RYANAIR thoughts
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al446
The law allows for free and fair elections, however when a large group of PILOTS are excluded this cannot be considered as a fair representation of the workforce.
This can be grounds to refuse the results of a vote, by the management as not representative.
As for base closures "Watch this space" they will happen and as RSS has said BRS routes can easily be operated from other bases with just a slight change on timings.
As for bursting my bubble, it is of little worth to me if BALPA get IN or NOT to RYR as I am not an employee.
I am a member of the TGWU, who recently refused to represent an Airline on the grounds that they would be stepping on BALPA's toes.
What I do object to is the exclusion of the BRK pilots from a vote which directly effects their livelyhoods and ability to support their families who in many cases have gone through much hardship to support their partner or children.
As to BALPA themselves they try to sell a product which they cannot possibly achieve, especially with confrontational management.
They are more interested in the 1% subscriptions than the persons they are supposed to represent.
al446 you might well be a BALPA / Unionist stooge posting here in desperation at the dwindling support.
The bottom line to the RYR / BRK pilots is do you believe that base closures will not happen if BALPA get elected ? that your jobs will be safe ?
Think long and hard, and make up your own minds.
Most posts on here are from Die Hard BALPA members or Anti BALPA.
I am trying to inject some reason and fairness (All voices should be heard) into the arguments.
Yes I am anti BALPA (With good reason to be)
Yes I believe in a free and fair vote of ALL BRK / RYR pilots.
In the current climate, do YOU want to RISK your jobs ?
The law allows for free and fair elections, however when a large group of PILOTS are excluded this cannot be considered as a fair representation of the workforce.
This can be grounds to refuse the results of a vote, by the management as not representative.
As for base closures "Watch this space" they will happen and as RSS has said BRS routes can easily be operated from other bases with just a slight change on timings.
As for bursting my bubble, it is of little worth to me if BALPA get IN or NOT to RYR as I am not an employee.
I am a member of the TGWU, who recently refused to represent an Airline on the grounds that they would be stepping on BALPA's toes.
What I do object to is the exclusion of the BRK pilots from a vote which directly effects their livelyhoods and ability to support their families who in many cases have gone through much hardship to support their partner or children.
As to BALPA themselves they try to sell a product which they cannot possibly achieve, especially with confrontational management.
They are more interested in the 1% subscriptions than the persons they are supposed to represent.
al446 you might well be a BALPA / Unionist stooge posting here in desperation at the dwindling support.
The bottom line to the RYR / BRK pilots is do you believe that base closures will not happen if BALPA get elected ? that your jobs will be safe ?
Think long and hard, and make up your own minds.
Most posts on here are from Die Hard BALPA members or Anti BALPA.
I am trying to inject some reason and fairness (All voices should be heard) into the arguments.
Yes I am anti BALPA (With good reason to be)
Yes I believe in a free and fair vote of ALL BRK / RYR pilots.
In the current climate, do YOU want to RISK your jobs ?
Last edited by Day_Dreamer; 21st Jul 2009 at 12:32.
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Yes I believe in a free and fair vote of ALL BRK / RYR pilots.
Are you talking about those guys who aren't given a choice between FR and BRK contracts because the latter are the only ones available?
Are you talking about those guys who are forced to take care of their own taxes/pension/healthcare with all the associated risks of screwing something up in such delicate matters and pay for that personally?
Are you talking about those BRK guys who are not even represented by the ERC's?
Are you talking about those guys whose rosters work according to "guidelines" and could fly 100hrs/month (like some Captains) or 45 like many F/O's with tons of unpaid STBY days?
Are you talking about those guys who get sent to other bases even if based somewhere and are not given the 5th extra day like off like the floaters for commuting having therefore to commute on their last and first days off?
Are you talking about that group of pilots whose jobs can be terminated overnight, who are called self employed without being able to work for anybodyelse but FR (by contract), who have ZERO benefits, who have to pay for absolutely everything by themselves, who don't have any sort of representation nor negotiation system in place?
Yes you are right, let them vote.....
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SCOOP: al446 predicts correctly that The Tooth Fairy exists
What you say may work, it's theoretically possible, if you say so, but the tooth fairy may exist too
40% off the winter flights at STN cancelled.
Time for BALPA to step in and save the day!!
They can start their own airline and all the unhappy pilots in all the miserable tyrannical airlines can toddle off and join, and take al446 with you as the prime negotiator: might as well screw it up royally right from day 1.
BALPA has no influence on commercial decisions: that is reality not al446's life in Far Far Away.
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RSS
BALPA has no influence on commercial decisions
As to the extent of my knowledge, while you underestimate it it doesn't really matter as a great deal of the discussion could equally apply to any other UK business sector, in labour relations aviation is not a special case.
You mention the cancellations at STN. BALPA's fault? Which says RYR is feeling the pinch. All the more reason for the RYR pilots to get BALPA in, unfortunately the BRK guys are on their own as contractors, they knew it when they started.
Unfortunately the earliest I had planned going to far far away land is Sept so I will just have to remain a few miles north of Manchester for the time being in nearby land.
Day dreamer
I am a member of the TGWU who recently refused to represent an Airline on the grounds that they would be stepping on BALPA's toes.
You must be some high falutin kind of member to be approached by an airline. And it is not in your gift to decide who to represent. Besides, UK law allows anyone to apply to join any union, In the case of Unite I very much doubt that they would refuse, if BALPA had recognition within RYR they may suggest that they would be better but if the applicant had reason for not wanting to go down that road they would probably admit and give the best representation they could. As they are already organised amongst many CC they do have relevant aviation experience.
By making the above statement you give me overwhelming reason to think that you are a Walt, or even worse, a RYR stooge. It is compounded by -
The law allows for free and fair elections, however when a large group of PILOTS are excluded this cannot be considered as a fair representation of the workforce.
This can be grounds to refuse the results of a vote, by the management as not representative.
This can be grounds to refuse the results of a vote, by the management as not representative.
al446 you might well be a BALPA / Unionist stooge posting here in desperation at the dwindling support.
I am trying to inject some reason and fairness (All voices should be heard) into the arguments.
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My membership card still carries the Logo TGWU so if its UNITE so what.
I am only a member along with many Pilots who wanted an alternative to BALPA.
We had months of discussions but ultimately we were let down.(internal union politics)
Its a pity that you like many committed unionists dont read what is written as you only see what you want to see. (Or your wife tells you to see)
The bargaining unit are RYR Pilots yes, but over 1/3rd of the workforce are BRK a factor that should be considered in the interests of fair play alone.
al446 I suggest that you too should stop posting on an AIRCREW site as you could never fully understand what we have gone through as members of BALPA and not been adequately supported, and in some cases actively sold down the Swanee.
As I have said before from fact, more BALPA members have left through poor representation, than have been helped.
I can see that by the speed of your response that you might well be an office jock, possibly Press or Union related.
And before you waste time in a counter comment I will tell you that I am on duty later today so at the moment my time is free.
Mrs Maggie Thatcher was right when she brought in the legislation concerning Unions, they were political hacks, who as the tail were trying to wag the dog.
I am only a member along with many Pilots who wanted an alternative to BALPA.
We had months of discussions but ultimately we were let down.(internal union politics)
Its a pity that you like many committed unionists dont read what is written as you only see what you want to see. (Or your wife tells you to see)
The bargaining unit are RYR Pilots yes, but over 1/3rd of the workforce are BRK a factor that should be considered in the interests of fair play alone.
al446 I suggest that you too should stop posting on an AIRCREW site as you could never fully understand what we have gone through as members of BALPA and not been adequately supported, and in some cases actively sold down the Swanee.
As I have said before from fact, more BALPA members have left through poor representation, than have been helped.
I can see that by the speed of your response that you might well be an office jock, possibly Press or Union related.
And before you waste time in a counter comment I will tell you that I am on duty later today so at the moment my time is free.
Mrs Maggie Thatcher was right when she brought in the legislation concerning Unions, they were political hacks, who as the tail were trying to wag the dog.
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I suggest that at each base a Pilot gets in touch with each BRK pilot and obtains their e-mail BALPA member or Not.
Then a mass e-mail is sent out to gauge the feeling for inclusion in the final vote.
Should there be a majority then you can approach BALPA to include the BRK pilots in the final count.
This at least would be their chance to be included in any decision making process.
As many of you say BALPA must work for you, and if its the will of the members to include the BRK pilots then they should respect your wishes and act accordingly.
I am glad to see that re-deployment is mentioned ex STN and PIK rather than job losses.
YES I am against the new and old taxes, set by a disfunctional and out of touch government.
If you include the BRK pilots, which has been part of my argument then that is one battle in the war won.
Then a mass e-mail is sent out to gauge the feeling for inclusion in the final vote.
Should there be a majority then you can approach BALPA to include the BRK pilots in the final count.
This at least would be their chance to be included in any decision making process.
As many of you say BALPA must work for you, and if its the will of the members to include the BRK pilots then they should respect your wishes and act accordingly.
I am glad to see that re-deployment is mentioned ex STN and PIK rather than job losses.
YES I am against the new and old taxes, set by a disfunctional and out of touch government.
If you include the BRK pilots, which has been part of my argument then that is one battle in the war won.
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PIK capacity reduction,Now STN
Interesting article,describing mol outed as the CAMEL!
Ryanair withdraw planes following massive huff with Stansted | BitterWallet
The Paypers. Insights in payments.
whatever about the environmental tax,why not tackle the card charges?
Ryanair withdraw planes following massive huff with Stansted | BitterWallet
The Paypers. Insights in payments.
whatever about the environmental tax,why not tackle the card charges?
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What a shame...
I ve been told by Brookfield F/Os that they are planned now for some base duty without being paid!
Where are we going like that? what a beautiful Ryanair world, if we let that going on, CPTs are going to do the same!
I ve been told by Brookfield F/Os that they are planned now for some base duty without being paid!
Where are we going like that? what a beautiful Ryanair world, if we let that going on, CPTs are going to do the same!
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The way I understand it Day Dreamer, is that whether you include them or not doesn't matter, as the vote is for RYR employees (which as contractors who are self employed, doesn't include BRK). If you were to include them and they voted in favour of BALPA, I am sure RYR would be front of the queue pointing this out.
Whether this is morally right/wrong is for another discussion. Unfortunately the law is the law (which is an ass at times).
As for being sold down the swanee by BALPA, well that is a great shame, there are people out there like you. You were not the first, and I'm in no doubt you will not be the last. There are people in my company who are not BALPA members for that reason, these are the people I don't begrudge living off my coat tails as I pay my subs. The people I can't stand are the ones taking the benefits that BALPA and our CC achieve for us, while being too cheap to stump up the subs (fortunately they are few and far between).
Whether this is morally right/wrong is for another discussion. Unfortunately the law is the law (which is an ass at times).
As for being sold down the swanee by BALPA, well that is a great shame, there are people out there like you. You were not the first, and I'm in no doubt you will not be the last. There are people in my company who are not BALPA members for that reason, these are the people I don't begrudge living off my coat tails as I pay my subs. The people I can't stand are the ones taking the benefits that BALPA and our CC achieve for us, while being too cheap to stump up the subs (fortunately they are few and far between).
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Day dreamer
I can see that by the speed of your response that you might well be an office jock, possibly Press or Union related.
The bargaining unit are RYR Pilots yes, but over 1/3rd of the workforce are BRK a factor that should be considered in the interests of fair play alone.
I suggest that at each base a Pilot gets in touch with each BRK pilot and obtains their e-mail BALPA member or Not.
Then a mass e-mail is sent out to gauge the feeling for inclusion in the final vote.
Should there be a majority then you can approach BALPA to include the BRK pilots in the final count.
Then a mass e-mail is sent out to gauge the feeling for inclusion in the final vote.
Should there be a majority then you can approach BALPA to include the BRK pilots in the final count.
The reality for BRK guys is that they only mirror whole swathes of UK workforce most of which is run on 50% or more agency labour and BRK = agency. I see it in my workplace. When we have a ballot on T&Cs agency are excluded as their contract is with their agency, not my employer. even when they join the union I am limited in how far I can represent due to this. I wish it were different, I was in their position until I was taken on directly. Welcome to the real world.
al446 I suggest that you too should stop posting on an AIRCREW site as you could never fully understand what we have gone through as members of BALPA and not been adequately supported, and in some cases actively sold down the Swanee.
For what it is worth I think it would serve you well to request a closed RYR page which would remove me.
Its a pity that you like many committed unionists dont read what is written as you only see what you want to see. (Or your wife tells you to see)
If you include the BRK pilots, which has been part of my argument then that is one battle in the war won.
Your final point on Thatcher etc had some limited merit a long time ago, almost 30 years ago. The debate/argument over that should not be carried out in this forum but if you wish to direct me to one that is more appropriate I will be only too happy to join discussion with you. I do find it disappointing that you approach industrial relations with that parrot sat on your shoulder.
This discussion is about the future of RYR pilots and how their T&Cs have and will be eroded, it is in the interest of those of us further down the pay scales do not see this happen as it is probably the only part of trickle-down that will happen ie we shall be hit harder.
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al446
Read the posts more carefully.
I was NOT approached by an airline, quite the opposite I was part of the airline membership that approached the TGWU (UNITE).
Specsavers do great rates on glasses I get mine there.
You may put a case for the law but a legal eagle tells me there is precedence for allowing in the BRK as part of the bargaining body.(Mainly as they only work for RYR)
A closed RYR page is a good idea, as many companies have on here.
You must understand that I am posting for the rights of the BRK crews, their future is at stake and they need inclusion in the decision making.
I feel sure that many of the RYR pilots would like to have them (BRK) included as they are an integral part of the team.
Whilst we are fighting our respective corners there are far more RYR / BRK pilots who do not post, it will ultimately be their vote which will decide the outcome.
Read the posts more carefully.
I was NOT approached by an airline, quite the opposite I was part of the airline membership that approached the TGWU (UNITE).
Specsavers do great rates on glasses I get mine there.
You may put a case for the law but a legal eagle tells me there is precedence for allowing in the BRK as part of the bargaining body.(Mainly as they only work for RYR)
A closed RYR page is a good idea, as many companies have on here.
You must understand that I am posting for the rights of the BRK crews, their future is at stake and they need inclusion in the decision making.
I feel sure that many of the RYR pilots would like to have them (BRK) included as they are an integral part of the team.
Whilst we are fighting our respective corners there are far more RYR / BRK pilots who do not post, it will ultimately be their vote which will decide the outcome.
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Day dreamer
I am glad you find my suggestion of a closed page to have merit, it has the added advantage that the journos don't get to look at it unless they manage to hack it. Hopefully keeps management out too.
Apologies about misunderstanding your role re TGWU, I am always willing to admit genuine mistakes.
I would have to disagree with your legal mate, in certain circumstances he may be right in assessing if the BRK guy was to all intents and purposes employed solely in RYR work, this is especially true in unfair dismissal cases where if you can prove that your services are used by only RYR, you are dependant on that and are treated in the same way as RYR pilots then employment law may be applicable. It is more dodgy in terms of recognition as the determinant, I believe, is who your contract of employment is issued by. By all means challenge it but I think it is slim to almost impossible.
I understand your motivation, I am very fond of the agency colleagues I work and try to provide as much support as I can but am aware of the limitations. I have been there and understand their vulnerability and lack of security. I detest the way UK has gone in employing agency workers willy-nilly, I saw this first in Holland in the 80s. It leads to short termism by management and those direct employees who are left being shafted but it is not a problem that will be wished away.
I fully agree with your closing sentence. Good luck to all, aviation has a way to go down before it comes up.
Apologies about misunderstanding your role re TGWU, I am always willing to admit genuine mistakes.
I would have to disagree with your legal mate, in certain circumstances he may be right in assessing if the BRK guy was to all intents and purposes employed solely in RYR work, this is especially true in unfair dismissal cases where if you can prove that your services are used by only RYR, you are dependant on that and are treated in the same way as RYR pilots then employment law may be applicable. It is more dodgy in terms of recognition as the determinant, I believe, is who your contract of employment is issued by. By all means challenge it but I think it is slim to almost impossible.
I understand your motivation, I am very fond of the agency colleagues I work and try to provide as much support as I can but am aware of the limitations. I have been there and understand their vulnerability and lack of security. I detest the way UK has gone in employing agency workers willy-nilly, I saw this first in Holland in the 80s. It leads to short termism by management and those direct employees who are left being shafted but it is not a problem that will be wished away.
I fully agree with your closing sentence. Good luck to all, aviation has a way to go down before it comes up.
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Lads
Just reading the news about cutting flights and aircraft in/from the UK airports. I know that they were making threats about closing some UK bases but thought it was all hot air. I am wondering if this threat is now more realistic and achievable. Good luck to all of you. I don't know what advice to give about the chipping away at your terms and conditions but you do need to stick together.
Just reading the news about cutting flights and aircraft in/from the UK airports. I know that they were making threats about closing some UK bases but thought it was all hot air. I am wondering if this threat is now more realistic and achievable. Good luck to all of you. I don't know what advice to give about the chipping away at your terms and conditions but you do need to stick together.
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It annoys me that the little pikey is crying about the UK putting up APD tax. Maybe he should look closer to home and put all his 'employees' on full time contracts and start to match the income tax and NI contributions.
Once again he gets free advertising by making bull**** outrageous comments in the papers. I don't know why the editors give him the free adverts.
These cuts at STN, and any other base closures at the UK have bugger all to do with the BALPA campaign. Too many seats for a market that doesn't demand it.
Once again he gets free advertising by making bull**** outrageous comments in the papers. I don't know why the editors give him the free adverts.
These cuts at STN, and any other base closures at the UK have bugger all to do with the BALPA campaign. Too many seats for a market that doesn't demand it.
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SD
I am totally in agreement with you. The increase in APD pales into insignificance in comparison to the upping of additional or hidden charges levied by RYR, I will not even touch on customer service.
Everyone with a hole in his *rse knew that a drop in demand was on its way, I am surprised it has taken this long to translate to cuts, but MOL and co will blame it on the BALPA thing, hence the postings of those paragons of truth such as The Real Slim Shady, Jenny B, CommandB etc. TRSS is a honey, almost every post he has put up has tried to spread disinformation but, when challenged him he has been knocked down. Don't get me wrong, some of what he posted has an element of truth.
Some bases probably will close as aviation feels the bite even deeper, an influential think tank is now predicting that it will be 5 years before UK economy recovers to LAST year's level, people will be laid off. All the more reason to unionise, whether it is BALPA or another does not concern me, the important thing is that it happens with ONE pilot's union and you elect people of vision and integrity to represent you.
Everyone with a hole in his *rse knew that a drop in demand was on its way, I am surprised it has taken this long to translate to cuts, but MOL and co will blame it on the BALPA thing, hence the postings of those paragons of truth such as The Real Slim Shady, Jenny B, CommandB etc. TRSS is a honey, almost every post he has put up has tried to spread disinformation but, when challenged him he has been knocked down. Don't get me wrong, some of what he posted has an element of truth.
Some bases probably will close as aviation feels the bite even deeper, an influential think tank is now predicting that it will be 5 years before UK economy recovers to LAST year's level, people will be laid off. All the more reason to unionise, whether it is BALPA or another does not concern me, the important thing is that it happens with ONE pilot's union and you elect people of vision and integrity to represent you.
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Gentlemen. Whichever side of this debate you are on, most of you have one thing in common. You all have a job with a major airline. You enjoy a fixed roster pattern which in my experience counts for a great deal. It acknowledges the fact that you have a life outside the job that you can plan and organise, more than a mnoth in advance, like real people do. Of course you may well be based away from home but you can at least plan trips back regularly.
The alternative is likely to be up to 2 months at a stretch in some armpit country, and 2 weeks with your family, for crap pay.
My application to FR was rejected prior to assessment despite ticking all the boxes many times over. More than one person has suggested its because of this unrest about unions. Who knows?
Sometimes its worth thinking about what you`ve got instead of what you would like!
Good luck! and for goodness sake dont let this get in the way of staying safe!!!
The alternative is likely to be up to 2 months at a stretch in some armpit country, and 2 weeks with your family, for crap pay.
My application to FR was rejected prior to assessment despite ticking all the boxes many times over. More than one person has suggested its because of this unrest about unions. Who knows?
Sometimes its worth thinking about what you`ve got instead of what you would like!
Good luck! and for goodness sake dont let this get in the way of staying safe!!!
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Well said, Stig. Sorry you didn't make it but you might care to try again. As the Chinese say; "opportunity in chaos" The base freeze has sharpened our focus on DEC's for the time being. Do try again, won't you?
Leo.
Leo.