RYANAIR thoughts
Join Date: May 2008
Location: London
Age: 55
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aldente,
"My P60 showed a gross pay of just over £90,000 for the tax year 2008/9, my take home pay most month's is over £5000"
Can certainly see why you are manning the barricades....
Can't believe that some people on here equate those sort of wages with slavery and working in sweat-shops.
Think that perspective is a kind of plastic window to some.
"My P60 showed a gross pay of just over £90,000 for the tax year 2008/9, my take home pay most month's is over £5000"
Can certainly see why you are manning the barricades....
Can't believe that some people on here equate those sort of wages with slavery and working in sweat-shops.
Think that perspective is a kind of plastic window to some.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
slim
As you well know, the BALPA subs are based on 1 % of BASIC salary, and as you also well know, basic salaries in Ryanair are well below the industry average (even lower for new Captains !), with something like 40 % of our income earned in sector pay (which does not form part of our basic pay).
And when the UK tax authorities have finished conducting their review of Ryanair sector pay over the next couple of months, and we end up with what is effectively a pay cut, doubtless you and your ERC cronies will just roll over and accept it just like everything else you have rubber stamped.
After all what else can you do ? .........
PS Jenny B there is a lot more to this than money - are you suggesting that because we earn relatively high wages compared to many , we should not complain about any of our terms and conditions ?!
As you well know, the BALPA subs are based on 1 % of BASIC salary, and as you also well know, basic salaries in Ryanair are well below the industry average (even lower for new Captains !), with something like 40 % of our income earned in sector pay (which does not form part of our basic pay).
And when the UK tax authorities have finished conducting their review of Ryanair sector pay over the next couple of months, and we end up with what is effectively a pay cut, doubtless you and your ERC cronies will just roll over and accept it just like everything else you have rubber stamped.
After all what else can you do ? .........
PS Jenny B there is a lot more to this than money - are you suggesting that because we earn relatively high wages compared to many , we should not complain about any of our terms and conditions ?!
Join Date: May 2008
Location: London
Age: 55
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No merely saying that to equate what you do and earn should never be equated with slavery and Third World sweatshops as some would have it on any Ryanair thread.
From every thread on Ryanair would have thought that your wage was just spin from the management anyway, and everybody only earns £2.50 a week and an out of date packet of pickled onion Monster Munch whilst being whipped in the the galleys.
From every thread on Ryanair would have thought that your wage was just spin from the management anyway, and everybody only earns £2.50 a week and an out of date packet of pickled onion Monster Munch whilst being whipped in the the galleys.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: monaco
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My P60 showed a gross pay of just over £90,000 for the tax year 2008/9, my take home pay most month's is over £5000, yet I still only pay £39 per month to BALPA before tax.
to those 5000 you should subtract car park, uniforms, hotels, loss of license, pension scheme, transportation to/from sims....and considering we fly more hours/year that any other airline in the business (up to the max legal limit of 900) I cannot blame some of us feeling treated like slaves if compared to other colleagues doing the same job.
Go and ask any BA/LH/AF/KL/IB/EZ etc. Capt what his net take home would be flying 900 hours/year and also ask him about his benefits.
See where modern slavery starts now?
Join Date: May 2008
Location: London
Age: 55
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Modern slavery?
If you ever had a plot I'm afraid you have lost it.
It's the total lack of perspective that some of you have that negates any genuine grievances you may have.
Modern slavery, good God
If you ever had a plot I'm afraid you have lost it.
It's the total lack of perspective that some of you have that negates any genuine grievances you may have.
Modern slavery, good God
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dre's mum's house
Posts: 1,432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vexed,
the problem of interpretation arises mainly due to the variation in wording from the Employment Act to the CAC website etc.
The Employment Act talks, if I remember, about union members, whereas the CAC site talks about workers: I posted a copy of the exact wording earlier.
My own preference would be for all the "workers", RYR and BRK, to be balloted, but even now, one of my colleagues, a BALPA member, tells me that the union have been asking the membership to vote for recognition, not the workers.
This is from the act, my emphasis, :
You can see where the confusion may arise.
the problem of interpretation arises mainly due to the variation in wording from the Employment Act to the CAC website etc.
The Employment Act talks, if I remember, about union members, whereas the CAC site talks about workers: I posted a copy of the exact wording earlier.
My own preference would be for all the "workers", RYR and BRK, to be balloted, but even now, one of my colleagues, a BALPA member, tells me that the union have been asking the membership to vote for recognition, not the workers.
This is from the act, my emphasis, :
the CAC is satisfied that a ballot should be held in the interests of good industrial relations;
(b) a significant number of the union members within the bargaining unit inform the CAC that they do not want the union (or unions) to conduct collective bargaining on their behalf;
(c) membership evidence is produced which leads the CAC to conclude that there are doubts whether a significant number of the union members within the bargaining unit want the union (or unions) to conduct collective bargaining on their behalf.
(b) a significant number of the union members within the bargaining unit inform the CAC that they do not want the union (or unions) to conduct collective bargaining on their behalf;
(c) membership evidence is produced which leads the CAC to conclude that there are doubts whether a significant number of the union members within the bargaining unit want the union (or unions) to conduct collective bargaining on their behalf.
Last edited by The Real Slim Shady; 17th Jul 2009 at 12:03. Reason: Addition of extract from Employment Act
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 3433N 06912E
Posts: 389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Modern slavery?
If you ever had a plot I'm afraid you have lost it.
It's the total lack of perspective that some of you have that negates any genuine grievances you may have.
Modern slavery, good God
If you ever had a plot I'm afraid you have lost it.
It's the total lack of perspective that some of you have that negates any genuine grievances you may have.
Modern slavery, good God
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: monaco
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JennyB,
1- hardest working pilots in the industry
2- lowest T&C's in the industry if compared to productivity
3- lack of even the most basic benefits (if I don't arrange my own loss of license and should I damage my hearing because of an emergency descent while on duty then I'm on the streets without a penny and without perspective as you like to call it).
4- bullying management that closes bases from one day to the next and moves people and their families around Europe as they please without even the slightest support
5- more than half of the pilot population hired on BRK contracts (without the possibility of choosing a permanent one ) making their jobs subject to any ups and downs the industry (company) may have including allocated annual leave/months off/undetermined stby days/terminations etc without any rights/benefits/job security/legal protection/healthcare/tax advice not to mention the case of a female pilot forced to accept a BRK contract that may want to build a family and have children would remain without a salary,without a job,without healtcare (you are a woman Jenny so I'm trying to use issues that you would undertstand better since the practicalities of our job don't seem to be on your agenda) forcing any FR/BRK female pilots to effectively choose between their jobs and becoming broke mothers.
And all of this is happening in 2009 under the legal umbrella of the mighty EU laws.
Slavery was also perceived as legal and normal just a few decades ago.
1- hardest working pilots in the industry
2- lowest T&C's in the industry if compared to productivity
3- lack of even the most basic benefits (if I don't arrange my own loss of license and should I damage my hearing because of an emergency descent while on duty then I'm on the streets without a penny and without perspective as you like to call it).
4- bullying management that closes bases from one day to the next and moves people and their families around Europe as they please without even the slightest support
5- more than half of the pilot population hired on BRK contracts (without the possibility of choosing a permanent one ) making their jobs subject to any ups and downs the industry (company) may have including allocated annual leave/months off/undetermined stby days/terminations etc without any rights/benefits/job security/legal protection/healthcare/tax advice not to mention the case of a female pilot forced to accept a BRK contract that may want to build a family and have children would remain without a salary,without a job,without healtcare (you are a woman Jenny so I'm trying to use issues that you would undertstand better since the practicalities of our job don't seem to be on your agenda) forcing any FR/BRK female pilots to effectively choose between their jobs and becoming broke mothers.
And all of this is happening in 2009 under the legal umbrella of the mighty EU laws.
Slavery was also perceived as legal and normal just a few decades ago.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: London
Age: 55
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dannyalliga,
Please stop before you dig yourself even deeper.
The sad thing is that you genuinely do believe that you are a slave on £90,000 a year, working 5 days on 4 days off, and, once you reach your legal maximum of flying hours, unable to work until the clock is re-set.
Please go away and look up slavery in a dictionary or on google, you will find it just down from self-obsessed, perspective-free pilot.
Please stop before you dig yourself even deeper.
The sad thing is that you genuinely do believe that you are a slave on £90,000 a year, working 5 days on 4 days off, and, once you reach your legal maximum of flying hours, unable to work until the clock is re-set.
Please go away and look up slavery in a dictionary or on google, you will find it just down from self-obsessed, perspective-free pilot.
Guest
Posts: n/a
...............and even further down from pilot-hating Ops bod? 
danny. I've no love for RYR management but you're the authors of your own misfortunes and those at other companies whose T&C's have suffered the knock-on effects (although some of us are immune, for now).
Without wishing to appear too blunt you bought your way into the job and now face the consequences. Dine with the devil and all that.
danny. I've no love for RYR management but you're the authors of your own misfortunes and those at other companies whose T&C's have suffered the knock-on effects (although some of us are immune, for now).
Without wishing to appear too blunt you bought your way into the job and now face the consequences. Dine with the devil and all that.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: London
Age: 55
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not a pilot hater at all, but some do come out with some rubbish..
As you said yourself very pertinently:
"Without wishing to appear too blunt you bought your way into the job and now face the consequences. Dine with the devil and all that."
Which doesn't smack of forced labour to me, nor do the salaries, terms and conditions which you all seem to think are so heinous.
As you said yourself very pertinently:
"Without wishing to appear too blunt you bought your way into the job and now face the consequences. Dine with the devil and all that."
Which doesn't smack of forced labour to me, nor do the salaries, terms and conditions which you all seem to think are so heinous.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: monaco
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The sad thing is that you genuinely do believe that you are a slave on £90,000 a year, working 5 days on 4 days off, and, once you reach your legal maximum of flying hours, unable to work until the clock is re-set.
I might as well be one of those F/O's who spend most of their time in a base 1000nm from home, on a 5/3 roster (see new italian bases) of which 3 days SBY and 2 days of work, making about 2500 euros net (35% tax) for not even 50 hours/month to which you should subtract rent,bills,car park, hotels, loss of licence, healthcare, uniform...
I might be one of those to which a 2 weeks A/L has been allocated in the month preceeeding a month off leaving me with only 2000 euros for over 2 months.
I might be one of those VLC pilots who had to move house, family, kids, find schools, who lost their rent deposits and rush to a new allocated base in just a few days without ANY support whatsoever from the company.
I might be one of those F/O's whose command upgrade has been stopped or whose transfer request frozen due to a unilateral decision of the company in retaliation to union recognition reviving mass punishments in a perfect soviet/nazi/slavery style.
I might be one of the many stories present in FR and that you and all the company puppets and union busters don't want to hear.
Probably because hearing the truth hurts and scares those who manipulate the puppets.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by JennyB
...you all....]
That said...... danny, sorry but many of you got into your present predicament by knowingly buying your way into a company run by shysters. While I have sympathy for anyone employed under false pretences the majority of RYR crew paid up and walked in eyes open.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: monaco
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That said...... danny, sorry but many of you got into your present predicament by knowingly buying your way into a company run by shysters. While I have sympathy for anyone employed under false pretences the majority of RYR crew paid up and walked in eyes open.
I might be a self sponsored cadet who at the age of 20 paid his way into an FR cockpit but I might as well be an aged Capt. who found himself having to take up this job because his airline went bust due to unfair competition of those who employ underpaid and badly treated eastern european F/A's, or desperate brasilian or russian pilots, who put half of their workforce under a BRK contract without any tax obligations saving on heathcare, pensions, training, insurances etc etc.
Many of us here are tired of the state of things and are looking for change, your comment might be pertinent in a way but it surely doesn't help the cause.
Guest
Posts: n/a
You're right, I'm not helping your cause but frankly I'm tired of trying to do so.
I've been banging on against job buying for years only to be shouted down again and again by people fresh out of flying school wanting to go straight to the RH seat of a big jet. Apparently I was/am "out of touch" with the way things are nowadays
Well now you're seeing the other half of just how those things are and while I'd dearly love to see O'Leary and his cohorts brought to task please don't suggest that this is anything other than your fight.
You all contributed to the situation when you bought your jobs, perhaps you can pull together and earn better T&C's. Don't expect too much help from outside the company though. The rest of us have watched SSTR's contribute to the demise of this profession for too long to rock our own boats. Selfish? Physician, heal thyself.
I've been banging on against job buying for years only to be shouted down again and again by people fresh out of flying school wanting to go straight to the RH seat of a big jet. Apparently I was/am "out of touch" with the way things are nowadays
Well now you're seeing the other half of just how those things are and while I'd dearly love to see O'Leary and his cohorts brought to task please don't suggest that this is anything other than your fight. You all contributed to the situation when you bought your jobs, perhaps you can pull together and earn better T&C's. Don't expect too much help from outside the company though. The rest of us have watched SSTR's contribute to the demise of this profession for too long to rock our own boats. Selfish? Physician, heal thyself.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or maybe like me you are an experienced pilot who joined Ryanair with his eyes wide open a number of years ago and is still happy working there?
Airlines T+C's are market driven, if you don't like it where you work, move on to somewhere 'better'.
JennyB talks more sense than anyone else on the thread.
Airlines T+C's are market driven, if you don't like it where you work, move on to somewhere 'better'.
JennyB talks more sense than anyone else on the thread.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: BHX-MAN-EMA
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flintstone
I deal most days with job hunting newly qualified pilots, many would prefer not to pay for a type rating.
But
The old days are long gone, as are the days of Chief pilots knocking on the doors of the training schools looking for pilots.
Airlines are in the deepest doodoo ever, and since the accountants took over every facet of the business, cost cutting has been the name of the game.
Paying for a rating is a major way of saving costs, and mitigating risk.
The student carries both costing the airline little until qualified on type.
This is the way it is now, even the airlines not going down this route are considering it, along with reducing the hotel and allowances during training.
Many will now blame this on Ryanair MOL reducing costs and T&C's but I was in an airline offering SSTR's long before MOL decided to put his ideas into effect.
The bleating sheep of BALPA are trying to make people believe that the magic wand will be waved and the good old days will return if you just pay your 1% (For their Junkets).
The old days (God Bless Them) are now consigned to the graveyard where the likes of Dan Air, British Caledonian and Air Europe all good BALPA companies lie buried.
There are many out there who will pay for their ratings, and jump the que of the its immoral to pay brigade.
Thats called life !!!
Those who can and will put themselves in hoc, in this day and age will beat those who believe a job should come to them as they now have a new fATPL.
dannyalliga
A lot of what you say may be your perception of life, but can you actually substantiate your claims with facts ? from within the RYR community.
Or is it just the BRK pilots who are suffering ?
If its the BRK pilots they are NOT included in this BALPA debate even if they are members because they are considered as contractors.
So your statements have no bearing on the BALPA debate.
The only way forward is to include ALL Pilots operating for Ryanair contract or permanent.
Protect your jobs, and those who work with you "VOTE NO TO BALPA"
I deal most days with job hunting newly qualified pilots, many would prefer not to pay for a type rating.
But
The old days are long gone, as are the days of Chief pilots knocking on the doors of the training schools looking for pilots.
Airlines are in the deepest doodoo ever, and since the accountants took over every facet of the business, cost cutting has been the name of the game.
Paying for a rating is a major way of saving costs, and mitigating risk.
The student carries both costing the airline little until qualified on type.
This is the way it is now, even the airlines not going down this route are considering it, along with reducing the hotel and allowances during training.
Many will now blame this on Ryanair MOL reducing costs and T&C's but I was in an airline offering SSTR's long before MOL decided to put his ideas into effect.
The bleating sheep of BALPA are trying to make people believe that the magic wand will be waved and the good old days will return if you just pay your 1% (For their Junkets).
The old days (God Bless Them) are now consigned to the graveyard where the likes of Dan Air, British Caledonian and Air Europe all good BALPA companies lie buried.
There are many out there who will pay for their ratings, and jump the que of the its immoral to pay brigade.
Thats called life !!!
Those who can and will put themselves in hoc, in this day and age will beat those who believe a job should come to them as they now have a new fATPL.
dannyalliga
A lot of what you say may be your perception of life, but can you actually substantiate your claims with facts ? from within the RYR community.
Or is it just the BRK pilots who are suffering ?
If its the BRK pilots they are NOT included in this BALPA debate even if they are members because they are considered as contractors.
So your statements have no bearing on the BALPA debate.
The only way forward is to include ALL Pilots operating for Ryanair contract or permanent.
Protect your jobs, and those who work with you "VOTE NO TO BALPA"
Join Date: May 2008
Location: London
Age: 55
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flintstone,
"While the pay and conditions he quotes might be better than those of, say, an ops bod (many of whom get me through my days without a hitch) if you compare the personal investment that a pilot and dispatcher make in their careers you'll see why the former expect to earn more."
Still don't see your point to be honest, not comparing(or complaining) my wages with any pilots, but if somebody chooses to go into a job, not forced, and then earns £90,000 a year, and work a reasonable roster, then would hardly say it is slavery, forced labour in a salt mine or working in "the dark Satanic mills" as some may have it.
Now if Ryanair are running round pubs, getting unsuspecting pilots drunk, giving them the Queens shilling, coshing them over the head, and they then wake up in the left or right hand seat of a B737 about to take-off out of Stansted then I take it all back.
"While the pay and conditions he quotes might be better than those of, say, an ops bod (many of whom get me through my days without a hitch) if you compare the personal investment that a pilot and dispatcher make in their careers you'll see why the former expect to earn more."
Still don't see your point to be honest, not comparing(or complaining) my wages with any pilots, but if somebody chooses to go into a job, not forced, and then earns £90,000 a year, and work a reasonable roster, then would hardly say it is slavery, forced labour in a salt mine or working in "the dark Satanic mills" as some may have it.
Now if Ryanair are running round pubs, getting unsuspecting pilots drunk, giving them the Queens shilling, coshing them over the head, and they then wake up in the left or right hand seat of a B737 about to take-off out of Stansted then I take it all back.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Jenny. You either can't or won't see the point. I'm unable to use words with smaller syllables I'm afraid.
DayDreamer. Thanks for SSTR #101. I know why it's done, know it's almost de rigeur these days and I also know that pilots who helped nurture this pox by buying into it are as much to blame as the companies who now see it as an additional income stream. I've discussed this ad nauseaum on here over a decade or so having done fairly well without resorting to it myself so 'life' as you put it still progresses minus the big loans. Not quite sure why you're talking to me about BALPA, no interest to me whatsoever thanks.
DayDreamer. Thanks for SSTR #101. I know why it's done, know it's almost de rigeur these days and I also know that pilots who helped nurture this pox by buying into it are as much to blame as the companies who now see it as an additional income stream. I've discussed this ad nauseaum on here over a decade or so having done fairly well without resorting to it myself so 'life' as you put it still progresses minus the big loans. Not quite sure why you're talking to me about BALPA, no interest to me whatsoever thanks.