Easyjet "holding pool"

[Doug the Head]

@ binsleepen'

As an experienced air force multi-engine captain it seems as if I will not be able to get a job in the airline world...

Now, what does that tell you? What is the underlying and unspoken message in your own statement? You could not have chosen a more appropriate username!

Please do everybody a favour, continue dozing off in the air force (leeching off the taxpayers) instead of ruining the T&C's for the rest of us with your selfish behaviour of wanting to stab everybody in the back for 500 hours of jet time.

Good night, sleep tight and don't let the bed bugs bite!

p.s. here's another wake up call for you: 500 hours of jet time will not get you anywhere in today's job market!

[binsleepen]

DtH

I really shouldn't bite but try telling that,

'Please do everybody a favour, continue dozing off in the air force (leeching off the taxpayers)'

to the families of those soldiers and airmen/women killed in Afghanistan and Iraq recently.

I don't need 500 hours jet time but I do need a type rating and some hours on a commercial jet. If I did then there are jobs out there such as with Jet2.

I am not stabbing anyone in the back, I have served my country for 20 years and am now looking for a job in order to look after my family.

Regards

[Reader not a writer]

Doug The Head - RESPECT OUR BOYS FIGHTING FOR US

Doug The Head

I'm Sorry

But please give some respect to fellow pilots, who are being shot at on a daily basis, doing their job for an hourly rate of pay well below most of us enjoy; without being put at risk.

He was asking/posing a question about the best way forward for his family who are probably worried every time he has to fly SAUSAGE SIDE.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Doug the Head - I know you hate easyJet, and trust you will be leaving at your earliest convenience. Your pathetic whining and bleating has finally got too much for me. Your comments to binsleepen are, frankly, shameful and embarrassing. I personally would be delighted for people like him to come in and replace people like you any day of the week. In case you have not noticed, right now countless of our servicemen are fighting and dying for their country - as they have done for generations. The freedom you enjoy to sound off in an ignorant and foolish manner, without fear of someone arriving at your door to take you away, has been won at the cost of countless dead and maimed British servicemen who were also 'leeching off the taxpayer'. To describe people like Binsleepen in such derogatory terms is deeply offensive to numerous people reading this forum - and indeed to a significant percentage of your colleagues at easyJet. Just do the world a favour and resign - go abroad to any country anywhere so you do not have to pay British tax. Leave the country to the millions of ordinary people who actually value the sacrifices made on their behalf.

Binsleepen - despite the shameful words spoken, I would like you to know that many people in our industry feel the injustice of the employment difficulty people like yourself are now experiencing. The only thing I can say is that this is swings and roundabouts and that the airline industry is notoriously fickle. There will be an upturn and times will change. As I am sure you are aware, your chances of getting a direct entry command on a Boeing or an Airbus with a mainstream carrier are slim. Nonetheless, if you can accept that coming out of the military requires a transition process that will include a period of time in the right hand seat then you will be fine. There is much to learn about civil flying compared to the military - take the time to do it with humility and you will be amazed to see how many doors will open. I know the current situation seems discouraging, but it is temporary and will change. Best of luck in the future - I am genuinely sorry that right now easyJet is not a credible option for you. Hopefully Doug will have shoved off soon and that will generate at least one more slot!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Seconded.


WWW

[olster]

NSF -very well put and completely agree with you.

[JW411]

It would be nice to chain him to a lamp post on Wootton Bassett high street for six months!

[Doug the Head]

What ON EARTH has the Iraq/Afghanistan war got ANYTHING to do with 'binsleepen's' attitude of not giving a hoot about the T&C's of a low-cost airline and wanting a type rating against all costs/odds?!?!?

Since when does the Iraq/Afghanistan conflict (or "serving one's country for 20 years") entitle anyone to any job? Quite honestly, I think it's shameful for a few individuals to drag the hundreds of deaths into this debate in order to have a go at me!

Though not in the air force, I've also served my country in the military, but guess what: when I came out of the military I had to fend for myself again! That's what I meant with leeching off the taxpayer: most civil servants (incl military!) have no idea how things work in the real world and are used to thinking the government (or some large organization) owes them everything, including a job, a paycheck and a roof over their heads. Well...welcome to the real world, things just do not work that way in a commercial environment, ask anyone who's in the holding pool...
Second, there are two major things that I learned in the military: 1) it's working as a collective which by the way is also handy in the civil world to get good T&C's and 2) not to stab anyone in the back. For example stabbing senior F/O's in the back by being a DEC, or thinking you have priority over anybody else (including many very experienced 737 or Airbus drivers) in the holding pool because you spent 20 years in the military.

Binsleepen, I don't care where you fly (yet I respect the dangerous missions/environment where our foolish politicians might have sent you, let's not start that debate here...), but I do care about your whole selfish "I-don't-give-a-damn-as-long-as-I-get-my-type-rating-and-my-500-hours-on-type" attitude which is ruining our entire industry! That's the bottom line, not the war in Iraq/Afghanistan!

[brakedwell]

It would be nice to chain him to a lamp post on Wootton Bassett high street for six months!

That would be unfair on lamp posts

[binsleepen]

All

Thankyou all very much for your support.

I am completely content to start life as a F/O. I realise that commercial flying is a totally different environment to the military and that I have an awful lot to learn. (every day is a school day). What I was trying unsuccessfully to put into words was that with any more experience than 200 hours and the ability to get into CTC, with respect to easy jet, you are now over the hill and past it. It doesn't matter whether you have military or civvie experience.

Easy jet is a public company run for the owners/investors and therefore they will take the most cost effective options including crewing. At the moment that means CTC cadets. I realise that, my timing sucks. In the future there will probably be a shortage of cadets as people realise that they can't pay off 70,000 pound loans on 12000 pounds a year. There will then be a shortage of pilots.

Regards

[TheBeak]

To be very fair here, military pilots are not conscripted, they chose to do the job with eyes open to the conditions that they may face, the fact that war is a strong possibility and that they may have their life spent by the country. They also should be aware that they would never be rich and that they are not owed anything more than any other organisation on leaving. They no doubt chose to join with the idea of an exciting job, satisfactory pay and well above average status. As with airline flying the shine soon wears off for them.

They don't deserve an over riding respect in that they aren't made to do this job. Not like the men, women and children of previous wars like WW2. Sure when we are fighting a war that has gone on too long and has been engineered very badly then it makes the loss of our countrymen a disgraceful waste but doon't start the whole 'these people are such wonderful giving people that are being made to risk their lives for us all and for so little gain'. If you don't like it, don't join up. And don't receive the free, paid training.

I do offer my respect to these people. Why? Because they are some of the best aviators out there that have bothered to be selected and get up and do their job very well. They rarely back stab their organisation and they are without fail punctual, precise and respectful. They certainly aren't leeches. We need armed forces in the UK, as does every country. These people are the best, selected people for the job. But they aren't something special for going to wars - it isn't a conscript service.

Quote:
It would be nice to chain him to a lamp post on Wootton Bassett high street for six months!
That would be unfair on lamp posts

What is unfair is that a military pilot is contemplating having to pay for some line experience to fly a civilian airliner when there are little s flying for certain pay to fly airlines that can barely string a sentence together.

[Monarch Man]

Monarch Man - no one would dream of trying tell you that flying an A319 is difficult as they would just be wasting their breath. Nor will they tell you it is best to land with 3 greens as I am sure you know better.

Thats ok NSF, you're welcome, far be it for me to state the bleedin obvious From what I hear, the word "unstable approach" has become more common around the Orange crew room at LGW recently...so glass houses and all that.

As I said (my previous company were JUST as guilty BTW, although thus far almost all the CTC cadets have been offered permanent contracts) Easyjet are just exploiting the desperation and relatively low level skill set required to adequately operate the 319, nothing more nothing less.
Anything else on this subject is just mouth music.

[stansdead]

Doug the Head,

I fail, utterly, to see how anyone who is offered a DEC is stabbing anyone else in the back.

The management are to blame if that's their policy, not the individual DEC. If, after all, he or she is offered the job, then it means by it's very nature that the DEC is qualified for the job. Or do you believe that airlines would rather have unqualified Captains? Perhaps the "stabbed in the back" SFO is not so qualified, or even good enough??? Command is a position EARNED through effort, results, professionalism and perhaps time served. Have you ever thought of that?

Our industry is changing. Seniority and length of service are going to be less important in future. More people will change airlines, but keep seats. The collapse in benefits, pensions etc has seen to that, along with ALL the loco's.

Anyway, I think we should steer clear of calling active Servicemen and Women "leeches". The very idea that you justify your anger at your obvious passing over for Command at some stage by abusing others is, frankly, pretty poor form.

Toodlepip.

[Elephant and Castle]

Without going into the emotional rights and wrongs of war, sacrifice, etc the fundamental premise of Binsleepin original post was a flawed one. The idea that you can put a few hundred hours of low paid work in order to access a golden grail jet command is self-defeating. Your very attitude is the source of tremendous downward pressure on T&C which in effect it means that

A.- when you finally get that command it might not be worth having
B.- if there are any hiccups along the way (redundancy, base closure, new aircraft type introduced) you will find it impossible to jump back up even into a FO job as others also seek to jump the queue by doing your job for nothing.

Binsleepin laments that despite his experience he is at the back of the queue yet he promptly offers to jump such queue by working for nothing (or very little) thus perpetuating the problem.

To anyone familiar with our job it should be quite obvious that we are paid not for what we (drink cofee, bitch about the latest management decision...) do but for what we can do (avoid utter devastation, hundreds of destroyed lives, millions of pounds of losses) and for our ability to constantly put ourselves in a position where we can avoid a demostration of our finer abilities. Flying a A319 in perfect conditions is indeed not too hard. What is hard is maintaining the self discipline to continuosly consider the worst case scenario despite the fact that that scenario hardly ever materialises. What is hard is to constantly be prepared and not fall into the sort of complacency that WC beleives in. For his comments WC seems the sort of chap that turns up to work and flies the aircraft as if he was riding a bicycle. It works while nothing happens but fate is the hunter and lets all pray that a time never comes when he is caught with his pants down. To a large extent companies like Ezy and others are guilty of the same flawed assumptions. This an unfortunate consecuence of being run by beancounters, at least they have the excuse of their ignorance.

If WC's premise where true then no experienced pilot would ever fail a simulator assesment. Sadly this is not the case. We must not confuse luck and good fortune with the required skills to perform the job at hand.

[veetwo]

Worth considering as well is the completely different environment in which we now operate. We now do 5 day weeks of earlies, including long multi-sector days. Good thing we have high levels of automation on modern jets otherwise modern operations would be downright unsafe! Fatigue is a big enough problem as it is without having to hand fly everything just to sooth my unimaginable ego.

As others have commented, it is ridiculous to suggest that flying is "easy". Following a set of flight directors is easy. Flying an automatic approach on to an ILS on a nice day is easy. It is our airmanship, training, knowledge, cognitive thinking ability and risk management that we are paid for. These are skills which are not unique to any particular aircraft type.

V2

[Brain Potter]

Doug the Head,

Binsleepen seemed to be merely pointing out the Catch-22 that he has too much experience to be considered for the only method of getting into the RHS and does not have the type-rating to be considered for a DEC. His options are consequently limited and he may well have to pay for a type-rating and be prepared to work for low pay in order to improve his prospects.

I find it quite wrong that you are accusing anyone who considers taking a DEC position as 'stabbing senior FOs in the back'. Why should an unemployed pilot have a an obligation to worry about someone else's career prospects? That responsibility lays firmly at the feet of the company's existing pilot workforce and company council. The rise of the lo-co in the 1990's undermined the business of the legacy airlines and affected the job security, prospects and conditions of their existing pilots. Was that a concern of yours when you decided to work for a lo-co? Of course not; you have no obligation those guys just as the potential DEC has no obligation to you. If a company chooses to hire DECs rather than promote from within, it is a tacit statement that their own FOs are not experienced enough or the company does not want to bear the cost/risk of upgrading them.

It is up to the pilots within a company to protect the terms and conditions of the workforce, including those of the the new-joiners. If there are promotable SFOs and the existing workforce is not willing to say no to the company hiring DECs, then you can hardly expect people external to the company to show any greater concern. The irony is that you accuse binsleepen of thinking he has a right to a job, when your attitude toward command seems to be cut from the same cloth.

[Caudillo]

Doug, I really do like your posts a great deal. I think you talk a lot of sense, however I think you're undermining your credibility on this one.

I've got no particular feelings towards the military one way or another. Many of your colleagues, and many here do. Many have an emotional attachment for past personal reasons. For one, it's going to be very difficult to sell a negative attitude, especially about a pilot on a pilot forum.

Secondly, how you can talk of a job such as an air force (or navy, or army) pilot in such terms is beyond me. It's hardly a made-up non-job is it? A military pilot is a perfectly respectable, perfectly common and perfectly reasonable post to hold. If he were the some council consultant trousering 100k for a 3 day week teaching communication to binmen then fine, but really, a pilot?

There are those that would argue they're defending our country right now - I wouldn't, but that's by the by. Is an airport fireman at Southampton a sponger, because let's face it, he's not going to be putting out many burning wrecks this week? No, and neither is our friend here. He doesn't have to be in the Battle of Britain to prove or justify his use in society. His occupation has a touch more heritage and permanence than those who are low-cost airline pilots.

Lastly I think calling him a backstabber is wide of the mark. Him, or anybody else from the forces who takes a DEC position. They're not in BALPA, they're not in the company, they're not even in the airline industry yet. How is an individual meant to negotiate which company has sufficient FOs for upgrade but it trying to stitch up the crew, and which has a genuine need of captains now? Even if they could, why should they? They're on the outside and don't owe us a thin dime.

£1000/month, no sector pay, 6 months. Sound good? That's what those on the inside have achieved. Inaction, chips on shoulders, laziness and misguided class-warfare on our part that has allowed cadets to be exploited like this - there's your treachery, not some pilot looking to take his skills into the commercial market. This is worse than backstabbing, this is outright stupidity because we will reap what we sow, we're not immune to this race to the bottom by virtue of where we are now and it will bite us sooner or later. That is why this "profession" is going to the dogs. I don't want it anymore, Binsleepen is welcome to it, and I sincerely wish him good luck. Why one would lament missing out on some mangled part time/full time/less-money/base tranfer to the arse end of nowhere or 1000 miles from your home/leave deleted/oh look you're an FO again for a bit command is beyond me anyway.

[JW411]

The thing that really got my goat was the statement; "leeching off the taxpayers".

This odious person has now told us that he also comes from a military background (the details of which are yet to be disclosed).

By his own standards then we must assume that he is also guilty of "leeching off the taxpayers".

[Doug the Head]

A couple of points regarding DEC's, experience and the military.

First of all, in today's market there should be absolutely no need for any DEC's. Upgrading has come to a virtual standstill (if compared with the situation of two years ago) and expansion has severely been scaled back. There should be enough experienced FO's to make the cut to the left seat.

Now this emotional military debate. As some of you might have guessed, I'm generally no big fan of big government or civil servants. Contrary (!) to Binsleepen, I had no choice to do my conscript military service many years ago and what I saw was a very bureaucratic, wasteful organization, which is unlike a commercial company, totally dependent (leeching off...) the taxpayers. Now I do admit that every nation needs to have some kind of military (I'm no naive pacifist) and it needs to get financed through the taxpayers, but my point is that nobody should think that he/she is entitled to a job in the civil world just because he/she has spent any time in the military. This is typical behaviour of civil servants (from paper clip counters to soldiers) who are used to follow order and in return have their whole existence financed by a government with deep pockets and think that everybody owes them everything.

There are a lot of excellent and dedicated pilots in this world with a wealth of experience, doing very brave things under very difficult circumstances, from bush flying in Africa, to flying turbo props @ 15-20000' through bad weather/icing and still others who have accumulated thousands of flying hours and excellent experience in the RHS of an low-cost 737/A319. On top of that there are probably lot's of unemployed 737/A320 family drivers in the holding pool who would love to get a job, or some very talented cadets. And yes, there are also excellent military pilots looking for a job. What are we gonna do? Entitle all of them to a job? Are they also owed a job? It simply doesn't work that way I'm afraid.

All of the above probably deserve a shot at a LHS of a 737/A319, or at least a chance of a job interview for a RHS, so what really p!sses me off is some arrogant prat who things that; A) he/she is better that everyone else just because they have flown in the military, B) thinks that they can jump the queue and C) doesn't give a hoot about ruining T&C's in the process, as long as he gets a job and a type rating. Then there are even some that have the nerve of dragging the whole Iraq/Afghanistan conflict (with all it's resultant deaths and destruction) and patriotism into the debate...

[JW411]

On the other hand, you could simply apologise for your ill-considered outburst but I don't suppose the word apologise is even present in your vocabulary.

In the meantime, just keep on digging.