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Passing a linecheck as an FO is one thing, passing as a PIC is another... How can you make right decisions when you are not even familiar with the airplane and its perf limitations.
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According to ICAO and JAA with an atpl licence and 1500 hours including Jar/far 25 (jet or Turboprop) you can be a commander of an A380, a350, a340, a330, a320, a310, a300, b747,b767, md11, etc, etc, etc....
If it was unsafe, they would change the rule!!
Can you explain a bit more, because I don't see the relationship 
If it was unsafe, they would change the rule!!
The Captains I flew with in the TP world had a blatant disregard for the MEL, FTLs, the QRH, aircraft limitations, the Ops Manual....the list goes on.......
Seasexsun,
Possible but NOT probable.
They don't need to change the requirements as no one gets a command on longhaul airliner with 1500 hrs total time anyway. Minimum requirements in jet airliner companies are much higher than that.
Why? You gotta learn how to crawl before you can walk.
Show me the airlines that give you a command with 1500 hrs on a Airbus 380 or similar!?
In good times with rapid expanding airlines I'm sure the airlines would use this opportunity to promote people to capt. when reaching minimum requirement.
Why don't EZY, RYR or Emirates or other similar airlines do early promotions with 1500 hrs in order to meet their demand for new capts? I mean if the JAA requirement is 1500 hrs it got to be safe as you claim it?
Possible but NOT probable.
They don't need to change the requirements as no one gets a command on longhaul airliner with 1500 hrs total time anyway. Minimum requirements in jet airliner companies are much higher than that.
Why? You gotta learn how to crawl before you can walk.
Show me the airlines that give you a command with 1500 hrs on a Airbus 380 or similar!?
In good times with rapid expanding airlines I'm sure the airlines would use this opportunity to promote people to capt. when reaching minimum requirement.
Why don't EZY, RYR or Emirates or other similar airlines do early promotions with 1500 hrs in order to meet their demand for new capts? I mean if the JAA requirement is 1500 hrs it got to be safe as you claim it?
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SSS, are you just trying to make a point? There is not one FO in any easyJet-type airline with 1500 hours who considers him/herself ready to run the show. They more than happy with the payrise and the third stripe that come with the ATPL.
or an unexperienced captain ( FO A319)
6 months in the RHS for a TP Captain would be about right before attempting a command course depending on ability.
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They more than happy with the payrise and the third stripe that come with the ATPL.
oh MY GOOOOOOOD! the THIRD stripe!!! This is so important
That's only in england you see those stupid things. in other countries we start with 3 we finish with 4 but, we don't care anyway, the most important is salary and conditions, and in Ryanair and Easyjet there is a lot to improve...
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JAA and ICAO give the MINIMUS that operators can apply. As with your drivers licence you may be legaly entlitled to drive a Bugatti Veyron at 17 but good luck finding a company to insure you. No airline insurance will allow a 1500 hour captain on a large passenger jet and for a good reason.
When you have 40 hours and pass your PPL you think you start to know what flying is about but when you have 100 hours you realize that you knew nothing however now you begin to know what flying is about. This process is repeated at 500, 1000, 2000, etc, etc etc If you have not realized this yet then you are even further behind than you think.
When you have 40 hours and pass your PPL you think you start to know what flying is about but when you have 100 hours you realize that you knew nothing however now you begin to know what flying is about. This process is repeated at 500, 1000, 2000, etc, etc etc If you have not realized this yet then you are even further behind than you think.
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the most important is salary and conditions, and in Ryanair and Easyjet there is a lot to improve...
No company is perfect - however, they are not laying pilots off or making pay cuts?
...and the third stripe is important - its worth Ł10k a year
TJ
seasexsun,
3 stripes belong to England only Not quite, if you look at most national/legacy carriers in the world you will see they start off with 1 or 2 stripes. Even in your beloved Cargolux you start off with 2 stripes ! The great company that gives you an amazing 1% pension and can take your days off away from you as it suits them and with no notice. So much for good T&C 
I happen to know several people from there who left for other airlines including lowcost companies!
Maybe it's time for you to look beyond your Canary islands commuter airliner world as you seem to know very little about bigger jet airlines, especially about RYR and EZY
3 stripes belong to England only
Not quite, if you look at most national/legacy carriers in the world you will see they start off with 1 or 2 stripes. Even in your beloved Cargolux you start off with 2 stripes ! The great company that gives you an amazing 1% pension and can take your days off away from you as it suits them and with no notice. So much for good T&C I happen to know several people from there who left for other airlines including lowcost companies! Maybe it's time for you to look beyond your Canary islands commuter airliner world as you seem to know very little about bigger jet airlines, especially about RYR and EZY
Last edited by The Flying Cokeman; 7th Mar 2009 at 16:42.
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In every spanish, french, italian, portugese airlines you start with 3 stripes. I have never had 2 stripes, only 3, but to be honnest I really don't care.
as for the rest, I will inform you about something you seem to ignore, in PM.
as for the rest, I will inform you about something you seem to ignore, in PM.
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I would like to apologise for unwittingly hijacking this thread - I genuinely did not intend to do so. Nonetheless, an interesting discussion has ensued that is actually quite valuable. With the notable exception of seasexsun, a 'sense of the meeting' has developed as the Quakers would say!
There are clearly variations in the different learning rates and natural talent levels of different pilots. From what I read seasexsun is blessed with an unusual level of ability and skill that I, alas, never possessed. Consequently flying a swept-wing jet is easy and requires little or no past experience to do it safely and well. Indeed, having read his comments I am surprised our managers are not scouring the Job Centres of Europe as we speak, in search of likely lads to fly them at greatly reduced rates. Nonetheless, for the rest of us more limited pilots who do feel the need for experience to improve our skill base, doing the job for a considerable period of time has brought clear benefits.
It seems to me that, despite many aspects of our lives in Western Europe being wrong, there are some things we are doing well at. One of those is aviation and it is good occasionally to reflect on why our accident rate is heading in the right direction. Should we sit back and congratulate ourselves? Absolutely not! Nonetheless we should recognise that the way we do aviation is usually very professional, and a number of the practices we adopt are worth reflecting on by other sections of the wider aviation community. One of those practices is ensuring that our pilots are well-trained and have the necessary skills AND experience to carry out the duties they are asked to perform. I personally like the idea of the Captain at the front of the aircraft I am flying in having substantial experience in the role he is undertakeing - one or two people here do not seem quite as fussy. It appears to have paid significant dividends to numerous highly-respected companies. The fact that other countries outside our sphere of influence do not emulate these practices is their loss - and we should not be embarrassed to say that.
Most sensible people on this forum seem to be agreeing that it is of overall benefit to aviation to ensure that Captains on jets have flown them previously as First Officers -and it is difficult to see any other credible view. Once again, my sincere apologies to the original contributor here who was asking an altogether different question.
There are clearly variations in the different learning rates and natural talent levels of different pilots. From what I read seasexsun is blessed with an unusual level of ability and skill that I, alas, never possessed. Consequently flying a swept-wing jet is easy and requires little or no past experience to do it safely and well. Indeed, having read his comments I am surprised our managers are not scouring the Job Centres of Europe as we speak, in search of likely lads to fly them at greatly reduced rates. Nonetheless, for the rest of us more limited pilots who do feel the need for experience to improve our skill base, doing the job for a considerable period of time has brought clear benefits.
It seems to me that, despite many aspects of our lives in Western Europe being wrong, there are some things we are doing well at. One of those is aviation and it is good occasionally to reflect on why our accident rate is heading in the right direction. Should we sit back and congratulate ourselves? Absolutely not! Nonetheless we should recognise that the way we do aviation is usually very professional, and a number of the practices we adopt are worth reflecting on by other sections of the wider aviation community. One of those practices is ensuring that our pilots are well-trained and have the necessary skills AND experience to carry out the duties they are asked to perform. I personally like the idea of the Captain at the front of the aircraft I am flying in having substantial experience in the role he is undertakeing - one or two people here do not seem quite as fussy. It appears to have paid significant dividends to numerous highly-respected companies. The fact that other countries outside our sphere of influence do not emulate these practices is their loss - and we should not be embarrassed to say that.
Most sensible people on this forum seem to be agreeing that it is of overall benefit to aviation to ensure that Captains on jets have flown them previously as First Officers -and it is difficult to see any other credible view. Once again, my sincere apologies to the original contributor here who was asking an altogether different question.
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In every spanish, french, italian, portugese airlines you start with 3 stripes.
In france you get 2 stripes and the same for spain and other countries.
The only country I know so far were you have only 3 and 4 stripes is germany.
Only FA and Pursers get 1 or 2 stripes there.
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NSF,
On two points I agree. Firstly, we have hijacked the thread. Secondly it is of great benefit to have flown an aircraft from the right seat before moving to the left. However, I believe this has much more to do with assimilating the company culture and seeing the routes and procedures rather than acquiring any form of black art.
I want to again take issue your with your initial answer to Homer J and the suggestion that turbo prop captains moving from to jets would be a "recipe for disaster". I think you would have to admit that this is a somewhat condescending and factually incorrect statement.
My fllying career started in the mid nineties with Air UK. At that time the company was in the process of changing it's career structure from:
FO-Turboprop, FO-jet, Cpt-TP, Cpt-Jet
to
FO-TP, FO-Jet, Cpt-Jet
Consequently, there was a need for captains on the TP which was covered partly by promotions from the fleet and partly by DECs. The last of these made the "disastrous" move from Cpt-TP to Cpt-Jet within KLM in the last few years.
Now, I am working for a Lufthansa partner which traditionally flew turboprops and is now re-equiping with jets. And, guess what, they have taken the "disastrous" step of training the turboprop captains, all of whom, like Homer J have several thousand hours of Q400, to fly the jet equipment. Does anyone seriously expect that the former fleet manager be demoted and fly six months in the right seat!!! And if so, who is he supposed to fly with?
Those are two examples. There are plenty of others. I think it would be good to reflect that there was a flying industry before Easy/Ryan and there continues to be one outside the UK. If you want to believe that only Easyjet know how to fly, that's your prerogative. But it is a somewhat insular view to say the least.
After all it's worth reflecting that a few years ago, the thought of anyone going straight from flying school to a 737 was distant dream. Now, it is considered the standard route.
KT
On two points I agree. Firstly, we have hijacked the thread. Secondly it is of great benefit to have flown an aircraft from the right seat before moving to the left. However, I believe this has much more to do with assimilating the company culture and seeing the routes and procedures rather than acquiring any form of black art.
I want to again take issue your with your initial answer to Homer J and the suggestion that turbo prop captains moving from to jets would be a "recipe for disaster". I think you would have to admit that this is a somewhat condescending and factually incorrect statement.
My fllying career started in the mid nineties with Air UK. At that time the company was in the process of changing it's career structure from:
FO-Turboprop, FO-jet, Cpt-TP, Cpt-Jet
to
FO-TP, FO-Jet, Cpt-Jet
Consequently, there was a need for captains on the TP which was covered partly by promotions from the fleet and partly by DECs. The last of these made the "disastrous" move from Cpt-TP to Cpt-Jet within KLM in the last few years.
Now, I am working for a Lufthansa partner which traditionally flew turboprops and is now re-equiping with jets. And, guess what, they have taken the "disastrous" step of training the turboprop captains, all of whom, like Homer J have several thousand hours of Q400, to fly the jet equipment. Does anyone seriously expect that the former fleet manager be demoted and fly six months in the right seat!!! And if so, who is he supposed to fly with?
Those are two examples. There are plenty of others. I think it would be good to reflect that there was a flying industry before Easy/Ryan and there continues to be one outside the UK. If you want to believe that only Easyjet know how to fly, that's your prerogative. But it is a somewhat insular view to say the least.
After all it's worth reflecting that a few years ago, the thought of anyone going straight from flying school to a 737 was distant dream. Now, it is considered the standard route.
KT
Last edited by Knee Trembler; 7th Mar 2009 at 20:52.
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If you want to believe that only Easyjet know how to fly, that's your prerogative.
After all it's worth reflecting that a few years ago, the thought of anyone going straight from flying school to a 737 was distant dream. Now, it is considered the standard route.
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Knee Trembler - The problem of a discussion that has developped here is that every Alpha Male on the planet feels insulted and has to justify his own place and experience. It is therefore almost impossible to have a rational discussion on this issue whithout it turning into a rather pathetic slanging match. I will, however, try to answer as best I can.
I do not agree with you that my remarks are condescending - if you have taken offence then that is your issue rather than mine. Just to define my terms - by 'jet' I mean specifically a medium jet and above - ie 737/A320-series type aircraft or larger. I do not include small jets like Embraers etc as the same problems arise. Also, I would ask you not to put words in my mouth. At no point did I say or imply that easyJet and Ryanair were the only companies who know how to fly - I do not mind you disagreeing with what I said, but I do not appreciate being berated for some offence that only took place in your own mind. I totally agree, however, that company culture plus knowledge of routes and procedures are key factors. Those factors are, however, inextricably linked with coming onto jet operations and form part of my argument - you tend to go further afield, thus bringing a whole host of new problems that require experience to handle correctly. My point is just that - jet handling is different, as is just about every aspect of the operation that turboprop pilots have left behind. The last thing a pilot needs when every single part of his professional life has changed is the burden of command, which he is ill-equipped to handle at that stage. I stand by my view, therefore that to go from being a captain on a turboprop to a medium jet is a recipe for disaster. I could give countless specific examples to back my view, but that would not be appropriate here. If experience in role was not required you could go down the Job Centre and train up people for a fraction of the price. That does not mean that every ex-turboprop captain would make a terrible captain on a jet. It means they need the appropriate experience on jets, prior to becoming captains in order that they have that vital mix of knowledge, skill and experience. It also means recognising that an enormous amount has still be to learnt that can never be fully picked up on line training. As has rightly been pointed-out, some turboprop captains would do well - for what it is worth I would not have been one of them, even though I was foolish enough at the time to think I would. What undoubtedly is true, however, is that you are significantly increasing the risk of something going wrong. As we all know, there is an element of luck here - it does rather depend on the particular situation you come up against. If experience did not matter then ours would be a simple job that any fool could do. Experience is absolutely critical in any flying job and that is best obtained in the RHS under the ultimate command of someone who has trodden the exact same path before you.
I remember when I was a turboprop Training Captain awaiting my first jet job. I bumped into an ex-Britannia 767 captain who was over 60 and seeing out his time on turboprops - a common practice then. He said something I will never forget. He said that I should not be in a rush to get a jet command as although some people have done so in short order, they were 'vulnerable' to making a big error. That has been my personal experience and my observation of other people has endorsed that view. Being the Captain of a jet aircraft is a demanding job that carries enormous responsibility - it requires a combination of knowledge, skill and experience. If any one of those 3 elements is missing then problems will ensue. Sure, it depends on what the individual captain faces on the day, but by diluting experience you are opening the door to trouble. 'Vulnerability' is the key - one of the key ways of reducing vulnerability is to have experience.
As a little aside, if you join NetJets with 10,000 hours including command on Boeings and Airbuses - where will you go? Guess what - the RHS. Why is that? It is because the whole nature of the operation is so different to anything that has gone before, it is deemed safer by people who have been at that line of work a long time to get experience in the RHS. Is that grounds for the ex-747 captain to take offence - absolutely not! It is grounds for the ex-747 captain to rejoice that his new company have seen fit to ensure that he is adequately prepared to take-on the responsibities his new role will demand when he eventually becomes a Captain again.
I do not agree with you that my remarks are condescending - if you have taken offence then that is your issue rather than mine. Just to define my terms - by 'jet' I mean specifically a medium jet and above - ie 737/A320-series type aircraft or larger. I do not include small jets like Embraers etc as the same problems arise. Also, I would ask you not to put words in my mouth. At no point did I say or imply that easyJet and Ryanair were the only companies who know how to fly - I do not mind you disagreeing with what I said, but I do not appreciate being berated for some offence that only took place in your own mind. I totally agree, however, that company culture plus knowledge of routes and procedures are key factors. Those factors are, however, inextricably linked with coming onto jet operations and form part of my argument - you tend to go further afield, thus bringing a whole host of new problems that require experience to handle correctly. My point is just that - jet handling is different, as is just about every aspect of the operation that turboprop pilots have left behind. The last thing a pilot needs when every single part of his professional life has changed is the burden of command, which he is ill-equipped to handle at that stage. I stand by my view, therefore that to go from being a captain on a turboprop to a medium jet is a recipe for disaster. I could give countless specific examples to back my view, but that would not be appropriate here. If experience in role was not required you could go down the Job Centre and train up people for a fraction of the price. That does not mean that every ex-turboprop captain would make a terrible captain on a jet. It means they need the appropriate experience on jets, prior to becoming captains in order that they have that vital mix of knowledge, skill and experience. It also means recognising that an enormous amount has still be to learnt that can never be fully picked up on line training. As has rightly been pointed-out, some turboprop captains would do well - for what it is worth I would not have been one of them, even though I was foolish enough at the time to think I would. What undoubtedly is true, however, is that you are significantly increasing the risk of something going wrong. As we all know, there is an element of luck here - it does rather depend on the particular situation you come up against. If experience did not matter then ours would be a simple job that any fool could do. Experience is absolutely critical in any flying job and that is best obtained in the RHS under the ultimate command of someone who has trodden the exact same path before you.
I remember when I was a turboprop Training Captain awaiting my first jet job. I bumped into an ex-Britannia 767 captain who was over 60 and seeing out his time on turboprops - a common practice then. He said something I will never forget. He said that I should not be in a rush to get a jet command as although some people have done so in short order, they were 'vulnerable' to making a big error. That has been my personal experience and my observation of other people has endorsed that view. Being the Captain of a jet aircraft is a demanding job that carries enormous responsibility - it requires a combination of knowledge, skill and experience. If any one of those 3 elements is missing then problems will ensue. Sure, it depends on what the individual captain faces on the day, but by diluting experience you are opening the door to trouble. 'Vulnerability' is the key - one of the key ways of reducing vulnerability is to have experience.
As a little aside, if you join NetJets with 10,000 hours including command on Boeings and Airbuses - where will you go? Guess what - the RHS. Why is that? It is because the whole nature of the operation is so different to anything that has gone before, it is deemed safer by people who have been at that line of work a long time to get experience in the RHS. Is that grounds for the ex-747 captain to take offence - absolutely not! It is grounds for the ex-747 captain to rejoice that his new company have seen fit to ensure that he is adequately prepared to take-on the responsibities his new role will demand when he eventually becomes a Captain again.