RYANAIR thoughts

[Desk-pilot]

Appalling management

I am continually appalled by the dreadful management policies at Ryanair, and in my view this continual abuse of management power is precisely why you need BALPA. Lets be realistic - if Ryanair do decide to close Luton Flybe, Easy and a raft of other airlines will be utterly delighted to expand into the void O'Leary leaves and you will all get jobs with airlines that believe in union recognition and don't believe in intimidating their workforce.

Much as O'Leary likes to think he is master of the universe I'm afraid even he can't buck the market. Millions of people want to fly out of Luton, dozens of airlines want to carry them. My other piece of advice is to hold simultanous ballots across all Ryanair bases - that way even if only half of the bases vote for union recognition he can't close half the bases can he? Well not if he wants to remain CEO for very long!

Fact is at last you have management on the run and that's why theiy're making their ridiculous threats. As an earlier poster remarked the only way to fight a bully is to stand up to them collectively.

Incidentally, I find it astonishing that O'Leary manages to sleep at night with this on his conscience. He's in a position to go to his deathbed having done some good in his life or having spent his life doing others harm. If the man had a shred of human decency he'd choose the former course.

Desk-pilot

[Aldente]

Just had the latest BALPA newsletter drop through my letterbox.

It asks the following question :-

"The campaign only asks for dignity and respect - why is Ryanair putting a cost on or a penalty for treating its employees better?"

Perhaps one of the "union bashers" on this forum might like to give us a reply?

[The Real Slim Shady]

We don't need BALPA for dignity and respect that's for certain!

If that is all they can come up with as the proposed benefits is it surprising we don't want anything to do with them.

Vote for the ultimate pig in a poke. Vote BALPA and lose your job.

Let's see if BALPA and the pro - union activists dig into their pockets to pay salaaries if the base is closed.

Maybe BALPA head office could go on the Atkins Diet and cut down on the £80K they spend on lunches(page 9): that would cover 1 Capt or 2 FOs or 4 CC.

Then they could cut down on their travel and expenses bill to pay for a few more, and the General Secretary could sacrifice 50% of his hard earned £138K package to fund more.

[The Real Slim Shady]

And just to reinforce how tough things are in the marketplace another 40 pilots in Belgium are out of work.

[BongleBear]

Please answer

Guys I'm banging my head against a brick wall here.

I keep asking for one thing. Please answer it.

How are BALPA going to help our conditions? How are they going to make management listen and act when they don't have to?

I don't care if you think I'm a manager, I still want the answer so PM me if you'd prefer.

I would love to work for an airline that has a union that works, but from what I understand that would require a management setup that listens. We don't have that, so aren't we trying to tackle this from the wrong angle?

As a workforce we have often been likened to a group of sheep on this forum, so if it helps you understand how it feels at the moment - it's like having a useless shepherd and everyone suggesting changing the sheepdog.

So please, please, please tell me how BALPA are going to change things. I ask that of those like grim repa, aldente and others on this thread alone who are criticising my views and opinions, but not offering suggestions of their own.

Finally, to reply to Desk-Pilot:

Lets be realistic - if Ryanair do decide to close Luton Flybe, Easy and a raft of other airlines will be utterly delighted to expand into the void O'Leary leaves and you will all get jobs with airlines that believe in union recognition and don't believe in intimidating their workforce.

Realistic? I'd call that incredibly naive. Surely you don't think MOL will leave Luton and scrap those routes? Ryanair will simply take on more cadets and eastern European captains based elsewhere in Europe and fly into Luton, and where necessary fly a 'W' leg to cover those routes.

This comment will probably see me called selfish, however I am not a WWII hero (to continue a previous analogy), but I am not prepared to lose either my life in England to be based in Europe somewhere for the cause - especially when there is NO ANSWERS BEING GIVEN TO ME EXPLAINING HOW MY SACRIFICE WILL CHANGE A THING IN RYANAIR!

[CommandB]

Grim Repa - i am certainly not a management stooge that i can assure you.

If you vote Balpa and I loose my job, I take it I can count on you / Balpa / other "pro-union" pilots to pay my salary, mortage, other expenses??

As such an avid supporter of Balpa - tell me - if you lost your job would you still be??? Ive noticed no-one has actually answered this question on here yet.

You have been moaning about the state of Ryanair since October 2004 (based on your profile) in 5 years if you dislike the company so much WHY HAVN'T YOU LEFT???

Even just over a year ago there were ample jobs all over the world not just Europe.
Why, if FR is so bad, have you continued to stay??

Id appreciate an answer to these questions.

I look forward to hearing your excuses....

[CommandB]

Aldente ""The campaign only asks for dignity and respect - why is Ryanair putting a cost on or a penalty for treating its employees better?""

The question is why does Balpa charge you for dignity and respect?

[G-AWZK]

I can't believe that people are being threatened with the sack for wanting union recognition.

Let this happen and the workforce will be wide open for anything that management decide to do. This is not about BALPA recognition anymore - it much much more important than that.

If you can't see that - you really will get all you deserve, and it will probably be a P45; BALPA recognition or not.

There surely is a law that prevents employers threatening staff with the sack for something as fundamental as union recognition??

[ROSCO328]

You lot are your own worst enemy

[the grim repa]

real slim shady - taking up the mantle and showing his true management colours now in place of LHC,who it seems these days is incapable of coherent or latin post,but favours posts anti - anyone who might offend his pin up "mick the mad mullah from mullingar".
In true ryanair style slim "pickings" plucks spurious figures from the air,adds 2 and 2 together getting 3 and tries to use them in his union busting idiotic posts.
also in true management union busting style he lists off job losses and tries pathetically to equate them with balpas fight for dignity and respect,being a possible cause for ryanair managements continued threats and intimidation about closing bases and firing pilots for exercising their human rights to association,representation and protection in the workplace.
slim don't try and brow beat us with your pathetic attempts to be the union buster trainee.you should know that dignity and respect,if you had any would show tyou that pilots are intelligent and can see through your tactics management have brainwashed into you.

school report:slim tries hard but seems to be distracted by the class bully.they are quickly becoming friends though.slim despite being a nice little boy would do well to use his own iniative any not rely on others to do his thinking for him.in mathematics he progresses well and is quick to answer,but most of the time with the incorrect answer.with time he will get the confidence to be his own person and remember that others in the class who have their hands up when asked a question,can think for themselves also.must try harder.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Grim

You can be as personally rude or abusive or sarcastic as you wish towards me, Leo or any other FR pilot who disagrees with this pointless, mis-guided and ill-timed recognition campaign.

What you and your acolytes plainly cannot do is to answer the simple questions put to you, and BALPA, by bonglebear, CommandB, myself and others.

Now stop being obtuse, muddying the waters with smug personal attacks and simply answer the question Bongle asked!!

Guys I'm banging my head against a brick wall here.

I keep asking for one thing. Please answer it.

How are BALPA going to help our conditions? How are they going to make management listen and act when they don't have to?

[the grim repa]

commandb - why should i run away?because i am pro union,pro pilot and pro career.you will be gone long before i will buddy.You just don't get it YET,we are balpa,balpa is us.Union recognition is the first step to a career in aviation,with out it you are a part time seasonal worker with very little rights and no protection.

[BongleBear]

Really pissing me off now...

Grim Repa and other colleagues....

Stop slagging each other off and answer one simple question. I can't tell you how annoying this is.

HOW ARE BALPA GOING TO MAKE THINGS BETTER AT RYANAIR WHEN MOL DOESN'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING BALPA ASK?

Please just answer the question. I know you think your responses are really witty and amusing but they aren't making me vote yes and I believe that is your real goal here.

This is the last time I'm going to make this request, then I'm going to give it an hour and if there is still no answer (and no reply to my PM) then I'm sending Capt. L***** an email that says NO.

[G-AWZK]

Found something on union recognition on a UK government website (Statutory union recognition | Business Link)

From 6 April 2005, new legislation will change the process of statutory trade union recognition. If you employ 21 or more workers a union may ask you for recognition. If you agree to this, the statutory recognition process is completed.

If you ignore or refuse the request the union may apply to the Central Arbitration Committee (CAC) for recognition for all or part of your workforce. CAC will accept the application if:

at least 10 per cent of the workers are union members
the majority of the workers are likely to favour union recognition
The CAC will then decide whether to automatically recognise the union or hold a ballot. If a ballot is called:

you will need to co-operate with the CAC in arranging the ballot
you must let the union have reasonable access to your workers, and allow the workers to go to union meetings
you should not attend the meetings or try and find out what happened at them
you must not intimidate or unduly influence your workers during the balloting process
the costs of the ballot will be shared by you and the union
If a majority supports recognition and makes up at least 40 per cent of the balloted workforce, you must recognise the union.

You can also apply for derecognition of a union using the same system if:

you have employed fewer than 21 workers over any 13 week period
three years have passed since CAC awarded recognition to the union
you have not already made an application in the last three years

I have put a section in bold to highlight it; you must not intimidate or unduly influence your workers during the balloting process

Surely threatening base closure and job losses is covered by this legislation?
If all you guys who are so against union recognition don't yet understand, if you roll over and allow the airline management to get away with something as fundamental as this - you will not be safe. It isn't about BALPA, this is about your long term job security. Try thinking a little further than this.

Consider the Southwest Airlines model that Ryanair professes to copy - Southwest have the highest level of union membership among aircrew, and the lowest level of staff turnover and some of the best T&Cs in the US. Is this maybe something to consider?

[The Real Slim Shady]

you must not intimidate or unduly influence your workers during the balloting process

That's rich bearing in mind the threats my partner has just received from BALPA members!

[Day_Dreamer]

TO THE BALPA SUPPORTERS.

Answer the question "What will BALPA do for the RYR and Brookfield pilots when they get in"

What will BALPA do for the unemployed of LTN, BRS, LPL, EDI when their bases are closed after a yes vote ?
What they did for me in '79 cheque for £200 to help with initial expenses and their best wishes for a speedy return to work. (So they can recoup the £200 through membership dues)

Are you so blind that you cant see that there will be job losses if any bases votes in BALPA. These are not idle threats I am sure.
DO YOU want to see yourselves as the sole reason for many good men and women losing everything they have to support YOUR EGO.

Why dont you see that this is NO BLUFF.

I do not work for RYR or any associated company.
After 37+ years in this industry I have seen it all from Laker Airways who was one of the best employers in the Industry to the demise of Dan Air Services when BALPA sold out the majority of it members after BA bought them for £1.

The financial statements made on here about BALPA are fact, the monies come from the 1% subscriptions, and the Legal cover comment is true, only if they think they can win on your behalf.

BALPA will only work if its a two way street, clearly in RYR this will never happen.

Stop this attitude that BALPA will save jobs and improve conditions.
You Idiots are heading down the road of self destruction, straight to the unemployment line.

Do you want that for yourself and your colleagues, if BALPA recognition costs 1 job let alone a complete base the price is too high.

[Bruce Wayne]

B W.

When confronted with choices, possibly life or death decisions, as a Pilot.

First define what the Problem is that requires an action. Then you gather as much Information as possible. Then identify your Options. Once you have all your options, you then need to Select one. And then you Execute the option you selected. Most important you need to Evaluate your selected option and continue the process if necessary.

With me so far......

So the problem that exits in Ryanair.

Problem - Constant degradation in terms and conditions.

Information - Personal experience from being here for so long.

Options - Keep head down and take it up the ***.
Get together with fellow employees and push for Union Rec. or as you suggest Start own Airline.

After That you'll prob want me to buy the loss making airline next door also......

Good job you management types don't have to do 6 month sim checks etc.

1. Your analysis is wrong.
2.(a) If you don't like your T&C's then LEAVE for another operator (you wont because the chances of another operator hiring right now is less than minimal).
(b)T&C's are going down. YES! it is endemic and it is across the board as airlines are fighting for survival right now, see point 2(a). Because of FR's posted figures for last financial year doesn't mean that it is not STILL facing an unstable industry and an unstable economy. Major carriers are still laying off crews, see point 2(a)
3. You have no idea as to my background.
4. Was last in the sim in March thanks. see point 3.


It really doesn't matter what is said to you, you have your perception and cannot appreciate the wider picture and that is fine. You are welcome to your views and opinions and to be honest i will not lose once iota of sleep over it.

You fail to understand the point that yes, while i agree with better T&C's in the industry as it provides operators with a stable crew platform it also leads to a lower attrition rate which provides economic advantages to a carrier.

IE. if you are in an ideal world and have a crew base of 200 pilots that are happy and never going to leave what are your recruiting, indoc, initial costs ? As low as they are ever going to be !

We do not live in utopia, its the real world. Some crew, no matter what they get, will always be unhappy.

There has to be a compromise, seeking union representation in probably the worst down turn in 50 years, maybe longer, is not going to benefit anyone apart from the union.

Do you really think the Union gives a stuff about *you*? Do you honestly think that any specific person is going to be awake at night worried about your future, your career, your mortgage, the shoes on your kid's feet, your expiring currency ? your prospects of getting an alternative left/right seat (or F/E seat) position.

No. Its a job, they get paid not matter if you do or do not. It is a business, like an airline is a business.

They have the potential of what, 2,000 additional subs? You think that is not a factor of interest ?

There is a dearth of crews available right now, from guys with time on type, line experience, to those looking at getting out of hold pools, to those looking for a first right seat jet job.

What do you have to gamble with ? your jobs ?

What is the worst case scenario, for you, MOL/LHC shuts bases, sh*t cans the lot of you and shoves everyone onto contractor terms?

Like i said, you have to evaluate the situation and that accounts for considering the worst case scenario. Is now the right time to be pushing for more ?

And sorry, but the B/S of BALPA's Dignty and Respect !!

dignity
• noun (pl. dignities) 1 the state or quality of being worthy of respect. 2 a composed or serious manner. 3 a sense of pride in oneself.
respect
• noun 1 a feeling of admiration for someone because of their qualities or achievements. 2 due regard for the feelings or rights of others. 3 (respects) polite greetings. 4 a particular aspect, point, or detail.

They are subjective. If BALPA is pinning their integration into FR crew on those issue, sorry, that is frankly piss-poor.

When FR face soaring costs from a large attrition rate, T&C's will improve. Right now the only attrition rates in the industry are not out of choice but out of necessity see point 2(a).

If you want to get into life and death discussions, what do you do in heavy turbulence.. increase the EPR, re trim and push along regardless ?

Or do you account for the surrounding situation?

These are turbulent times and those that account for that will come out of it with the cleanest trousers and hopefully intact.

It really is worthwhile considering the views of others that have been through turbulent times before, the experiences, who survived and who didn't.

[Abusing_the_sky]

Can i ask my FD colleagues who DO NOT want BALPA recognition if they received a threatening PM asking to back off and stop posting your views or was it just me?

Why is this BALPA member so scared of a little CC voicing her views and opinions on this matter?

And should i have crossed the line, how come the Mods never warned me or banned me?

And another thing gentlemen. How come when someone disagrees with someone else, they are suddenly branded as "management"?
The person who pm-ed me last night knows me very well apparently and he can tell you i am not management.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

You were "threatened" blimey, what did the PM say?

I hope you contacted the police!

[The Real Slim Shady]

whatdoesthisbuttondo,

Better than that. I copied it and sent it to BALPA asking if the statements by someone "delegated to write by BALPA members" is official BALPA policy.

Somehow I think that they will be taking fairly large steps in the opposite direction rather than supporting the membership on this one!!