RYANAIR thoughts

[Abusing_the_sky]

197 A/C have to be crewed and need engineers so if aircraft get moved they are still going to have to staffed. Ryanair have a legal obligation under EU, UK and most other EU countries law to offer you alternative positions or arrangements in these other bases. You might have to move but your job or position is still going to have to be maintained and that is without discussing if closing a base because of recognition (as you say will happen) is even legal. Will your position be maintained? Yes it will.

But i don't want to move! That's the point i (and many others are) am trying to make! I am perfectly fine where i am now. Why should i pay a rent somewhere outside the UK when i have my house here in the Midlands? Are you, your pro BALPA friends and BALPA itself going to pay for my rent when i get transferred so i can afford to pay for the mortgage?? I can't do both you know.

I have seen a number of BRK FO's struggling to make bill payments because of a lack of flying never mind if the said individual gets injured. Just a question; Will you pay his or her bills once the winter down happens or he breaks a leg? These individuals have on or around £100,000 of debt but are struggling to make loan repayments from flight training.

Again, will YOU pay for my rent when i am transferred outside the UK because MOL is so pi$$ed off with this BALPA thing that he's going to close down the base?
I do feel sorry for these guys and gals, and i honestly wish them all the best and hope they get back on their feet. However, isn't it all laid down in their T&C's? I'm sure the company wouldn't do that without looking into T&C's first. They are not stupid, they are a BUSINESS and will do whatever it takes to keep it going. What they won't do is being careless and find themselves taken to court. They've done it in the past and lost. I guess they learned a lesson.

The UK market is the largest market and nearly half of all movements are in or out of the UK.

Correct, however closing the UK bases won't affect the company's revenue one bit; they will simply relocate a/c's "at the other end". They'll still have flights in or out of the UK, and still keep the UK market which indeed, is the largest methinks. Opening a base in say BTS won't cost as much as a bases' costs in the UK. It's all economics. All about money, revenue and profits. Would you do it differently should you have your own airline?

The local development funds and tourism councils that supply Ryanair with money either through direct funding or through proxy's such as the airports, demand job creation and stability

Now, who's supplying who with money? Wasn't the FR-VLC apt tiff all about that? VLC apt wanted more money off FR? FR bring in pax; pax pay lots of taxes when they purchase their tickets, part of these "taxes" going to the area councils/govs/authorities where the apt is.
Job creation and stability.... basically take an engineers' job who is perfectly content and happy with his/her UK base as he/she only lives down the road from the apt and who can't take the company's transfer offer on because his/her parents are ill and he/she needs to stay locally to look after them, and give his/her job to a contractor engineer, more workload on this person's shoulders but for the same money he/she earns already. Ruin 2 lives at one time, why don't you?

They just rely on the perception to everyone no matter whom they are that they will. In other words all Ryanair managers have to do is sell you the aroma of invincibility when in very real terms they are not.

So does BALPA. At least you don't pay Ryanair a "membership fee" and you know exactly what to expect from them, good or bad.


If you can prove and guarantee me in writing that FR will not close my base down should BALPA be recognized, a document signed by all the FR head honchos guaranteeing i will keep my job in the base i am now, i will then be more than happy to stop posting and "outrage" my dearest F/D colleagues with my opinions.
You can't? Thought so...

[pilot999]

So what if the fo's are paid less than the London tube drivers.

Maybe the tube drivers are overpaid

the less fo's get paid, the more I will

[Abusing_the_sky]

GROW A PAIR!

I have a bigger and stronger pair than you pal and i am all woman!!!

TRSS has a way bigger pair as he doesn't hide behind Pprune anonymity - people know who he is and he never denied it.

There are more people with a bigger "pair" than yours and your union supporter friends; just have a read through the thread to see how many sensible, who can see the reality as it is people DO NOT want BALPA involved in the company because it will not only affect their jobs, but their lives too.

I'll quote myself, just for you:

If you can prove and guarantee me in writing that FR will not close my base down should BALPA be recognized, a document signed by all the FR head honchos guaranteeing i will keep my job in the base i am now, i will then be more than happy to stop posting and "outrage" my dearest F/D colleagues with my opinions.

[Day_Dreamer]

Alibaba

Your view of the Airline economics is correct in a perfect world, but we live in a real world, where perfection is a myth.

The post that I have read from you are all flawed in several aspects, and are infact pure BALPA style propaganda.

The jobs will be lost, bases closed and lives wrecked.
You mention the BRK pilots, they have No say now and will still have NO say should BALPA get in.
Your misguided statements are the type that creates insecurities within a workforce, as they show that there is hope after base closure.
You forget the statement that there will be no Pilot relocation, there is a guarantee of that. Base closed Your out, Bye Bye dont leave the lights on if your last to leave the base.

Powdermonkey

You too are not helping with your remarks, and statement to "Grow Some".
Look at how BALPA are acting with the redundancies in Virgin, and their lapdogs in BA, its not MOL running those companies (Although he could not do any worse ) the people who are, are accountants.
They are the architects of all the industries cutbacks and reductions in T&C's

I predict that there will be many more job losses in the industry this winter, do those who support BALPA think that they can stop this ?
Dont be stupid, economics will require cutback in all scheduled and charter airlines into late 2010.
Do you want work, or the dole que.
We have seen MOL playing ball, now watch him play "Hardball"

Still nobody has answered what part the BRK pilots will play, or even if they will be given a voice.
The "I'm alright Jack" brigade will bust your a.. every time.
The BALPA or Bust brigade will cause more grief to their colleagues (Who they care nothing about) than they could ever imagine.

BALPA cannot and will not protect you. Its your career, your job, protect your colleagues.

[powdermonkey]

Ok....may I recant the "grow a pair " comment, it was however based on the fact that "fear" of outcome is driving people to not fight for and preserve conditions which are without question in decline!
So let's move on, the issue is not that BALPA or IALPA will save your job if due to genuine economical issues, positions will be made redundant, **** happens, I KNOW! however the issue is that you should have the RIGHT to vote for OR against recognition, WITHOUT any fear of losing your base, job, way of life etc....and until ALL get involved and allow democracy to rule, then economic crisis or boom time, it won't matter, BECAUSE without a common voice, management can do whatever they desire to reduce costs and keep share holders happy, for they will ALWAYS demand more,
Vote, have your voice heard, and move with the outcome. BUT unfair treatment is NOT acceptable in any workplace. That is all the point that I am making.

FURTHERMORE, there MAY and I pray not, come a day when you or one of your colleagues gets mistreated ( sacked, bullied, put on too many standbys, moved, reduced pay, change of roster etc) and there will be NO one to help, no one to agree and fight your corner on, no support of any kind, no renumeration....what happens then? and it will be all too easy for management, as this is EXACTLY why they have you all so divided! Its a real shame!

[powdermonkey]

To ATS

I HAVE read the thread, carefully and many times over, not just this one but ALL the other threads too...and unless I am terribly mistaken, the overiding anti-union concerns seem to be over fear of management reprisals ( ie closing of bases if workers have represention and consequent loss of jobs).
IF that IS the reality, then not fighting this bullying is going to lead to further tears in the future, if this is NOT the reality, then unions and represention will not matter as everyone will be happy and require no help!
Is this right in your opinion???

[tocamak]

Ballot

Still waiting for the answer to why, if there are 1994 pilots who don't want anything to do with Balpa and only 6 hardcore whingers, are RYR afraid of a ballot?

[Abusing_the_sky]

the overiding anti-union concerns seem to be over fear of management reprisals ( ie closing of bases if workers have represention and consequent loss of jobs).

Can you blame anyone fearing the above?

What's "right" in my opinion is that people (a handful of pilots in this case) who are pro BALPA, should stop being selfish and start thinking seriously about the impact and consequences the BALPA unionization WILL have on other people's lives; CC's, engineers, people on ground duties...

Is it THAT hard to believe it's not just the pilots who will be affected, rosters changed, leave changed, pay changed (you obviously will have to pay up for the "honor" of being a BALPA member) if BALPA gets its way? I thought we were supposed to work as a team... Obviously not the case here!

[oopspff7]

Well said Tocamak.

[The Real Slim Shady]

tocamak

are RYR afraid of a ballot

The company aren't afraid of a ballot: we are having one at EMA, the management welcome it.

90+% don't want BALPA but BALPA won't accept this.

They want a ballot of " the BALPA pilot community": not all of the pilots, just the "BALPA pilot community".

The exact quote is " it would be inappropriate to simply accept your results without further engagement with the BALPA pilot community."

In all of or correspondence with BALPA we simply can't get a straight answer from them: they refuse to accept our ballot results probably because they don't like them.

Is that your concept of democracy and fairness?

We don't want BALPA but they just won't take it on board.

They aren't interested in the pilots welfare: they want to score political points.

That is downright reckless behaviour.

[tocamak]

ballot

they refuse to accept our ballot results

sounds familiar refrain from another equally enlightened part of the world!

More seriously, I would have thought that a ballot would have to be done independent of either party (i.e.through say the electoral reform society) to get a result that could be accepted by all concerned. The ballot would surely have to be open to all possible eligible pilots (not sure of the cross border bit here) and can hardly be done by individual bases; how could STN be a "Balpa"base but EMA not for instance? I still refer to the six whingers amongst the 2000 which would seem to indicate a healthy majority for rejecting Balpa and more recently:-

What's "right" in my opinion is that people (a handful of pilots in this case) who are pro BALPA

[Abusing_the_sky]

tocamak, you failed to quote the whole sentence as i wrote it:

What's "right" in my opinion is that people (a handful of pilots in this case) who are pro BALPA, should stop being selfish and start thinking seriously about the impact and consequences the BALPA unionization WILL have on other people's lives; CC's, engineers, people on ground duties...

Copyright and all that...

and

I thought we were supposed to work as a team...

[The Real Slim Shady]

tocamak

you would have to ask BALPA why they sent 10 individual letters to FR asking for recogition at the 10 individual UK bases.

My perception is that the whole process is politically driven: perhaps they believe that they might have a slight chance of taking a small base in a fractured ballot rather than attempting to garner support globally.

[tocamak]

ATS apologies for being slightly out of context on your quote but what I was still trying to get at is that it seems that the majority, according to you and others, of RYR pilots who would be eligible to vote would reject unionisation as you call it. This being the case why not just have the ballot in a proper manner and then this will be put to bed.

[Abusing_the_sky]

tocamak, as far as i'm concerned, the ballot IS done in a proper manner.
There is a over "i vote for NO BALPA recognition" 90% vote in EMA base.
The votes will be audited by an independent auditor to ensure the legality and truthfulness of them.

Unlike BALPA who out of the blue sends FR letters requesting acknowledgment of union recognition without even consulting and/or informing it's own members!

[The Real Slim Shady]

Incidentally alibaba, your assertions about misleading information are in themselves misleading.

The Employment Act is quite clear: if the 10 per cent test is satisfied the CAC can impose recognition.

If the CAC considers that any 1 of 3 qualifying conditions exist it "may" decide a secret ballot of "union members" be held to establish whether the "union members" want recognition.

[alibaba]

tocamak, as far as i'm concerned, the ballot IS done in a proper manner.

By email with personal addresses and with NO independent body such as the CAC or Electoral Reform Society NOT scrutinising. hmm The people involved were actively badgering people for a response. How will that go down in a CAC hearing? Good luck with the independent scrutiniser as my mate down the pub said he would sign off on it for a fiver. “As far as you are concerned”, that’s ok though because you speak for everyone??? It's a rather arrogant stance is it not?

That’s not a ballot, that is out and out intimidation and I think many people realise that. Kim Jong-il will be proud young one.

False statements and then intimidatory action of colleagues. The CAC will have a say about it i'm sure but what about your colleagues? It's ok though as you obviously don't give a stuff about them.. I just hope for the person who emailed and their family’s sake that a colleague doesn't pursue legal action against such preposterous outrages.

I haven't responded ATS to your post above because I have been patiently waiting for you to answer tocamak's question. There seems for some bizarre reason that you are unwilling or unable to answer the question directly? Why?

It's a ballot of WORKERS not MEMBERS. Hence the said person contacted everyone who are all WORKERS in the base. Your arguing against yourself now..

[Abusing_the_sky]

It's a rather arrogant stance is it not?

if it is, then i learned from the best, i learned from you dear.

False statements and and then intimidatory action of colleagues. The CAC will have a say about it i'm sure but what about your colleagues? It's ok though as you obviously don't give a stuff about them..

I don't give a stuff about my colleagues?? I think it's the other way around my friend; you and your pro BALPA friends still didn't answer my question: who is going to pay for my rent in an European base when i have my house in the Midlands, who is going to do the same for my best pal who is also a CC, who is going to look after the pregnant ladies on G/D as FOR SURE (get a grip dears!) they won't be able to transfer to somewhere else once the base is closed, who is going to pay for the engineers to go abroad and still be able to look after their families day in day out?
And I don't give a stuff about my colleagues???

I haven't responded ATS to your post above because I have been patiently waiting for you to answer tocamak's question. There seems for some bizarre reason that you are unwilling or unable to answer the question directly? Why?

I apologize, i missed that completely. Would you be ever so kind and tell me what the question was?

Your arguing against yourself now..

Doubt it very much. Unlike others i keep a straight line, repeat myself time and time again until some of the thick skulls around here actually get the reality as it is, not as BALPA pictures it (and the future) to be.

I am just a CC voicing my opinions in what i believed (note the past tense emphasis) to be a grown up debate. There have been threats at my address which police will be more than happy to investigate. What's it going to be next if i keep posting? Wait for me in the car park after lates? Buy a Pay as You Go sim card (which of course is untraceable) and bombard my phone with threatening texts? Throw some bricks through my windows?
Get a reality check, will you? This is not the 1920's. Its a free world in many places and free speech is in power.
Like it or not my pro BALPA friend, i will do whatever it takes to fight against BALPA and it damaging my career and job!

Simple as that.

[powdermonkey]

ATS

Can you blame anyone fearing the above?

Of course not! .....
but the point is you should never be in a position where you feel you should make such a statement. Either way, the best of luck to everyone, the dole queue is long, getting longer and there is usually only one hatch open!
Not a fun place to be...

[The Real Slim Shady]

That’s not a ballot, that is out and out intimidation and I think many people realise that.

You know that you are talking complete and utter rubbish. Getting people to vote on their future is intimidation? Telling them that how they vote is down to their own beliefs and conscience, that it matters not whether it is a YES or NO vote so long as they have there say?

Is that more intimidating than BALPA refusing to acknowledge the wishes of the pilots at EMA and forcing a CAC recognition application leaving us no option but to undertake a judicial review if they succeed with recognition?

No,alibaba, you consider it intimidation because you are spineless: you won't stand up and be counted as a BALPA supporter. Scared of losing your job : more chance of that if BALPA get in? Scared that someone might point out the deficiencies in your logic of paying BALPA to royally screw you over?

It's a ballot of WORKERS not MEMBERS

Not according to BALPA: they want to ignore our vote and ""engage with the BALPA pilot community". Ignore the "workers" and deal with the "members".

(1) This paragraph applies if—

(a) the CAC proceeds with an application in accordance with paragraph 20 or 21, and

(b) the CAC is satisfied that a majority of the workers constituting the bargaining unit are members of the union (or unions).

(2) The CAC must issue a declaration that the union is (or unions are) recognised as entitled to conduct collective bargaining on behalf of the workers constituting the bargaining unit.

(3) But if any of the three qualifying conditions is fulfilled, instead of issuing a declaration under sub-paragraph (2) the CAC must give notice to the parties that it intends to arrange for the holding of a secret ballot in which the workers constituting the bargaining unit are asked whether they want the union (or unions) to conduct collective bargaining on their behalf.

(4) These are the three qualifying conditions—

(a) the CAC is satisfied that a ballot should be held in the interests of good industrial relations;

(b) a significant number of the union members within the bargaining unit inform the CAC that they do not want the union (or unions) to conduct collective bargaining on their behalf;

(c) membership evidence is produced which leads the CAC to conclude that there are doubts whether a significant number of the union members within the bargaining unit want the union (or unions) to conduct collective bargaining on their behalf.

So the wishes of the non union workers don't come into the equation here: not that it matters in the final analysis.

BALPA will fail.......again.