Brookfield working practices, conditions, and Contracts
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Wally,
I fully understand your thinking, however the fact remains that the pilots will be working for one UK based employer (Brookfield). The Irish Limited company fiasco is a dishonest and false employment status, purely intended to buck the system, at the end of the day it is still one individual working for one UK employer. Also, there is a two way termination notice period in the contract, which is not allowed if one is to be IR35 compliant. Heading off to the Irish tax system to avoid IR35 is tax evasion and if the majority of UK residents/employees did that our country would go bankrupt, that is why such rules exist, to protect our country.
My friend's father has made these issues very clear to us and this investigation is escalating rapidly. I have no idea when they will make their move to the offices of Brookfield, but you can be sure that after they do things will change dramatically. Trouble is we could all be out of work.
As an aside, have you seen the new increased Irish taxes, OUCH!
Cadet
I fully understand your thinking, however the fact remains that the pilots will be working for one UK based employer (Brookfield). The Irish Limited company fiasco is a dishonest and false employment status, purely intended to buck the system, at the end of the day it is still one individual working for one UK employer. Also, there is a two way termination notice period in the contract, which is not allowed if one is to be IR35 compliant. Heading off to the Irish tax system to avoid IR35 is tax evasion and if the majority of UK residents/employees did that our country would go bankrupt, that is why such rules exist, to protect our country.
My friend's father has made these issues very clear to us and this investigation is escalating rapidly. I have no idea when they will make their move to the offices of Brookfield, but you can be sure that after they do things will change dramatically. Trouble is we could all be out of work.
As an aside, have you seen the new increased Irish taxes, OUCH!
Cadet
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Cadet,
That all makes sense, all I can do in response is to remind you (and me!) that some of my views are personal, and consequently will not appeal to everyone.
Historically, people on Brookfield contracts have been doing all sorts of funky tax things, up to and including not paying tax or declaring residency anywhere. The new system ensures that we will all pay full PAYE in Ireland, closing many of the historical legal and illegal loopholes that have been exploited. I personally think this is a good thing from a social responsibility perspective, although it will cost me dearly compared to the old contract. I believe this is called putting my money where my mouth is, and it is a new experience for me.........
Your point about all monies going to the Irish revenue is valid, but in putting together double taxation treaties between countries, it is fair to assume there will be a balance struck between non-nationals paying tax in-country vs nationals paying tax abroad, and my guess today would be that there are plenty of Irish people paying income tax in the UK and elsewhere, which is now balanced by us paying tax in Ireland.
I do not agree with your assertion that we work for Brookfield. If anything we work for RYR, but given their decision to work with a contractor model they use Brookfields. The relationship is certainly close and involves much smoke and many mirrors, but I would stop well short of considering my position as Brookfield employment.
My bottom line is this - I think Brookfield have decided to use a hammer to crack a nut - the nut being the shoddy compliance of many of it's contract pilots - the hammer being the mandate to use one of 3 accountants to ensure Irish revenue compliance. I know my views don't meet with everyone's approval or agreement, but I for one agree their actions are both measured and appropriate under the circumstances.
Wally.
That all makes sense, all I can do in response is to remind you (and me!) that some of my views are personal, and consequently will not appeal to everyone.
Historically, people on Brookfield contracts have been doing all sorts of funky tax things, up to and including not paying tax or declaring residency anywhere. The new system ensures that we will all pay full PAYE in Ireland, closing many of the historical legal and illegal loopholes that have been exploited. I personally think this is a good thing from a social responsibility perspective, although it will cost me dearly compared to the old contract. I believe this is called putting my money where my mouth is, and it is a new experience for me.........
Your point about all monies going to the Irish revenue is valid, but in putting together double taxation treaties between countries, it is fair to assume there will be a balance struck between non-nationals paying tax in-country vs nationals paying tax abroad, and my guess today would be that there are plenty of Irish people paying income tax in the UK and elsewhere, which is now balanced by us paying tax in Ireland.
I do not agree with your assertion that we work for Brookfield. If anything we work for RYR, but given their decision to work with a contractor model they use Brookfields. The relationship is certainly close and involves much smoke and many mirrors, but I would stop well short of considering my position as Brookfield employment.
My bottom line is this - I think Brookfield have decided to use a hammer to crack a nut - the nut being the shoddy compliance of many of it's contract pilots - the hammer being the mandate to use one of 3 accountants to ensure Irish revenue compliance. I know my views don't meet with everyone's approval or agreement, but I for one agree their actions are both measured and appropriate under the circumstances.
Wally.
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Wally,
You post very logical opinions.
Like you I have no problem at all with paying my taxes, what I do have great issue with is being dictated to with regard to which country I pay them in. Irish taxes are very high and will get higher in an attempt by the Irish Government to claw back their sick economy at the expense of the average tax payer.
"I personally think this is a good thing from a social responsibility perspective, although it will cost me dearly compared to the old contract."
Agreed, but if Brookfield/Ryanair had genuine concerns about "employees" paying their taxes they would do the real decent thing and put all staff on the books and face up to the legitimate and normal overheads associated with running a business. This scheme has not been put in place because they are ethical, it only exists because the various authorities are on their case and its their last attempt at clinging on to the "self employed" unfair financial advantage that they have against their competitors.
I assure you that the UK tax authorities are going to stop this scam for UK pilots, I have no idea of that timescale though.
Cadet
You post very logical opinions.
Like you I have no problem at all with paying my taxes, what I do have great issue with is being dictated to with regard to which country I pay them in. Irish taxes are very high and will get higher in an attempt by the Irish Government to claw back their sick economy at the expense of the average tax payer.
"I personally think this is a good thing from a social responsibility perspective, although it will cost me dearly compared to the old contract."
Agreed, but if Brookfield/Ryanair had genuine concerns about "employees" paying their taxes they would do the real decent thing and put all staff on the books and face up to the legitimate and normal overheads associated with running a business. This scheme has not been put in place because they are ethical, it only exists because the various authorities are on their case and its their last attempt at clinging on to the "self employed" unfair financial advantage that they have against their competitors.
I assure you that the UK tax authorities are going to stop this scam for UK pilots, I have no idea of that timescale though.
Cadet
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Guys,
I still struggle to follow this argument to conclusion. Plenty of my IT friends will take contracts for foreign organisations, or multi-nationals operating abroad, and part of the contract stipulation will be to use a local payroll company and to pay tax locally, despite the fact they maintain UK dominciliation.
For this post I will not express any opinions on the rights and wrongs, but I will say that neither RYR, or Brookfield are doing anything new, creative or unprecedented in this matter. Based on that, the rumblings of UK revenue intervention do not logically follow, this is a widespread and long established m/o in the commercial world.
Wally
I still struggle to follow this argument to conclusion. Plenty of my IT friends will take contracts for foreign organisations, or multi-nationals operating abroad, and part of the contract stipulation will be to use a local payroll company and to pay tax locally, despite the fact they maintain UK dominciliation.
For this post I will not express any opinions on the rights and wrongs, but I will say that neither RYR, or Brookfield are doing anything new, creative or unprecedented in this matter. Based on that, the rumblings of UK revenue intervention do not logically follow, this is a widespread and long established m/o in the commercial world.
Wally
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Wally,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would assume that your colleagues were neither forced to pay their taxes overseas nor forced to use one of three firms of accountants, all of whom will charge a substantial 3% of gross earnings :-(
Cadet.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would assume that your colleagues were neither forced to pay their taxes overseas nor forced to use one of three firms of accountants, all of whom will charge a substantial 3% of gross earnings :-(
Cadet.
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part of the contract stipulation will be to use a local payroll company and to pay tax locally.
Your second question needs a little more thought - no offence intended. We are mandated, by contract, to set up shop in Ireland. You will note in the contract that we are not mandated to use one of the three accountancy firms, despite the several posters on this forum that seem to think that we are! Brookfield could do no more than strongly suggest that we go with their recommendations, and I have not had any correspondence from them that goes beyond this. It certainly could not, and does not, form part of our contract.
It's all a bit of a minefield!!
Wally.
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Thanks Wally for clearing that up!
I have no problem with paying my taxes in Ireland. Coming from a country that has the second highest taxes in the world it can't be worse
The problem as Cadet said was that we where forced to use on of the three firms and to form a company together with three other pilots.
I have no problem with paying my taxes in Ireland. Coming from a country that has the second highest taxes in the world it can't be worse
The problem as Cadet said was that we where forced to use on of the three firms and to form a company together with three other pilots.
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Swinglow,
A kindred spirit! The relief........
I have only a sketchy understanding of the roles and responsibilities of a company Director, but I know enough to realise that it is a position with a degree of personal exposure (and rightly so).
If we are forced to establish companies with an Irish national and 2,3 or 4 other Directors, who we will never meet, I am completely stuck on the implications. I have asked all three firms what would happen if one of the others did something unethical, for example signing a contract with another Irish company to supply goods and services without the knowledge of either the accountants or other Directors. The next day that person falls under a bus (or into a turbine), what happens?
I can answer this from a UK perspective - which is that the other Directors are liable for the contract signed by the first. The problem is that the UK law is about as much use as a chocolate teapot in this case as Ireland is Ireland. The really scary thing about this scenario is that when you ask the nominated accountants the question you get a stumble, a stutter and a silence.
What this thread really needs is an Irish commercial lawyer.
Wally.
A kindred spirit! The relief........
I have only a sketchy understanding of the roles and responsibilities of a company Director, but I know enough to realise that it is a position with a degree of personal exposure (and rightly so).
If we are forced to establish companies with an Irish national and 2,3 or 4 other Directors, who we will never meet, I am completely stuck on the implications. I have asked all three firms what would happen if one of the others did something unethical, for example signing a contract with another Irish company to supply goods and services without the knowledge of either the accountants or other Directors. The next day that person falls under a bus (or into a turbine), what happens?
I can answer this from a UK perspective - which is that the other Directors are liable for the contract signed by the first. The problem is that the UK law is about as much use as a chocolate teapot in this case as Ireland is Ireland. The really scary thing about this scenario is that when you ask the nominated accountants the question you get a stumble, a stutter and a silence.
What this thread really needs is an Irish commercial lawyer.
Wally.
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What a scary thought.
Don't dismiss this without a little thought! The responsibility could fall straight back to Brookfield as they were the ones who forced this upon us.
Cadet
Don't dismiss this without a little thought! The responsibility could fall straight back to Brookfield as they were the ones who forced this upon us.
Cadet
Last edited by Cadet Pilot UK; 8th May 2009 at 10:53.
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Swinglow,
That would be nice but please realise that any reciprocating tax agreements between counties does not absolve the individual tax payer from paying the higher rate, your country will ask for the difference due to them each tax year. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but its always better to know in advance.
My friend's father has told him that the visit will probably be within the next two months, so nothing going to happen quickly. He also says that there are some European Human Rights issues with the contract as we are being forced to pay our taxes overseas through a Limited Company that we don't wish to get involved with and with three other people whom we don't know.
Quite sad, but my friend through his father's advice is now considering a complete change of career, having come thus far and invested so much time and money. His father is not happy with the way he is being treated and in very concerned about the long term outlook for the quality of this profession. He obviously has deep concerns about potential reprocussions concerning the legalities of the way this whole affair is set up. I think that he may be cutting his losses and going back to Uni, a good person lost from this profession if he does!
I have no problem with paying my taxes in Ireland. Coming from a country that has the second highest taxes in the world it can't be worse
My friend's father has told him that the visit will probably be within the next two months, so nothing going to happen quickly. He also says that there are some European Human Rights issues with the contract as we are being forced to pay our taxes overseas through a Limited Company that we don't wish to get involved with and with three other people whom we don't know.
Quite sad, but my friend through his father's advice is now considering a complete change of career, having come thus far and invested so much time and money. His father is not happy with the way he is being treated and in very concerned about the long term outlook for the quality of this profession. He obviously has deep concerns about potential reprocussions concerning the legalities of the way this whole affair is set up. I think that he may be cutting his losses and going back to Uni, a good person lost from this profession if he does!
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WallyWumpus you are correct in what you say and the situation in Ireland is legally much the same as in the UK I understand it. As you say
- in other words proper advice.
I understand that IALPA have got some kind of formal legal or accountancy opinion which is in writing. They say that any BRK contractor can go to IALPA and read it (you don't have to be a member). A friend has told me that it confirms a lot of the concerns which many have already expressed, including the fact that everyone is responsibles for the actions of their fellow directors. I don't know if it is in the document, but it even appears (for example) that if an unhappy partner has a beef with somebody who is a Director (and partner) they could sue the company to protect their fiancial interests. All of the partners would then be responsible for the legal fees associated with extracting themselves from the consequences! And so on.
This is one proposal that has all the signs of being "clever on the hoof", but hoplessly flawed when it comes to the practice.
What this thread really needs is an Irish commercial lawyer.
I understand that IALPA have got some kind of formal legal or accountancy opinion which is in writing. They say that any BRK contractor can go to IALPA and read it (you don't have to be a member). A friend has told me that it confirms a lot of the concerns which many have already expressed, including the fact that everyone is responsibles for the actions of their fellow directors. I don't know if it is in the document, but it even appears (for example) that if an unhappy partner has a beef with somebody who is a Director (and partner) they could sue the company to protect their fiancial interests. All of the partners would then be responsible for the legal fees associated with extracting themselves from the consequences! And so on.
This is one proposal that has all the signs of being "clever on the hoof", but hoplessly flawed when it comes to the practice.
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Hello all,
Is 3% really that bad? I did some maths and discovered that its actullay cheaper than some other companies. They only charge when you ACTUALLY EARN, so having signed up you pay nothing untill you get your first paycheck.
Also this banding about having to pay 300 euro a month is rubbish, in order to pay that you must be taking in 10,000/month and how often is that going to be for cadets??
I worked out that you will pay approx 900 euro for the first year and on average 81euro per month for the first year. The most important thing is that you will not pay anything when you have your month off.
As an example another company that I approached recently quoted 150 euro/month to do the same thing which is for a full 12 months.....
Regards
Nick
Is 3% really that bad? I did some maths and discovered that its actullay cheaper than some other companies. They only charge when you ACTUALLY EARN, so having signed up you pay nothing untill you get your first paycheck.
Also this banding about having to pay 300 euro a month is rubbish, in order to pay that you must be taking in 10,000/month and how often is that going to be for cadets??
I worked out that you will pay approx 900 euro for the first year and on average 81euro per month for the first year. The most important thing is that you will not pay anything when you have your month off.
As an example another company that I approached recently quoted 150 euro/month to do the same thing which is for a full 12 months.....
Regards
Nick
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- No job security.
- No sick pay.
- No holiday pay.
- No employment rights.
- High Irish taxation system.
- Forced into a Ltd. company with three unknown people.
- No regard for pilot welfare whatsoever.
- No base allocation until end of line training.
- Very poor salary.
- Expensive type rating.
- Pay for own uniform.
- Pay for security pass.
- Pay for car park pass.
- Pay for sim recurrent training.
- Pay for just about everything.
What does all this mean?....Pilots will vote with their feet as soon as the market changes and the tide will then turn for MOL/DD.
- No sick pay.
- No holiday pay.
- No employment rights.
- High Irish taxation system.
- Forced into a Ltd. company with three unknown people.
- No regard for pilot welfare whatsoever.
- No base allocation until end of line training.
- Very poor salary.
- Expensive type rating.
- Pay for own uniform.
- Pay for security pass.
- Pay for car park pass.
- Pay for sim recurrent training.
- Pay for just about everything.
What does all this mean?....Pilots will vote with their feet as soon as the market changes and the tide will then turn for MOL/DD.
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That indeed is true nick14, 3% is less than other companies charge. But who told you that this will cover everything? It certainly is NOT in writing (because nothing is). The real question is: if this "approved!?!" scheme goes wrong who is responsible for paying back tax? The consensus appears to be that it will be the pilot, even if the arrangement and the advice turns out to have been incorrect.
If somebody said "fixed charge 3% and you are indemnified against any future tax costs caused by some aspect of the scheme turning out to be unacceptable to the taxman" - then it would possibly be worth looking at. At the moment, as with so many things Ryanair, you have to step into the firing line and hope that your expectations turn out to be correct (and how many will tell you that that such assumptions are unwise?).
And what happens next year when you have signed up and they then announce that it has turned out to be more expensive to run than expected so the charge is going up to 4.5%? You won't be able to do tiddly squat. Nothing ever changes.
If somebody said "fixed charge 3% and you are indemnified against any future tax costs caused by some aspect of the scheme turning out to be unacceptable to the taxman" - then it would possibly be worth looking at. At the moment, as with so many things Ryanair, you have to step into the firing line and hope that your expectations turn out to be correct (and how many will tell you that that such assumptions are unwise?).
And what happens next year when you have signed up and they then announce that it has turned out to be more expensive to run than expected so the charge is going up to 4.5%? You won't be able to do tiddly squat. Nothing ever changes.
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But is this creating a company with 3 unkown others definately the ONLY choice? I have no contract or FAQ's, so I can only ask. Do they actually say that you MUST set up a company with these people and one of their accountants, or is this what they just advise?
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Lexico,
It's mandatory and all part of the Brookfield dictatorship methods. Mao Si Tung and Hitler would both have been very proud of DD!
This is going to end in tears, we can't all be wrong. I think that DD generally underestimates the intelligence of the average pilot.
Cadet
It's mandatory and all part of the Brookfield dictatorship methods. Mao Si Tung and Hitler would both have been very proud of DD!
This is going to end in tears, we can't all be wrong. I think that DD generally underestimates the intelligence of the average pilot.
Cadet
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They could have enforced this on us instead:
JMK Group UK - Maximising the income of contract workers throughout the UK
Would have been much fairer and safer, but DD probably wouldn't have got his kickback as their not Paddys ;-)
I wonder if he's getting a kickback for reducing the hourly rate for us pilots too?
GOD IT REALLY STINKS!
JMK Group UK - Maximising the income of contract workers throughout the UK
Would have been much fairer and safer, but DD probably wouldn't have got his kickback as their not Paddys ;-)
I wonder if he's getting a kickback for reducing the hourly rate for us pilots too?
GOD IT REALLY STINKS!
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Cadet,
I believe thats only true if you remain a resident in your home country. But I think that the country you spend more the 185(?) days in counts as the permanent home.
So for exampel if Im based in Spain and spend more the 185 days there I will pay taxes first in Ireland and then Spain will ask for the difference.
This is just what I think and may very well be wrong since my knowledge in European tax laws isn't "top notch"
But I think Lexico is asking the most important question! To form a company together with people you don't know at all in which you yourself can be held accountable for their actions is at least to me quite frightening!
Code:
That would be nice but please realise that any reciprocating tax agreements between counties does not absolve the individual tax payer from paying the higher rate, your country will ask for the difference due to them each tax year. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but its always better to know in advance.
So for exampel if Im based in Spain and spend more the 185 days there I will pay taxes first in Ireland and then Spain will ask for the difference.
This is just what I think and may very well be wrong since my knowledge in European tax laws isn't "top notch"
But I think Lexico is asking the most important question! To form a company together with people you don't know at all in which you yourself can be held accountable for their actions is at least to me quite frightening!
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Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Good Grief. Could you be any stupider? These structures that have been created and favourably ruled upon by the Revenue Commissioners are such that FO's who join the scheme will be liable for ZERO % PRSI contributions. That's right, ZERO %. The company you're referring to has invested an enormous amount of time and energy to ensure one outcome, and one outcome alone. To maximise your earnings by minimising your tax liabilities.
Who was it that said if you give a pilot a brick of solid gold, he's whine about the inconvenience of its weight?
Cadet Pilot, you have a lot to say for one so new, but writing from a point of complete ignorance does you no favours. If you really are a cadet, might I suggest focussing on the positive for a moment or two? Your whinging is reminiscent of the bitter and twisted, and though there's no shortage of them in leafy outer reaches of Essex, you'd do well to remember that angry young men invariably become angry old men.
Is that the future you aspire to for yourself?
Who was it that said if you give a pilot a brick of solid gold, he's whine about the inconvenience of its weight?
Cadet Pilot, you have a lot to say for one so new, but writing from a point of complete ignorance does you no favours. If you really are a cadet, might I suggest focussing on the positive for a moment or two? Your whinging is reminiscent of the bitter and twisted, and though there's no shortage of them in leafy outer reaches of Essex, you'd do well to remember that angry young men invariably become angry old men.
Is that the future you aspire to for yourself?
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The 3% charge is also an expense and so is actually reduced after the tax re-work. Also, please don't moan about Ryanair, especially if you are currently in paid flying work. It doesn't help anyone. Post facts please, this way we all benefit. We don't get anything out of hearing how bad you think the industry is.