Astraeus A320 Contracts
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Roy Hudd,
I am an A320 Captain. I have enough experience thanks.
For you oldies to be sitting in Ivory Towers gloating at the lower terms and conditions being offered to others is just plain sad.
I agree it's not my decision when you should retire. But, what a waste of a perk others will never see again.
You're a long time dead, so it would be wise to enjoy your dotage.
But maybe your third wife thinks you are tiresome too, is that why you still work?
I am an A320 Captain. I have enough experience thanks.
For you oldies to be sitting in Ivory Towers gloating at the lower terms and conditions being offered to others is just plain sad.
I agree it's not my decision when you should retire. But, what a waste of a perk others will never see again.
You're a long time dead, so it would be wise to enjoy your dotage.
But maybe your third wife thinks you are tiresome too, is that why you still work?
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: over the hill
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is an economic crisis like no other in the last 70 years. UK is perhaps the worst prepared "developed" economy to meet it. Likely we will see a desperate second leg of the downturn next year for reasons well documented elsewhere. We are really up the creek, with the prospect of a sterling crisis looming ever larger. One failed gilt auction will be all it takes to see the UK shown for the basket case it is. In a market like this, it pains me to say it, any job is a job. Frankly, I dont know why airlines are not ripping up pilot contracts and saying £25k for an FO, £40K for a captain and that's it. I suspect that next year, they will or its a collapse all round as demand evaporates in the face of persistent, deep-rooted, long term unemployment, a need to pay for oil in a third world currency as the pound sinks further, and as various taxes both overt and covert whoever wins the election sap what disposable income there is. We face a national debt on a par with that at the end of WW2, scaled up to todays money, and bugger-all economic growth to pay it back with. UK is going back to the 70's at a searing pace. The next ten years will be absolutely brutal. In my opinion, we all know who we have to thank for that.
APD is a disgrace too, in as much as the rest of Europe does not pay it so we are further hobbling an already crippled UK market for airline travel.
As to our profession, well I had a great time but its finished, really finished. I derive no joy from saying that. A friend of mine told me about a dinner he went to where there was an advisor in economics to the "brightly coloured" airline board, (a social accident - he did not know him before or fix it up, his friends he went with did). He told me that this guy was fascinating. His contempt for pilots knew no bounds and he expounded gleefully on the summer-only contracts he forsaw and the increasing contractorisation of piloting overall, where contractors bid for the work the brand generated and the lowest cost base won. He looked whistfully at Eastern Europe as a great source of cheap pilots and said supply easily exceeded demand for the forseeable future. His view was that flying an airliner was a slightly more sophisticated train driver style job and said, bluntly, that some train drivers now earned more than pilots, which was as it should be in his view, especially for FO's who he viewed as a legal requirement but otherwise woefully overpaid for their contribution. This, he predicted would change rapidly and so, it seems, is the case at the brightly coloured airline, as elsewhere.
He admitted, apparently, that airlines were a pretty cosy club through the various trade bodies they belong to and that they all got together to discuss areas of mutual interest like overhead - particularly staff costs. The oil price makes an airline a price taker but salaries are where they can be a price maker, he said, and that they were all determined to drive the status and salaries of piloting through the floor. It was, he felt, a ridiclous "career" to enter as the specialisation was so narrow and the industry itself so vulnerable to external shocks that it was virtually to condemn oneself to a job where opportunities were increasingly limited and salaries shrinking in real terms every year and with little chance to move outside it at a corporate level unless to manage within it, where the focus would inevitably be on who could deliver the cheapest cost base given the total commoditisation of the industry product. That meant being the best at screwing down the earnings of your own peer group. He felt that this was all fair game and that the market was so easy to rig against pilots come any sign of a downturn in the economy that becoming one was the height of folly, but that, never-the-less, plenty of people kept applying so there was little need to adjust the career to attract the best, they would take what they got. Safety cut little ice because, as he put it, "you lot all want to get home to your families at the end of your overpaid day, so the passengers will be fine too."
Personally, I would have wanted to either walk out or punch him on the nose, but my mate stayed, gripped by the depth of the exposition this economics expert who sat on many other boards of other industries as well went on to over the course of their evening.
Much of what he apparently said has come to pass - Brookfield contract pilots dominate the new entries to R*an A*r, and the FO's at the brightly coloured airline are getting ever more put upon. The economy refuses to re-ignite in the UK in a meaningful way and the clouds are looming.
It seems to me that people need to have back-up plan in this industry, both in terms of what to do if their airline or career come to a halt, and indeed of where to live if the UK becomes as gritty as it is destined to without the utmost care and skill from its economic managers in the next decade. (See much chance of that? Me neither!).
Astreus are somehow providing growth in an economy that is still shrinking. I suspect, although I hate to say it, that their offer will seem quite generous in the years to come.
APD is a disgrace too, in as much as the rest of Europe does not pay it so we are further hobbling an already crippled UK market for airline travel.
As to our profession, well I had a great time but its finished, really finished. I derive no joy from saying that. A friend of mine told me about a dinner he went to where there was an advisor in economics to the "brightly coloured" airline board, (a social accident - he did not know him before or fix it up, his friends he went with did). He told me that this guy was fascinating. His contempt for pilots knew no bounds and he expounded gleefully on the summer-only contracts he forsaw and the increasing contractorisation of piloting overall, where contractors bid for the work the brand generated and the lowest cost base won. He looked whistfully at Eastern Europe as a great source of cheap pilots and said supply easily exceeded demand for the forseeable future. His view was that flying an airliner was a slightly more sophisticated train driver style job and said, bluntly, that some train drivers now earned more than pilots, which was as it should be in his view, especially for FO's who he viewed as a legal requirement but otherwise woefully overpaid for their contribution. This, he predicted would change rapidly and so, it seems, is the case at the brightly coloured airline, as elsewhere.
He admitted, apparently, that airlines were a pretty cosy club through the various trade bodies they belong to and that they all got together to discuss areas of mutual interest like overhead - particularly staff costs. The oil price makes an airline a price taker but salaries are where they can be a price maker, he said, and that they were all determined to drive the status and salaries of piloting through the floor. It was, he felt, a ridiclous "career" to enter as the specialisation was so narrow and the industry itself so vulnerable to external shocks that it was virtually to condemn oneself to a job where opportunities were increasingly limited and salaries shrinking in real terms every year and with little chance to move outside it at a corporate level unless to manage within it, where the focus would inevitably be on who could deliver the cheapest cost base given the total commoditisation of the industry product. That meant being the best at screwing down the earnings of your own peer group. He felt that this was all fair game and that the market was so easy to rig against pilots come any sign of a downturn in the economy that becoming one was the height of folly, but that, never-the-less, plenty of people kept applying so there was little need to adjust the career to attract the best, they would take what they got. Safety cut little ice because, as he put it, "you lot all want to get home to your families at the end of your overpaid day, so the passengers will be fine too."
Personally, I would have wanted to either walk out or punch him on the nose, but my mate stayed, gripped by the depth of the exposition this economics expert who sat on many other boards of other industries as well went on to over the course of their evening.
Much of what he apparently said has come to pass - Brookfield contract pilots dominate the new entries to R*an A*r, and the FO's at the brightly coloured airline are getting ever more put upon. The economy refuses to re-ignite in the UK in a meaningful way and the clouds are looming.
It seems to me that people need to have back-up plan in this industry, both in terms of what to do if their airline or career come to a halt, and indeed of where to live if the UK becomes as gritty as it is destined to without the utmost care and skill from its economic managers in the next decade. (See much chance of that? Me neither!).
Astreus are somehow providing growth in an economy that is still shrinking. I suspect, although I hate to say it, that their offer will seem quite generous in the years to come.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not UK
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Short, thank you for a powerful, if rather depressing, contribution. As someone who has spent nearly 40 years in the profession, and set to do a few more yet! I hate to think badly of it.
I`ve seen the pendulum swing, been made redundant several times, trained bright young cadets and retired `flag carrier Capts`. I`ve been paid bucket loads and pittances, but overall I wouldnt trade it for anything. I have worked with some really great people, done some really great things and had a lt of fun. The profession is hugely different now than when I started. The captains I first flew with were survivors of the Battle of Britain and the Bombing raids. What differneces did they see in their span?
Most of us get reasonably well paid, are generally treated with respect, and enjoy it. Thats not a bad place to start.
There is a layer of people in certain companies who have, and aspire to continue, to enjoy pay and benefits that were never ever relevant to the real world. Generally speaking they worked hard to protect their seniority and the benefits they `earned`. If those below didnt do so well, then tough shxt! They will see changes!
At the end of the day, go into it with your eyes open, blame noone for your own choices, and give it your best shot. Be safe...................and enjoy!!!
I`ve seen the pendulum swing, been made redundant several times, trained bright young cadets and retired `flag carrier Capts`. I`ve been paid bucket loads and pittances, but overall I wouldnt trade it for anything. I have worked with some really great people, done some really great things and had a lt of fun. The profession is hugely different now than when I started. The captains I first flew with were survivors of the Battle of Britain and the Bombing raids. What differneces did they see in their span?
Most of us get reasonably well paid, are generally treated with respect, and enjoy it. Thats not a bad place to start.
There is a layer of people in certain companies who have, and aspire to continue, to enjoy pay and benefits that were never ever relevant to the real world. Generally speaking they worked hard to protect their seniority and the benefits they `earned`. If those below didnt do so well, then tough shxt! They will see changes!
At the end of the day, go into it with your eyes open, blame noone for your own choices, and give it your best shot. Be safe...................and enjoy!!!
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UIP : 4° 10’ 0” W, 47° 58’ 0” N
Posts: 341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyone know anything about Aer Lingus crew (pilots and cabin crew) based in the UK (BFS and LGW) training on the Astraeus AOC and SOP's in the next few weeks? Has Aer Lingus bought Astraeus?
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aer Lingus buy Astraeus?..................
.......Not sure if they have enough cash to buy a bag of crisps in the terminal, let alone another airline........
What a shambles our industry is.
.......Not sure if they have enough cash to buy a bag of crisps in the terminal, let alone another airline........
What a shambles our industry is.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rainboe,
You are probably not bothered about the money because you are an APS retiree. You don't NEED to be worried!!!
That's the point.
Can't you see how it looks? Expecting others to be grateful for lower terms and conditions in an airline that you are working for at this moment whilst in receipt of pension.
Have you told the wonderful Hamrah that you are happy to have your pay reduced to meet the "market conditions"?
Anyway, where should I leave the bowl of Cream for my favourite fat cat?
You are probably not bothered about the money because you are an APS retiree. You don't NEED to be worried!!!
That's the point.
Can't you see how it looks? Expecting others to be grateful for lower terms and conditions in an airline that you are working for at this moment whilst in receipt of pension.
Have you told the wonderful Hamrah that you are happy to have your pay reduced to meet the "market conditions"?
Anyway, where should I leave the bowl of Cream for my favourite fat cat?
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UIP : 4° 10’ 0” W, 47° 58’ 0” N
Posts: 341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The reason I'm asking is that crews from both LGW and BFS have been told they are going to be trained up on the Astraeus SOP's in the next few weeks. so maybe EI haven't bought Astraeus but what's goin on? Anyone know?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Rainboe,
"baking in the sun,bored out my mind" well the first half of that applies to alot of our nightstops, I'm never bored though and as FNA comes into the sunny season it'll be great (they have now imported some cider)
I don't expect to get £150k a year and I don't care as I can easily live on what I get,and I would certainly trade a few bob for the variety of flying we do :shorthaul, medium haul, scheduled, charter you name it.
I certainly would not trade it for a loco lifestyle where you are burnt out in a few years or bored to death,
Right, when does my airbus training start ?
"baking in the sun,bored out my mind" well the first half of that applies to alot of our nightstops, I'm never bored though and as FNA comes into the sunny season it'll be great (they have now imported some cider
)I don't expect to get £150k a year and I don't care as I can easily live on what I get,and I would certainly trade a few bob for the variety of flying we do :shorthaul, medium haul, scheduled, charter you name it.
I certainly would not trade it for a loco lifestyle where you are burnt out in a few years or bored to death,
Right, when does my airbus training start ?
I Have Control
Join Date: May 2004
Location: North-West England
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clarification
Stansdead,
What are you on about?. I have had one wife, have lost 2 airline jobs due to collapse of company and the greedy gay guy from Donington Hall, and have no pension of any merit to look forward to.
I work both to pay the bills and my kids' uni education, and also because I still enjoy flying.
Apologies for insinuating you didn't fly for a living. I was wrong there.
No further insults to be traded.
What are you on about?. I have had one wife, have lost 2 airline jobs due to collapse of company and the greedy gay guy from Donington Hall, and have no pension of any merit to look forward to.
I work both to pay the bills and my kids' uni education, and also because I still enjoy flying.
Apologies for insinuating you didn't fly for a living. I was wrong there.
No further insults to be traded.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by stans
I thought Iceland had less money than Ireland?
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A friend of mine told me about a dinner he went to where there was an advisor in economics to the "brightly coloured" airline board, (a social accident - he did not know him before or fix it up, his friends he went with did). He told me that this guy was fascinating. His contempt for pilots knew no bounds and he expounded gleefully on the summer-only contracts he forsaw and the increasing contractorisation of piloting overall, where contractors bid for the work the brand generated and the lowest cost base won. He looked whistfully at Eastern Europe as a great source of cheap pilots and said supply easily exceeded demand for the forseeable future. His view was that flying an airliner was a slightly more sophisticated train driver style job and said, bluntly, that some train drivers now earned more than pilots, which was as it should be in his view, especially for FO's who he viewed as a legal requirement but otherwise woefully overpaid for their contribution. This, he predicted would change rapidly and so, it seems, is the case at the brightly coloured airline, as elsewhere.
He admitted, apparently, that airlines were a pretty cosy club through the various trade bodies they belong to and that they all got together to discuss areas of mutual interest like overhead - particularly staff costs. The oil price makes an airline a price taker but salaries are where they can be a price maker, he said, and that they were all determined to drive the status and salaries of piloting through the floor. It was, he felt, a ridiclous "career" to enter as the specialisation was so narrow and the industry itself so vulnerable to external shocks that it was virtually to condemn oneself to a job where opportunities were increasingly limited and salaries shrinking in real terms every year and with little chance to move outside it at a corporate level unless to manage within it, where the focus would inevitably be on who could deliver the cheapest cost base given the total commoditisation of the industry product. That meant being the best at screwing down the earnings of your own peer group. He felt that this was all fair game and that the market was so easy to rig against pilots come any sign of a downturn in the economy that becoming one was the height of folly, but that, never-the-less, plenty of people kept applying so there was little need to adjust the career to attract the best, they would take what they got. Safety cut little ice because, as he put it, "you lot all want to get home to your families at the end of your overpaid day, so the passengers will be fine too."
He admitted, apparently, that airlines were a pretty cosy club through the various trade bodies they belong to and that they all got together to discuss areas of mutual interest like overhead - particularly staff costs. The oil price makes an airline a price taker but salaries are where they can be a price maker, he said, and that they were all determined to drive the status and salaries of piloting through the floor. It was, he felt, a ridiclous "career" to enter as the specialisation was so narrow and the industry itself so vulnerable to external shocks that it was virtually to condemn oneself to a job where opportunities were increasingly limited and salaries shrinking in real terms every year and with little chance to move outside it at a corporate level unless to manage within it, where the focus would inevitably be on who could deliver the cheapest cost base given the total commoditisation of the industry product. That meant being the best at screwing down the earnings of your own peer group. He felt that this was all fair game and that the market was so easy to rig against pilots come any sign of a downturn in the economy that becoming one was the height of folly, but that, never-the-less, plenty of people kept applying so there was little need to adjust the career to attract the best, they would take what they got. Safety cut little ice because, as he put it, "you lot all want to get home to your families at the end of your overpaid day, so the passengers will be fine too."
One nicely timed strike and said adviser would be looking for a new career too!
D and F
Last edited by Deep and fast; 12th Oct 2009 at 14:29.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For some clarity on the whole will they/won't they get another airbus issue - I think the point is being missed. The company have not recruited pilots to only fly the Airbus wholly owned by themselves. In fact, that is only a side issue.
The intention is that the entire Shamrock operation from Gatwick will now be crewed by AEU crew. This will consist of those recruited directly for the purpose and those working for Shamrock already. Therefore the extent of recent recruitment has been to crew all current and immediate future Shamrock Airbus' based at LGW.
The Airbus on AEU books is joining the ad hoc fleet. Whether this aircraft will also join in on the Shamrock operation remains to be seen.
The intention is that the entire Shamrock operation from Gatwick will now be crewed by AEU crew. This will consist of those recruited directly for the purpose and those working for Shamrock already. Therefore the extent of recent recruitment has been to crew all current and immediate future Shamrock Airbus' based at LGW.
The Airbus on AEU books is joining the ad hoc fleet. Whether this aircraft will also join in on the Shamrock operation remains to be seen.