Pay pilots better, Hudson River hero urges
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411A, it depends on where you stand. Or better yet, stand your ground. Senior Captains, who at the same time as being in command, also have to act as instructors for non-seasoned, low-timers who have paid their way (talking money, not sweat and tears and sleepless nights etc) to the F/O position DESERVE much more pay than they dare ask for. A lot of these Captains at airlines which hire 250 hour pay-your-way pilots effectively act as single-pilot operators in multipilot aircraft. They work, maybe not double, but at times close to it.
Pilots such as Sully are, IMO, worth 10 times more than pilots who have not lived the experience. An airline Captains job should not be brought back to air taxi/part 135 levels. If you`ve been there, done that and so on, you get 2 things along with your ride...
1. Experinece
2. Integrity
Yes, give this man a beer. He has made a stand on worldwide TV regarding what has, and still is, happening to aviation. He got his 15 minutes and used them well. Twice. And oh yeah... give this crew a raise!
Pilots such as Sully are, IMO, worth 10 times more than pilots who have not lived the experience. An airline Captains job should not be brought back to air taxi/part 135 levels. If you`ve been there, done that and so on, you get 2 things along with your ride...
1. Experinece
2. Integrity
Yes, give this man a beer. He has made a stand on worldwide TV regarding what has, and still is, happening to aviation. He got his 15 minutes and used them well. Twice. And oh yeah... give this crew a raise!
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Why...?
If a doctor decides to change the hospital, clinic, for the other (better pay) he is not going to start at the new post as a nurse… Manager changing the Company is still manager not a clerk… In any other profession, trade, the status is preserved and if one changes the job he starts at the same or usually better monetary level, except in aviation… With exception of those carriers at the Far East the pilot (Captain and/or F/O) changing the airline in US, Canada, Europe, Australia…starts at junior F/O pay level (?), regardless of the years of experience, (same) type of the aircraft and professional qualities. No wonder no one leaves and result is… Companies are cutting the benefits knowing that the Captains, senior F/Os will not leave as long as the present package is better than the starting one in any other airline…
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411A, it depends on where you stand. Or better yet, stand your ground. Senior Captains, who at the same time as being in command, also have to act as instructors for non-seasoned, low-timers who have paid their way (talking money, not sweat and tears and sleepless nights etc) to the F/O position DESERVE much more pay than they dare ask for. A lot of these Captains at airlines which hire 250 hour pay-your-way pilots effectively act as single-pilot operators in multipilot aircraft. They work, maybe not double, but at times close to it.
Senior Captains/Instructors/Check Captains absolutely deserve higher pay...and they get it.
Same for senior line Captains
Regular line Captains as well.
Senior First Officers, too.
That leaves us with the junior FD crew, the new First Officers. Perhaps the most vocal here on PPRuNe.
My suggestion...consider yourselves lucky to have a job at all, never mind the pay...such as it might be.
A simple call to the HR department at your airline will no doubt produce at least half a dozen applicants to take your job.
Yeah, it's a tough 'ole world, out there...like it or lump it.
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You can turn the question around too! 411A, ask yourself; why do some pilots accept being paid less than their equals (airline-airline, regional-regioanl, etc)?
Why are some pilots blinded by the big shiny jets and the glamour of 2 decades ago, buy typeratings as well as hours on type? And why do unions and legislators look in another direction regarding this issue?
Why are some pilots blinded by the big shiny jets and the glamour of 2 decades ago, buy typeratings as well as hours on type? And why do unions and legislators look in another direction regarding this issue?
Pilot Pay - we need more
This thread is a pprune broken record, plays again and again.
Don't like what 411a has to say, well as he says lump it. Fact is he is right and a lot of people don't care for it. So they play the man, not the ball.
Its all supply and demand a beazlebub has made a very accurate assessment of some of those forces. When the supply dries up, prices will go up. In 10 years from now an experienced captain who has the cojones to say no, I want more is going to make a lot of money. If they are prepared to move and sell their services they will get the cash. If you want to sit at some base and wait your turn for deadman shoes don't expect anyone to wave a fistful of cash at you. They own you and they know it.
Braveheart correctly points out a market distortion unique to pilots, the seniority list. Or the serfdom contract. No other group of professionals (Pilots are not professionals by most definitions of the term. No true professional would accept their position being based on seniority as opposed to merit) or skilled technicians would be so stupid to accept such a system. Look who is making good money these days and see if there is a seniority list in sight? The seniority list is a self inflicted wound that had some relevance in the past but is the managers friend and the pilots ball and chain.
A beazlebub points out what is required to do the job in terms of experience has changed, without a detrimental effect to the public. Travel is safer and cheaper. When the RJ was introduced in North America (to break seniority contracts) all the big heads said, they will fall out of the skies, can't fly jets without XX thousand hours blah blah blah. Did not happen. The Colgan accident, a TP not a jet, was just a tiny blip on a trend and is unlikely to change anything.
Fact is the requirements for the job have changed. The old slog to get few thousand hours in to not needed to get into a jet flight deck. The market dictates what people get paid by what people accept.
20driver
Don't like what 411a has to say, well as he says lump it. Fact is he is right and a lot of people don't care for it. So they play the man, not the ball.
Its all supply and demand a beazlebub has made a very accurate assessment of some of those forces. When the supply dries up, prices will go up. In 10 years from now an experienced captain who has the cojones to say no, I want more is going to make a lot of money. If they are prepared to move and sell their services they will get the cash. If you want to sit at some base and wait your turn for deadman shoes don't expect anyone to wave a fistful of cash at you. They own you and they know it.
Braveheart correctly points out a market distortion unique to pilots, the seniority list. Or the serfdom contract. No other group of professionals (Pilots are not professionals by most definitions of the term. No true professional would accept their position being based on seniority as opposed to merit) or skilled technicians would be so stupid to accept such a system. Look who is making good money these days and see if there is a seniority list in sight? The seniority list is a self inflicted wound that had some relevance in the past but is the managers friend and the pilots ball and chain.
A beazlebub points out what is required to do the job in terms of experience has changed, without a detrimental effect to the public. Travel is safer and cheaper. When the RJ was introduced in North America (to break seniority contracts) all the big heads said, they will fall out of the skies, can't fly jets without XX thousand hours blah blah blah. Did not happen. The Colgan accident, a TP not a jet, was just a tiny blip on a trend and is unlikely to change anything.
Fact is the requirements for the job have changed. The old slog to get few thousand hours in to not needed to get into a jet flight deck. The market dictates what people get paid by what people accept.
20driver
captnjs - not really
Southwest pilots are the best paid right now not because of a union, but because their employer has consistently made money year after year. Unlike every other passenger airline in the US. Southwest pilots are at the top of the pile, along with FEDEX and UPS pilots because their employers make money and they don't need to cut pay. Union has didly to do with it.
For many years the SW crews made less and were looked down upon by the big boys. One day I picked up an AA pilots rag and boy did they dump on SW and the SW pilots. In the meantime like a bunch of lemmings they marched off the cliff pretending that Skygods did not have to pay attention to minor details like company profits.
20driver
For many years the SW crews made less and were looked down upon by the big boys. One day I picked up an AA pilots rag and boy did they dump on SW and the SW pilots. In the meantime like a bunch of lemmings they marched off the cliff pretending that Skygods did not have to pay attention to minor details like company profits.
20driver
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Braveheart correctly points out a market distortion unique to pilots, the seniority list. Or the serfdom contract. No other group of professionals (Pilots are not professionals by most definitions of the term. No true professional would accept their position being based on seniority as opposed to merit) or skilled technicians would be so stupid to accept such a system. Look who is making good money these days and see if there is a seniority list in sight?
Even within a seniority based system there has always been scope for taking individuals who display a particular talent, for training or management appointments.
The seniority based systems does a number of things. Firstly it rewards loyalty. That is not a purely altruistic motive on the part of the employer. It has the beneficial effect of reducing the need for training and establishment costs at those airlines by reducing the number of people who might otherwise simply seek greener pastures. It also gives an individual a clear progression scale that should provide motive and incentive. Few people have their eyes on the bottom of these scales, they are all looking at the top. It shows the rewards that are available for a planned career within that company.
Of course when you simply offload all of those training and establishment costs to the candidate themselves, that loyalty is much less important. Let them do what they want, because the next batch waiting in the wings will cough up the money themselves to meet all of these costs. In that case one size might as well fit all. If they don't like it, they can leave. Without a seniority system it lays the company open to charges of bias and unfairness (of which I don't doubt they care little,) if others who joined later are being promoted for no otherwise obvious reason, because somebody happens to like them, or they didn't accidently park in the wrong parking spot. The point when they should be considered should be transparent to all.
In most companies it a fairly low percentage of those pilots that don't achieve the necessary requirements for command. So this idea of special merit, is nothing more than a simple cost saving excercise by those companies that seek advantage by such practices. Good for them, not for the employee necessarily.
A beazlebub points out what is required to do the job in terms of experience has changed, without a detrimental effect to the public. Travel is safer and cheaper.
The Colgan accident, a TP not a jet, was just a tiny blip on a trend and is unlikely to change anything.
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Cant agree more with the last sentence.
I was a cadet for a Major Airline in Europe myself so i had benefits from the 200 hours door open concept, but i see the waves and waves of cabin crew becoming atpl frozen pilots in 8 months time and entering the market as a big problem for all of us "seniors"
D
I was a cadet for a Major Airline in Europe myself so i had benefits from the 200 hours door open concept, but i see the waves and waves of cabin crew becoming atpl frozen pilots in 8 months time and entering the market as a big problem for all of us "seniors"
D
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but i see the waves and waves of cabin crew becoming atpl frozen pilots in 8 months time and entering the market as a big problem for all of us "seniors"
Time to put these folks in the deep freeze.
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411A
Just a thought.
What is "a fair rate of pay" for an airline pilot, lawyer, professional football player, pop music star, F1 driver, bus driver, airline executive, doctor, engineer, soldier?
What justifies the disparities, is it knowledge, skill, hard physical or mental work, risk factors?
Is it the cost and time for qualification, or just plain old market forces?
If it is market forces, please justify why a crusty old curmudgeon
flying beat-up old bangers should make more than a garbage truck driver, when there are probably thousands of tired old L-10 drivers who would love to be paid big bucks to fly seasonally?
Just a thought.
What is "a fair rate of pay" for an airline pilot, lawyer, professional football player, pop music star, F1 driver, bus driver, airline executive, doctor, engineer, soldier?
What justifies the disparities, is it knowledge, skill, hard physical or mental work, risk factors?
Is it the cost and time for qualification, or just plain old market forces?
If it is market forces, please justify why a crusty old curmudgeon
flying beat-up old bangers should make more than a garbage truck driver, when there are probably thousands of tired old L-10 drivers who would love to be paid big bucks to fly seasonally?
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...when there are probably thousands of tired old L-10 drivers who would love to be paid big bucks to fly seasonally?
And anyway, most of the previous L-10 drivers have either, moved on to another aircraft, permanently retired...or checked out, permanently.
So, that leaves the very few still actively flying the old girl to collect the bennies.
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Hi 411.
Although I partly agree with what you say, you are missing a few things in your argument. It's not just pilots that think they are worth more, its generally everyone, and probably including you. However, we have to remember that part of the reason pilot pay has not kept pace with inflation in so many years has nothing to do with "a degredation of required skill" due to technology. The required skill is still there and built over many years. The primary reason is because of the career structure and imposed limitations a pilot must follow, and employers over the last 20 years have taken notice of this as a way to "extract" value from a pilots salary. For example, there is the seniority issue. If a pilot leaves a company, he generally has to start at the bottom of a seniority list again and forgo any time accumulated. So, companies now take advantage of this and keep salaries lower, as they have learned that they can as its unlikely a pilot will want to leave and start over somewhere. Conversely, in other professions, if an employer comes along and says "we're going to cut your salary by 20% because we are in tough times.. so sorry about that"... one can start to shop the market usually not moving very far at all, and move laterally without losing any amount of job status. Secondly, there are other tools used by Airlines as well, such as bonding and others like making pilots pay for the on the job training themselv'es. What I see, all too often is a manager's own arrogance. Many times a pilot will stand up for his value, but a manager would rather let a pilot go and spend the money on retraining a new one which can cost even more. In the end you pay the same, and you end up with more problems. This is an age old battle. This is why, even though its strife with problems, pilot solidarity is the only way to ensure fairness. I would bet this is an area you dispise just because it levels the playing feild for you.
Although I partly agree with what you say, you are missing a few things in your argument. It's not just pilots that think they are worth more, its generally everyone, and probably including you. However, we have to remember that part of the reason pilot pay has not kept pace with inflation in so many years has nothing to do with "a degredation of required skill" due to technology. The required skill is still there and built over many years. The primary reason is because of the career structure and imposed limitations a pilot must follow, and employers over the last 20 years have taken notice of this as a way to "extract" value from a pilots salary. For example, there is the seniority issue. If a pilot leaves a company, he generally has to start at the bottom of a seniority list again and forgo any time accumulated. So, companies now take advantage of this and keep salaries lower, as they have learned that they can as its unlikely a pilot will want to leave and start over somewhere. Conversely, in other professions, if an employer comes along and says "we're going to cut your salary by 20% because we are in tough times.. so sorry about that"... one can start to shop the market usually not moving very far at all, and move laterally without losing any amount of job status. Secondly, there are other tools used by Airlines as well, such as bonding and others like making pilots pay for the on the job training themselv'es. What I see, all too often is a manager's own arrogance. Many times a pilot will stand up for his value, but a manager would rather let a pilot go and spend the money on retraining a new one which can cost even more. In the end you pay the same, and you end up with more problems. This is an age old battle. This is why, even though its strife with problems, pilot solidarity is the only way to ensure fairness. I would bet this is an area you dispise just because it levels the playing feild for you.
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This is why, even though its strife with problems, pilot solidarity is the only way to ensure fairness. I would bet this is an area you dispise just because it levels the playing feild for you.
The fact remains...those on the lower end of the seniority spectrum will get the last job offered....except those that have experienced command and check airman status.
These folks ARE in demand...and always will be...the remainder...second fiddle.
Sorry, no matter how you slice the air crew pie, top dogs
get the majority of the benefits...and salary.
IE: it ain't gonna change, anytime soon.
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Why we need to be paid more?
In this new-world-order, guided by greed as dominant driving force, a total distortion of values has happened. Us, as professional aviators, for a miraid of reasons, are one of the groups worstly hit.
Take this: I have flown my jet in all kinds of ****ty weather, day and night, for 54 hours in the last 7 days. My best friend is a mid-manager in a communication company, working 9-5, 5 days a week. That's 40 hours a week, in an airconditioned office.
His check is fatter then mine.
AND, when celebrating Christmas with his family, he will get his 13th and 14th salary for the year.
And at that time I will be, most likely, somewhere 39000 ft over the ocean, thinking how many more years I will have to take all the responsibility, training, study, and make an effort to keep myself fit and and........ to be able to repay the loans for my (small) house.
Got a clearer picture why we have to be paid better
?!?!
Take this: I have flown my jet in all kinds of ****ty weather, day and night, for 54 hours in the last 7 days. My best friend is a mid-manager in a communication company, working 9-5, 5 days a week. That's 40 hours a week, in an airconditioned office.
His check is fatter then mine.
AND, when celebrating Christmas with his family, he will get his 13th and 14th salary for the year.
And at that time I will be, most likely, somewhere 39000 ft over the ocean, thinking how many more years I will have to take all the responsibility, training, study, and make an effort to keep myself fit and and........ to be able to repay the loans for my (small) house.
Got a clearer picture why we have to be paid better
?!?!
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Originally Posted by NOTSURE
I have flown my jet in all kinds of ****ty weather, day and night, for 54 hours in the last 7 days. My best friend is a mid-manager in a communication company, working 9-5, 5 days a week. That's 40 hours a week, in an airconditioned office.
His check is fatter then mine.
AND, when celebrating Christmas with his family, he will get his 13th and 14th salary for the year.
And at that time I will be, most likely, somewhere 39000 ft over the ocean, thinking how many more years I will have to take all the responsibility, training, study, and make an effort to keep myself fit and and........ to be able to repay the loans for my (small) house.
Got a clearer picture why we have to be paid better ?!?!
His check is fatter then mine.
AND, when celebrating Christmas with his family, he will get his 13th and 14th salary for the year.
And at that time I will be, most likely, somewhere 39000 ft over the ocean, thinking how many more years I will have to take all the responsibility, training, study, and make an effort to keep myself fit and and........ to be able to repay the loans for my (small) house.
Got a clearer picture why we have to be paid better ?!?!
