Seniority!!!
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Suitcaseman,
A seniority list is the most equitable system that can be applied to pilots.
Firstly look at why this system evolved.
pilots would work on days off, minimise diversions, bust minima and work into discretion ( without discretion ) to impress their flight ops bosses in order to get the next shout for a command.
This was quickly shown to have an adverse effect on flight safety so a system had to be created which would allay flight safety compromises.
A seniority system which is an age based system, and age based because it is absolutely arbitrary ie it is a criteria over which the individual had/has absolutely no control whatsoever, was then deemed to be the fairest system that could be applied.
Remember a seniority list only determines your turn for a command or a vacancy. Meritocracy then applies as to whether you get the vacancy or not.
So a Captain leaves one airline and has to go to the bottom of a seniority list when he moves to another airline. Absolutely fair.
Why should length of service of the junior fo in the second company not be recognised? Why should a pilot with command seniority in one airline automatically be entitled to command seniority in another airline.
Many people who do not understand seniority do not understand that it does not preclude a meritocracy system at the same time.
A seniority list is the most equitable system that can be applied to pilots.
Firstly look at why this system evolved.
pilots would work on days off, minimise diversions, bust minima and work into discretion ( without discretion ) to impress their flight ops bosses in order to get the next shout for a command.
This was quickly shown to have an adverse effect on flight safety so a system had to be created which would allay flight safety compromises.
A seniority system which is an age based system, and age based because it is absolutely arbitrary ie it is a criteria over which the individual had/has absolutely no control whatsoever, was then deemed to be the fairest system that could be applied.
Remember a seniority list only determines your turn for a command or a vacancy. Meritocracy then applies as to whether you get the vacancy or not.
So a Captain leaves one airline and has to go to the bottom of a seniority list when he moves to another airline. Absolutely fair.
Why should length of service of the junior fo in the second company not be recognised? Why should a pilot with command seniority in one airline automatically be entitled to command seniority in another airline.
Many people who do not understand seniority do not understand that it does not preclude a meritocracy system at the same time.
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Suitcaseman you are absolutely right! Seniority systems do absolutely nothing for pilots! Those of you that think the system is fair then think about this. Who benefits from the system that pilots have been conned into accepting? COMPANIES OF COURSE our movement is restricted because we cannot move to another airline for fear of starting right at the bottom again. What professional occupation would tolerate wasting talent and experience on such a great scale. Companies benefit by exploiting our fear and screwing down terms and conditions on a continual basis. The last 20 years salaries have been cut by 70% or so in real terms. Had airline workforces been more mobile these cuts would not have been anywhere near so drastic. If we all only look out for ourselves all the time rather than look at the big picture the decline of our profession can only continue.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Seniority systems have been around a very long time and when they became the 'norm' the vast majority of pilots were happy to stay where they were, a few dissatisfied individuals might move, the penalty was losing seniority.
As has been stated many times already, seniority only determines the order in which you get considered for command, you still have to meet the suitability, experience, competence and licence requirements, not to mention passing a command course.
The people that have the biggest problem with seniority lists are those that think they are better than they usually are or have left one company to join another and find they have less experienced people ahead of them.
Back to paragraph two, "seniority only determines the order etc. etc."
The only seriously iniquitous use of a seniority list I ever came across was in Gulf Air in the seventies. A bright young spark on the PLC convinced the council they should have a 'D' list of FOs who had an ATPL from which future commanders would be selected. The iniquitous part came when it was decreed that when one did get their ATPL they moved on to the 'D' list at the bottom and not on DOJ! Needless to say, 'bright young spark' joined with an ATPL and didn't want to wait his turn, (nor did he!). Looking back over the years it probably didn't hurt me that much but I definitely didn't like it at the time, DOJ was GOD!.
As has been stated many times already, seniority only determines the order in which you get considered for command, you still have to meet the suitability, experience, competence and licence requirements, not to mention passing a command course.
The people that have the biggest problem with seniority lists are those that think they are better than they usually are or have left one company to join another and find they have less experienced people ahead of them.
Back to paragraph two, "seniority only determines the order etc. etc."
The only seriously iniquitous use of a seniority list I ever came across was in Gulf Air in the seventies. A bright young spark on the PLC convinced the council they should have a 'D' list of FOs who had an ATPL from which future commanders would be selected. The iniquitous part came when it was decreed that when one did get their ATPL they moved on to the 'D' list at the bottom and not on DOJ! Needless to say, 'bright young spark' joined with an ATPL and didn't want to wait his turn, (nor did he!). Looking back over the years it probably didn't hurt me that much but I definitely didn't like it at the time, DOJ was GOD!.
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pilots would work on days off, minimise diversions, bust minima and work into discretion ( without discretion ) to impress their flight ops bosses in order to get the next shout for a command.
That also apply to diversions ...
Let's just say YOU like seniority, don't try to explain why do YOU think it's good.
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Seniority is fair if applied strictly and impartially. My own experience is that it tends to be applied when it suits and ignored when it dosen't, its never done me any great favours. I guess that in a large outfit like BA it works ok and at least you know where you stand. As has been pointed it will not get you a command, just give you a shot at it, you still have to pass the course. As far as redundancies go, don't get me started.
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Senority restricts movement of labour. No movement in labour no need to compete for labour. No competion for labour = Lower T's and P's. Pilots have to the amusement of management taken this as "a holy grail". But there again we as a profeession do a good job of shooting ourselves in the foot every time.
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Not so African drunk, Seniority lists allow, amongst other things, the ability of a pilot body to think strategically. Pilots vote to increase top of scale. Pilots vote to protect the working conditions at the top because they know they will get there themselves. Look at the empirical evidence around the industry. Companies with seniority systems pay more than companies without. BA, Luft,.Iber.,vs Easy,Berlin, and god help us Ryan. So before you accuse the profession of self harm, look where your pointing that thing.
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Seniority
.....and Pilots are very good in shooting themselves in both Foot at the same time. The Seniority is from yesterday and if there is no competition there is no effort. Why should a good F/O not get the upgrade earlier if he is ready for command instead of waiting down the line until it is his turn? He is watching Guy´s who scare the sh*t out of everybody when they fly and they "occupy" a left seat..... Performance should be a larger part then seniority.
If a Airline is in need of Pilots then hire what they need, FR could not find enough suitable F/O´s on the bottom of the list in 1999 so they hired Captains directly. In LH the seniority system is so complicated as the Germans can be: With bypassing and bypass salary, sidetracks and more gimmicks. If I would run a Airline I would look for joining date and performance, naturaly first come first serve. If the Pilots play it funny I understand that some Managers pulling theire Hairs off. If you cannot run the schedule or expansion then all Jobs are in danger and then you can praise your seniority list when all Job´s are gone and the Company folded at the end. See the 49érs at CX, diffrent case but where are they now?? Or CO released once alot of Pilots when they where on strike and what was the seniority list worth?
It could be a guidline but not the Bible and stone tracking.... Times changed.
Fly safe and land happy, that is not restricted by seniority !!!
NG
If a Airline is in need of Pilots then hire what they need, FR could not find enough suitable F/O´s on the bottom of the list in 1999 so they hired Captains directly. In LH the seniority system is so complicated as the Germans can be: With bypassing and bypass salary, sidetracks and more gimmicks. If I would run a Airline I would look for joining date and performance, naturaly first come first serve. If the Pilots play it funny I understand that some Managers pulling theire Hairs off. If you cannot run the schedule or expansion then all Jobs are in danger and then you can praise your seniority list when all Job´s are gone and the Company folded at the end. See the 49érs at CX, diffrent case but where are they now?? Or CO released once alot of Pilots when they where on strike and what was the seniority list worth?
It could be a guidline but not the Bible and stone tracking.... Times changed.
Fly safe and land happy, that is not restricted by seniority !!!
NG
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Stingaling and Stansdead,
The debate on the pros and cons of seniority can go on forever, but please do not needlessly insult the professionalism of the thousands of pilots who work for the very successful low cost airlines (which also happen to have an outstanding safety record). "Join a decent airline" and "not be out of place at a 3rd rate outfit in a banana republic" are pretty sad comments and I can't help thinking that they reflect some sort of unresolved insecurity on your part.
As far as the debate itself is concerned, my opinion is that seniority seems like a good idea if all the airlines have it and you bring back the "good old days" of route monopolies (or not far off). The most competitive situation would be to have no seniority at all airlines. Like just about every other industry in the world. We could freely move from one to the other i.e. vote with our feet. I truly believe seniority only gives you the illusion of protecting your career. When mergers and bankruptcies come, it all comes crashing down. Well it used to anyway, since now you can go fly for those "banana republic" outfits which, as far as the nice old gentlemen sitting on my left are concerned, seem to be a very nice and safe place to work.
P
The debate on the pros and cons of seniority can go on forever, but please do not needlessly insult the professionalism of the thousands of pilots who work for the very successful low cost airlines (which also happen to have an outstanding safety record). "Join a decent airline" and "not be out of place at a 3rd rate outfit in a banana republic" are pretty sad comments and I can't help thinking that they reflect some sort of unresolved insecurity on your part.
As far as the debate itself is concerned, my opinion is that seniority seems like a good idea if all the airlines have it and you bring back the "good old days" of route monopolies (or not far off). The most competitive situation would be to have no seniority at all airlines. Like just about every other industry in the world. We could freely move from one to the other i.e. vote with our feet. I truly believe seniority only gives you the illusion of protecting your career. When mergers and bankruptcies come, it all comes crashing down. Well it used to anyway, since now you can go fly for those "banana republic" outfits which, as far as the nice old gentlemen sitting on my left are concerned, seem to be a very nice and safe place to work.
P
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Permafrost_ATPL
You mention the LCC's. Jolly good. When the mass redundancies occur soon, as they surely will, you would advocate a non seniority basis for those redundancies, would you? Maybe last in, last out? I guess if you are not a victim then it's I'm alright Jack, too bad about you.
I take it you would also be agreeable to multi tare pay rates for personal doing the same job. In other words a "free for all". Really great system to boost moral that.
Give you a piece of advice. Don'T be too hasty in advertising the fact the company you work for, or you are a big fan of, has never had a prang or words to that effect. As we are all human, therefore fallible, that situation could change at anytime. Don't believe me, then ask Qantas.
You mention the LCC's. Jolly good. When the mass redundancies occur soon, as they surely will, you would advocate a non seniority basis for those redundancies, would you? Maybe last in, last out? I guess if you are not a victim then it's I'm alright Jack, too bad about you.
I take it you would also be agreeable to multi tare pay rates for personal doing the same job. In other words a "free for all". Really great system to boost moral that.
Give you a piece of advice. Don'T be too hasty in advertising the fact the company you work for, or you are a big fan of, has never had a prang or words to that effect. As we are all human, therefore fallible, that situation could change at anytime. Don't believe me, then ask Qantas.
