Brookfield working practices, conditions, and Contracts
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I cant stress this enough
Having looked into this,all i can say is the 'admin' fee every month is outrageous,VAT fees also.Im sure these firms earn nice interest on monies hitting there account from BRK before they 'sort it all out' and then give monies to you.
Vague information all round really.Charge max for min service is the order of the day here.These guys are NOT experienced in dealing with pilots.Advice about what you can and cant claim for is non existent
I dont know for sure,but as iv said golden handshakes to BRK i think,for the increase in business
Having looked into this,all i can say is the 'admin' fee every month is outrageous,VAT fees also.Im sure these firms earn nice interest on monies hitting there account from BRK before they 'sort it all out' and then give monies to you.
Vague information all round really.Charge max for min service is the order of the day here.These guys are NOT experienced in dealing with pilots.Advice about what you can and cant claim for is non existent
I dont know for sure,but as iv said golden handshakes to BRK i think,for the increase in business
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Whistle Blower:
You say that a pilot who works for no-one else but BRK, and is not allowed to by contract, is therefore in fact an employee of BRK. I agree and seems clear enough. I have worked for companies that used the 11 month rule. You were employed for 11 months, then layed off, no pay, for 1 month and re-hired. OK it was 15 years ago and EU rules might have changed. The big difference was you were employed and all taxes paid etc. In your month off you were free to do as you wished. You were not self=employed. You earned holiday during the 11 months and could take it in that period, or start your month off early.
Now, about this 'month off' imposed by BRK. It seems they are restricting your right to work, which as a self-employed indiviual in the EU, is against the rules. What is your suggestion to those snarled in this trap? It does seem as if much of their contract is worthless, but no doubt if you resist you will find there is no work offerd.
Is this contractual obligation about being a LTD company paying contributions to Ireland and using these cartel accountants also an imposition on non-UK based pilots? If not perhaps it is because they know those pilots are outside the gaze of the UKIR. Hm?
You started the thread to try and highlight apparent dubious tactics by BRK. Highlighting a problem is easy, offering solutions is more difficult but necessary to make the whole process constructive.
You say that a pilot who works for no-one else but BRK, and is not allowed to by contract, is therefore in fact an employee of BRK. I agree and seems clear enough. I have worked for companies that used the 11 month rule. You were employed for 11 months, then layed off, no pay, for 1 month and re-hired. OK it was 15 years ago and EU rules might have changed. The big difference was you were employed and all taxes paid etc. In your month off you were free to do as you wished. You were not self=employed. You earned holiday during the 11 months and could take it in that period, or start your month off early.
Now, about this 'month off' imposed by BRK. It seems they are restricting your right to work, which as a self-employed indiviual in the EU, is against the rules. What is your suggestion to those snarled in this trap? It does seem as if much of their contract is worthless, but no doubt if you resist you will find there is no work offerd.
Is this contractual obligation about being a LTD company paying contributions to Ireland and using these cartel accountants also an imposition on non-UK based pilots? If not perhaps it is because they know those pilots are outside the gaze of the UKIR. Hm?
You started the thread to try and highlight apparent dubious tactics by BRK. Highlighting a problem is easy, offering solutions is more difficult but necessary to make the whole process constructive.
Person Of Interest
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Hello Whistleblower:
You are correct, I have not worked for FR, but aren't we all in this business because we love to fly?
If you are so upset with Brookfield, why not take your skills and wisdom elsewhere...or don't you have the ability or qualifications to do so...please add some details to your profile to qualify your comments and Brookfield bashing...
Also, if it is bad as you say, Brookfield is not the culprit...FR is...so direct your venom where it belongs...
You are correct, I have not worked for FR, but aren't we all in this business because we love to fly?
If you are so upset with Brookfield, why not take your skills and wisdom elsewhere...or don't you have the ability or qualifications to do so...please add some details to your profile to qualify your comments and Brookfield bashing...
Also, if it is bad as you say, Brookfield is not the culprit...FR is...so direct your venom where it belongs...
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The main problem at Brookfield is Declan Dooney.
I know not of any other person that is as difficult to deal with as this man. He lies and continuously fails to deliver on promises, but then what can you expect from someone who has come from the 'Ryanair School of Management'.
It is impossible to get an answer for anything, from anyone in the office, without it being passed through 'The GateKeeper' first.
I have no doubts that like you have said before, Brookfield were a pleasure to deal with on other contracts that were nothing to do with Ryanair.
The main and only solution to make sure that you are working within the rules of HMRC is to contact them. Be open and honest with them and they will help you and give you free advice. They run free events for people who are self employed and Ltd companies, and they will explain everything you need or want to know.
If you go to them and ask for help, and they see that you have not been operating quite as you should have, you will find they will help you to correct mistakes and will not take action against you. On the other hand, should you go it alone and make mistakes, submit incorrect information, you can end up in a whole world of problems.
My advice is make an appointment to see a Tax Inspector at your local Tax Office, and they will tell you everything you NEED to know, and believe me, it won't be anything like what Brookfield say it should be.
The other thing I suggest, is join BALPA or similar organisation in your country. They will offer free and impartial advice, and explain exactly what is going on from their's and other's passed experience. They also have access to employment lawers and information that would cost huge amounts if you were to do it by yourself.
And with regards to Balpa, if you are still training, then it is free to join and no membership costs. Once you are qualified with the licence in your hand, £24 Per Year!! Don't foget, you don't start earning until you have completed base training, and even then it is only 0.5% of your gross salary. When you think about it, this is less then £200 for a GROSS salary of £40,000. FO at Ryanair doesn't earn that because sector pay is not included. And you can claim tax relief on that as well!! There really is no reason to not join, if only for the legal protection they offer you as a pilot.
www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
Brookfield Pilots can show support too. Please do because as you can see by the post stating the NEW PAY RATES, the reduction in Brookfield Pilot pay has started.
I know not of any other person that is as difficult to deal with as this man. He lies and continuously fails to deliver on promises, but then what can you expect from someone who has come from the 'Ryanair School of Management'.
It is impossible to get an answer for anything, from anyone in the office, without it being passed through 'The GateKeeper' first.
I have no doubts that like you have said before, Brookfield were a pleasure to deal with on other contracts that were nothing to do with Ryanair.
The main and only solution to make sure that you are working within the rules of HMRC is to contact them. Be open and honest with them and they will help you and give you free advice. They run free events for people who are self employed and Ltd companies, and they will explain everything you need or want to know.
If you go to them and ask for help, and they see that you have not been operating quite as you should have, you will find they will help you to correct mistakes and will not take action against you. On the other hand, should you go it alone and make mistakes, submit incorrect information, you can end up in a whole world of problems.
My advice is make an appointment to see a Tax Inspector at your local Tax Office, and they will tell you everything you NEED to know, and believe me, it won't be anything like what Brookfield say it should be.
The other thing I suggest, is join BALPA or similar organisation in your country. They will offer free and impartial advice, and explain exactly what is going on from their's and other's passed experience. They also have access to employment lawers and information that would cost huge amounts if you were to do it by yourself.
And with regards to Balpa, if you are still training, then it is free to join and no membership costs. Once you are qualified with the licence in your hand, £24 Per Year!! Don't foget, you don't start earning until you have completed base training, and even then it is only 0.5% of your gross salary. When you think about it, this is less then £200 for a GROSS salary of £40,000. FO at Ryanair doesn't earn that because sector pay is not included. And you can claim tax relief on that as well!! There really is no reason to not join, if only for the legal protection they offer you as a pilot.
www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
Brookfield Pilots can show support too. Please do because as you can see by the post stating the NEW PAY RATES, the reduction in Brookfield Pilot pay has started.
Last edited by Whitstle_Blower; 16th Apr 2009 at 12:28.
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Wow, interesting thread. Glad I am not employed that way.
Could I hazard a guess though whistle_blower, that, unless your petition is organised through an organization called BALAP, your link might not work?
Good luck with your petition though
Could I hazard a guess though whistle_blower, that, unless your petition is organised through an organization called BALAP, your link might not work?
Good luck with your petition though
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An employee work under a contract of services and a self employed contractor works under a contract for services. The posts are correct in that to all purposes the brookfield pilots are employees of brookfield and to a greater extent ryanair.
However most economies grow using a flexible work force which is where contractors come in. In Ireland contracting is acceptable and most of the large multinationals such as Intel and Wyeth who employ thousands of people use a significant number of contactors. The Dublin Airport Authority even uses them.
In the UK IR35 was brought in becuase of IT consultants who were taking the mickey in relation to the expenses they were claiming and the small amount of tax they were paying dispite the fact that they were creaming it in the pre 2000 "milenium bug" days. As a result the amount of expenses that a contractor can claim are restricted.
Brookfield are insisting on a limited company because they have probably got legal advice that if the contractor is an employee of his own company then he can't be their employee and therefore can continue to act as a contractor and Brookfield will never have to pay holiday pay, sick pay, redundancy etc. etc.
Outside of aviation most contractors will only get paid if they can prove that they are tax compliant. Brookfield are just following suit.
In relation to paying tax in ireland and in the UK under the double tax treaty how it works is;
as an employee you will have your taxes deducted and paid from your salary in Ireland. At the end of the year you will receive a P60 form confirming your gross pay and tax deducted. You would then give this to your local tax office in the UK and they will calculate how much tax you owe based on the income you received and then give you credit for any tax already paid in Ireland. You will then need to pay the difference to your local tax office.
Pension contributions in Ireland attract very nice tax relief and you could end up paying very little tax here in Ireland. The pension contributions may not be recognised in the UK so you will end up paying a considerable amount of tax in the UK also.
For instance an FO earning €70k pays €20k into a pension and his tax is calculated on a reduced salary of €50k here in Ireland. However th Inland Revenue will calculate the tax due on a salary of €70k and you will end up paying tax at the higher rate on the €20k in the UK.
However most economies grow using a flexible work force which is where contractors come in. In Ireland contracting is acceptable and most of the large multinationals such as Intel and Wyeth who employ thousands of people use a significant number of contactors. The Dublin Airport Authority even uses them.
In the UK IR35 was brought in becuase of IT consultants who were taking the mickey in relation to the expenses they were claiming and the small amount of tax they were paying dispite the fact that they were creaming it in the pre 2000 "milenium bug" days. As a result the amount of expenses that a contractor can claim are restricted.
Brookfield are insisting on a limited company because they have probably got legal advice that if the contractor is an employee of his own company then he can't be their employee and therefore can continue to act as a contractor and Brookfield will never have to pay holiday pay, sick pay, redundancy etc. etc.
Outside of aviation most contractors will only get paid if they can prove that they are tax compliant. Brookfield are just following suit.
In relation to paying tax in ireland and in the UK under the double tax treaty how it works is;
as an employee you will have your taxes deducted and paid from your salary in Ireland. At the end of the year you will receive a P60 form confirming your gross pay and tax deducted. You would then give this to your local tax office in the UK and they will calculate how much tax you owe based on the income you received and then give you credit for any tax already paid in Ireland. You will then need to pay the difference to your local tax office.
Pension contributions in Ireland attract very nice tax relief and you could end up paying very little tax here in Ireland. The pension contributions may not be recognised in the UK so you will end up paying a considerable amount of tax in the UK also.
For instance an FO earning €70k pays €20k into a pension and his tax is calculated on a reduced salary of €50k here in Ireland. However th Inland Revenue will calculate the tax due on a salary of €70k and you will end up paying tax at the higher rate on the €20k in the UK.
Last edited by Gobnet; 5th May 2009 at 13:13.
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Gobnet
Thank you so much for this information.
As a famous quote states;
Brookfield want you to take the Blue pill. Do as they say and just live in blissful ignorance.
The fact that you are here reading all of this shows that you want to take the Red pill.
One thing that i did notice in the new contract.
Clause 8. Variation
The terms of this Contract may be varied in writing by mutual agreement between the parties.
There should be no reason why you, as the 'AESP', can not state who your Ltd company will have it's accounts done by , and where you choose to register your company.
The right of subsitution Clause 1c, is certainly interesting. I am not sure how they can ever show that would work, because if you as an AESP sent someone else to fly a Ryanair plane and didnt tell anyone, then there would be massive implications. However this clause must be in the contract for legal reasons. I bet it can not, and will not ever be used or allowed.
I have to say, I am blown away by the fact these guys were told to register thier accountant as a director, and like Gobnet said, the 3 pilot salaries would be paid into the accountant's bank account is unbelievable. There is nothing to stop one person removing all the funds in one go.
People still think that everything in Brookfield seems to be fine.
Just out of interest, I am guessing that Brookfield are still using a PO Box as thier company address. Seems strange don't you think that the agency that employs you doesn't want you to know where they actually are?
As anyone met any of the people at Brookfield face to face?
As a famous quote states;
"This is your last chance. After this there is no turning back.
You take the blue pill. The story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe.
You take the red pill, stay in wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes."
You take the blue pill. The story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe.
You take the red pill, stay in wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes."
The fact that you are here reading all of this shows that you want to take the Red pill.
One thing that i did notice in the new contract.
Clause 8. Variation
The terms of this Contract may be varied in writing by mutual agreement between the parties.
There should be no reason why you, as the 'AESP', can not state who your Ltd company will have it's accounts done by , and where you choose to register your company.
The right of subsitution Clause 1c, is certainly interesting. I am not sure how they can ever show that would work, because if you as an AESP sent someone else to fly a Ryanair plane and didnt tell anyone, then there would be massive implications. However this clause must be in the contract for legal reasons. I bet it can not, and will not ever be used or allowed.
I have to say, I am blown away by the fact these guys were told to register thier accountant as a director, and like Gobnet said, the 3 pilot salaries would be paid into the accountant's bank account is unbelievable. There is nothing to stop one person removing all the funds in one go.
People still think that everything in Brookfield seems to be fine.
Just out of interest, I am guessing that Brookfield are still using a PO Box as thier company address. Seems strange don't you think that the agency that employs you doesn't want you to know where they actually are?
As anyone met any of the people at Brookfield face to face?
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All pilots in RYR are involved in this.
http://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
This is quite frankly a very frightening situation.
Not only do you now not have employee rights in RYR but you are giving someone who you have never really met or trusted in your life the keys to your bank account who just happens to work for an accountancy firm who do business with BRK.
I'm sorry to say this, but do you see how absurd this seems! This is an absolutely crazy situation. Can you tell me any other place where you would let your contract customer or client effectively have access to your bank account and any changes to your current contract without your control?
Can you imagine any other company in the world doing business for someone and then letting their client access to the bank account and the terms of the contract for what they are working?
This is absolute madness.
Gobnet have you contacted the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland or the Revenue service on what RYR management and BRK are trying here? Do the UK HMRC or FSA know? This is just craziness!!
Brookfield pilots! You are as important as RYR full time employees. If you want to be BRK you should be allowed to be under normal contract terms. If you were forced into BRK you should have the choice of a full time RYR contract or not and one not just given to try and ruin any BALPA campaign push for rights for all RYR and BRK pilots. Please for all RYR pilots and please for yourselves wake up and fill out the BALPA petition for your long term futures across the whole industry before it is slowly but intentionally destroyed. These people have nobodies interest at heart apart from their own personal gain. Here is the petition once again:
http://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
This is quite frankly a very frightening situation.
Not only do you now not have employee rights in RYR but you are giving someone who you have never really met or trusted in your life the keys to your bank account who just happens to work for an accountancy firm who do business with BRK.
I'm sorry to say this, but do you see how absurd this seems! This is an absolutely crazy situation. Can you tell me any other place where you would let your contract customer or client effectively have access to your bank account and any changes to your current contract without your control?
Can you imagine any other company in the world doing business for someone and then letting their client access to the bank account and the terms of the contract for what they are working?
This is absolute madness.
Gobnet have you contacted the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland or the Revenue service on what RYR management and BRK are trying here? Do the UK HMRC or FSA know? This is just craziness!!
Brookfield pilots! You are as important as RYR full time employees. If you want to be BRK you should be allowed to be under normal contract terms. If you were forced into BRK you should have the choice of a full time RYR contract or not and one not just given to try and ruin any BALPA campaign push for rights for all RYR and BRK pilots. Please for all RYR pilots and please for yourselves wake up and fill out the BALPA petition for your long term futures across the whole industry before it is slowly but intentionally destroyed. These people have nobodies interest at heart apart from their own personal gain. Here is the petition once again:
http://www.balpa.org/RyanairPetition.aspx
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I found out last night who the three firms are. Anyone involved in contracting in Ireland would be familiar with two of them and the third is McNamara. I recevied a few more enquiries yesterday from BRK pilots who do not want to use any of the three "recomended" firms and have agreed to force the issue on their behalf today.
I'll let you know if I make any progress.
I'll let you know if I make any progress.
Last edited by Gobnet; 5th May 2009 at 13:14.
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I'm surprised a reputable pilot with accountancy skills hasn't gone ahead and started advertising their services to Brookfield guys. My accountant in the UK is very above board, and a decent chap to deal with. I have a Ltd company, pay my taxes and my NI, and everyone is happy.
Horgy
Horgy
Balpa takes charge.
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The most dangerous and crazy thing is that you will have to open up a LTD in a group of 3 pilots, and one guy from the office becomes the 4th director. This means that he can actually decide to empty the bank account with all your money and disappear .Least but not last, if someone in the company (the 4th director for example) does something illegal or fraud, you will all be liable for his/her mistakes .
Or if one of the company members drops dead, you guessed it, the contents of the Will may include his/her family members getting half of YOUR money!!!!!!!!
Or one of the directors may leave the company but refuse to resign as a director,,,,, bloody hell the list goes on and on.............................
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As Brookfield is a UK company there is little the Irish authorities can do so they will be going after Ryanair. From speaking with Revenue they are also practical people and know that Ryanair will oppose moves to make all pilots full time employees. Even if they do decide to challenge the airline you are looking at a three year period before the matter will be resolved.
Therefore for the moment they want to ensure that all of the contractor pilots are registered and paying some tax. Being a contractor doesn't have to be all bad. In most cases the after tax take home pay of a contractor will be higher than an employee because of the greater flexibility and entitlements in relation to allowable expenses etc.
Therefore for the moment they want to ensure that all of the contractor pilots are registered and paying some tax. Being a contractor doesn't have to be all bad. In most cases the after tax take home pay of a contractor will be higher than an employee because of the greater flexibility and entitlements in relation to allowable expenses etc.
Last edited by Gobnet; 5th May 2009 at 13:15.
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Hello there,
just for curiosity, which salary can you expect as a cadet "net" on average? I find the system on ppjn quite intransparent to really say what is in your pocket once you've finished your Type Rating with Ryanair.
Of course the pay differs for all the different periods, like >500h or >1500h or even in the first 6 months. I don't know exactly.
Would be nice to see a definite figure.
Another question, does Ryanair support any loans for the Type Rating costs? Or do you have to come up with those nearly 30,000€ ?
Thanks in advance, much appreciated!
just for curiosity, which salary can you expect as a cadet "net" on average? I find the system on ppjn quite intransparent to really say what is in your pocket once you've finished your Type Rating with Ryanair.
Of course the pay differs for all the different periods, like >500h or >1500h or even in the first 6 months. I don't know exactly.
Would be nice to see a definite figure.
Another question, does Ryanair support any loans for the Type Rating costs? Or do you have to come up with those nearly 30,000€ ?
Thanks in advance, much appreciated!