation and are prepared to cancel the plan.
Lessons were learned by all parties (especially the "I don't care because it won't happen to me" lot) over the DTM closure.
Now we see the formation of a plan to destroy the job for all, and the waves are high and far-reaching.
But as NSF says, we have to go through a process first. And there is a chance that our managers have seriously mis-judged the situation and are prepared to cancel the plan.
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I hope indeed that the SXF happening will come to UK.
Although we drive on the "other" side of the road, these horrible propositions from the company must not go through. We need to stand firm against it all.
We must dare to say "we do not accept this". As I have written before, we cant afford not to take the step to strike if that would be needed.
Yes, process needs to be followed. Problem is that the legislation is tricky and not really made to the benefit for employees- more towards the employer sad enough...
Although we drive on the "other" side of the road, these horrible propositions from the company must not go through. We need to stand firm against it all.
We must dare to say "we do not accept this". As I have written before, we cant afford not to take the step to strike if that would be needed.
Yes, process needs to be followed. Problem is that the legislation is tricky and not really made to the benefit for employees- more towards the employer sad enough...
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Appeasement - look it up Appeasement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is time to try something else, because this s#%t won't stop.
It is time to try something else, because this s#%t won't stop.
The (W) Brady Bunch does Crimbo.
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Caudillo - although I do not agree with a single word you say, your post is one of the best I have read in ages. It really made me roar with laughter - excellent stuff.
At the risk of repeating myself, I am 100% for BALPA and will back any call to arms 100%. I am, however, able to see beyond the end of my nose and a strike is to be avoided if at all possible. That is not weakness - it is the use of common sense. Out Flt Ops Director is a completely unreasonable individual who would shoot his own grandmother to save money on her food bill. I am under no illusion as to what we are dealing with. If we are to strike, and I accept that may be where we are heading, then we have to gain something. It would be so much easier to gain that something by other means.
The tragedy here is that easyJet had a clear choice of directions with regard to industrial relations - the Southwest Airlines model or the Ryanair model. Alas, for reasons that escape me, the have embraced the Ryanair model hook, lone and sinker. Our big advantage compared to Ryanair is our level of unionisation. As others here have alluded to, the sleeping giant is slowly but surely awakening and will win in the end. For all my reluctance to get into a full blown conflict, I am completely prepared to do so for the greater good of stopping the rot. I still hope that the next few days will lbring forth a compromise to prevent the headlong rush into industrial warfare. Time will tell.
At the risk of repeating myself, I am 100% for BALPA and will back any call to arms 100%. I am, however, able to see beyond the end of my nose and a strike is to be avoided if at all possible. That is not weakness - it is the use of common sense. Out Flt Ops Director is a completely unreasonable individual who would shoot his own grandmother to save money on her food bill. I am under no illusion as to what we are dealing with. If we are to strike, and I accept that may be where we are heading, then we have to gain something. It would be so much easier to gain that something by other means.
The tragedy here is that easyJet had a clear choice of directions with regard to industrial relations - the Southwest Airlines model or the Ryanair model. Alas, for reasons that escape me, the have embraced the Ryanair model hook, lone and sinker. Our big advantage compared to Ryanair is our level of unionisation. As others here have alluded to, the sleeping giant is slowly but surely awakening and will win in the end. For all my reluctance to get into a full blown conflict, I am completely prepared to do so for the greater good of stopping the rot. I still hope that the next few days will lbring forth a compromise to prevent the headlong rush into industrial warfare. Time will tell.
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Well said, as always, NSF
I am a long standing non-BALPA member due to a previous dispute resolution. However, I am swallowing my pride and rejoining for the forthcoming discussions. We need to be strong
I am a long standing non-BALPA member due to a previous dispute resolution. However, I am swallowing my pride and rejoining for the forthcoming discussions. We need to be strong
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Slim,
What an entirely predictable and wholly futile posting.
Don't let it trouble you, as it ain't gonna happen anytime soon in Ryanair, as the damp f@rt attempt (so beloved by Leo) at recognition proved earlier this year, but. . . strangely enough , there is another way other than "I'm all right jack" and being a management mouth-piece.
If the guys in Easy have anything left worth fighting for, it's because they got their snouts out of the LTC/TRI/TRE/IRE/BaseCapt trough and acted collectively in the past. An alien concept to you I know, and probably a waste of time @ FR anyhow, but it can & has worked for them in the past, so they should be encouraged to protect what they achieved,or do you prefer everyone else is dragged into the gutter that is "industrial relations" (what a joke ? ) where you are.
Just because you are happy to be totally subservient and accept whatever crumbs fall from the table, doesn't give you the right to deride other, perhaps slightly higher aiming, attempts at "industrial relations".
Don't forget, relations normally equate to two way traffic, within BALPA/ Easy at least there is still a modicum of that in place, a concept long long forgoten, if indeed it ever existed, in the "White House" n'est pas ?
What an entirely predictable and wholly futile posting.
Don't let it trouble you, as it ain't gonna happen anytime soon in Ryanair, as the damp f@rt attempt (so beloved by Leo) at recognition proved earlier this year, but. . . strangely enough , there is another way other than "I'm all right jack" and being a management mouth-piece.
If the guys in Easy have anything left worth fighting for, it's because they got their snouts out of the LTC/TRI/TRE/IRE/BaseCapt trough and acted collectively in the past. An alien concept to you I know, and probably a waste of time @ FR anyhow, but it can & has worked for them in the past, so they should be encouraged to protect what they achieved,or do you prefer everyone else is dragged into the gutter that is "industrial relations" (what a joke ? ) where you are.
Just because you are happy to be totally subservient and accept whatever crumbs fall from the table, doesn't give you the right to deride other, perhaps slightly higher aiming, attempts at "industrial relations".
Don't forget, relations normally equate to two way traffic, within BALPA/ Easy at least there is still a modicum of that in place, a concept long long forgoten, if indeed it ever existed, in the "White House" n'est pas ?
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Playstation, would that be the same BALPA that stuffed the baseball bat up the bmi jacksy when they agreed to let regional 145s operate from LHR in spite of a scope agreement?
The" two way" negotiations that, now, are coming back to bite them with the redundancy programme at mainline?
The" two way" negotiations that, now, are coming back to bite them with the redundancy programme at mainline?
Last edited by The Real Slim Shady; 7th Dec 2009 at 17:48.