OpenSkies? Sell your soul
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http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271434
Loads of guys earing less and having worse T's and C's then OS.
Must be quite nice living in total ignorance to the rest of the world.
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CEJM,
Having read the open shorts contract cover to cover and been astounded how much people are willing to prostitute themselves and the industry I would suggest that I am less ignorant on the matter than you may have assumed.
I am not surprised by the type of people I know to have joined.
My integrety is intact. I didnt join. It wont last with the type of management, the type of servitude , i mean contract , and the type of people that have joined. Both parties will live to regret it.
.
They dont need to be called scabs. Anal prostiutes would be more appropiate
Having read the open shorts contract cover to cover and been astounded how much people are willing to prostitute themselves and the industry I would suggest that I am less ignorant on the matter than you may have assumed.
I am not surprised by the type of people I know to have joined.
My integrety is intact. I didnt join. It wont last with the type of management, the type of servitude , i mean contract , and the type of people that have joined. Both parties will live to regret it.
.They dont need to be called scabs. Anal prostiutes would be more appropiate
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Wee One,
You might be right. But your earlier statement seems a bit unfair on our Eastern European colleague who is on 1400 euros a month. Imagine yourself in their position and you might have done exactly the same.
Different people will make different choices based on their requirements. I do understand what you are saying and personally I wouldn't join either. But if you have the choice to join OS or be without a job in the near future then a lot of people will choose OS. And hopefully I will never be put in that situation but I might choose OS also over being without a job.
Very difficult to judge the people who have joined and what their reasons are.
But I must add, that unlike you, I don't know anybody who has joined OS.
You might be right. But your earlier statement seems a bit unfair on our Eastern European colleague who is on 1400 euros a month. Imagine yourself in their position and you might have done exactly the same.
Different people will make different choices based on their requirements. I do understand what you are saying and personally I wouldn't join either. But if you have the choice to join OS or be without a job in the near future then a lot of people will choose OS. And hopefully I will never be put in that situation but I might choose OS also over being without a job.
Very difficult to judge the people who have joined and what their reasons are.
But I must add, that unlike you, I don't know anybody who has joined OS.
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"Different people will make different choices based on their requirements. I do understand what you are saying and personally I wouldn't join either. But if you have the choice to join OS or be without a job in the near future then a lot of people will choose OS. And hopefully I will never be put in that situation but I might choose OS also over being without a job.
udging ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It not as if we are judging their mortal souls ,only their choices. And it is a bad choice indeed. There are lots of jobs available today that do not involve compromising one's integrity and life-long reputation. It's just not worth it.
udging ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It not as if we are judging their mortal souls ,only their choices. And it is a bad choice indeed. There are lots of jobs available today that do not involve compromising one's integrity and life-long reputation. It's just not worth it.
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I think we shouldn't be surprised to know that there are quite a few 757/767 captains and F/O's who are really interested in Openskies.
You can't blaim them really, they have their families and/or themselves to take care for and the future for them at Flyglobespan, XL ,Jet2 ,Thomson and all those mainland charters operating on 757/767 like Arkefly and Jetairfly is starting to look a bit grim beyond 2008.
Compared to those operators , terms and conditions don't differ a lot and one could imagine there might even be more job security at Openskies.
There is some smoke screen of putting openskies pilots on the BA seniority list but what we are really talking about is the fact that we are talking about putting BA pilots on the openskies planes and nothing less or more.
And that means a stop on direct entry captains does it not ?
I guess there will be quite a few BA F/O's happy with that.
But will that really happen or is it wishfull thinking ?
Normally a new start up requires direct entry captains don't they ?
and to mention other UK airlines T&C's will erode because BA's T&C's are eroding (which they are not by the way, they'll mean openskies T&C's don't they) goes a bit far doesn't it ?
I very seriously doubt that ThomsonFly T&C's will be eroded by the openskies start up. Same goes for all the other operators.
You can't blaim them really, they have their families and/or themselves to take care for and the future for them at Flyglobespan, XL ,Jet2 ,Thomson and all those mainland charters operating on 757/767 like Arkefly and Jetairfly is starting to look a bit grim beyond 2008.
Compared to those operators , terms and conditions don't differ a lot and one could imagine there might even be more job security at Openskies.
There is some smoke screen of putting openskies pilots on the BA seniority list but what we are really talking about is the fact that we are talking about putting BA pilots on the openskies planes and nothing less or more.
And that means a stop on direct entry captains does it not ?
I guess there will be quite a few BA F/O's happy with that.
But will that really happen or is it wishfull thinking ?
Normally a new start up requires direct entry captains don't they ?
and to mention other UK airlines T&C's will erode because BA's T&C's are eroding (which they are not by the way, they'll mean openskies T&C's don't they) goes a bit far doesn't it ?
I very seriously doubt that ThomsonFly T&C's will be eroded by the openskies start up. Same goes for all the other operators.
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Joe Two,
You are, indeed, correct. There are DEC positions within OS. Infact the recruitment has been open to a limited number of BA line pilots who wish to be 'seconded' to OS for a minimum of 4 years on OS T's & C's.
As far as joining OS as a DEC from an FO's position in mainline, it's a non starter. BA have already stated that a command course within OS will not be accepted when the secondee comes back to mainline and they will have to wait and re-do the command course as appropriate. Somewhat questionable to me as the command qualifications/course should, surely, be adequate for OS and Mainline unless the management are accepting below par training for their new fledgling?
Even if the common seniority list were to be accepted, any DEC positions who wish to transfer to the mainline from OS would lose their commands as they take up their natural seniority position within the company. AFAIK there will be no grandfather rights.
It's all in the melting pot at the moment but, oddly enough, there doesn't seem to be a queue at the door to OS from Mainline.
As to the T's & C's, BA is still billed as an 'aspirational' carrier. Which means that they, at the moment, have no lack of applicants wishing to join. If the T's & C's at any major carrier be it BA or Virgin are slashed then there is no incentive to move carrier. The management will know this and therefore reduce any incentives they may have to entice people to remain with their company. As the top starts to slip the degradation WILL roll downhill. Why would any current management maintain any half decent T's & C's when they know that the pilot workforce has nowhere else to go?
You are, indeed, correct. There are DEC positions within OS. Infact the recruitment has been open to a limited number of BA line pilots who wish to be 'seconded' to OS for a minimum of 4 years on OS T's & C's.
As far as joining OS as a DEC from an FO's position in mainline, it's a non starter. BA have already stated that a command course within OS will not be accepted when the secondee comes back to mainline and they will have to wait and re-do the command course as appropriate. Somewhat questionable to me as the command qualifications/course should, surely, be adequate for OS and Mainline unless the management are accepting below par training for their new fledgling?
Even if the common seniority list were to be accepted, any DEC positions who wish to transfer to the mainline from OS would lose their commands as they take up their natural seniority position within the company. AFAIK there will be no grandfather rights.
It's all in the melting pot at the moment but, oddly enough, there doesn't seem to be a queue at the door to OS from Mainline.
As to the T's & C's, BA is still billed as an 'aspirational' carrier. Which means that they, at the moment, have no lack of applicants wishing to join. If the T's & C's at any major carrier be it BA or Virgin are slashed then there is no incentive to move carrier. The management will know this and therefore reduce any incentives they may have to entice people to remain with their company. As the top starts to slip the degradation WILL roll downhill. Why would any current management maintain any half decent T's & C's when they know that the pilot workforce has nowhere else to go?
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Can anyone tell me of an occasion when pilots in BA have put their necks out for the benefit of pilots employed elsewhere in the industry?
I very seriously doubt that ThomsonFly T&C's will be eroded by the openskies start up. Same goes for all the other operators.
I wish all those joining OS as an FO the best of luck, everyone needs a break in this industry. I can't condone any DEC's, you are all big enough to know what the issues are.
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Joe two.
You are right about an ever shrinking 7576 pool of jobs,however you need to compare apples with apples etc. OS is a ryr style shafting nothing more nothing less. Makes jet2 look like ahippy commune.
You are right about an ever shrinking 7576 pool of jobs,however you need to compare apples with apples etc. OS is a ryr style shafting nothing more nothing less. Makes jet2 look like ahippy commune.
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Compared to those operators , terms and conditions don't differ a lot
PP
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Does anybody on this thread / website who freely uses the word SCAB actually know what it means ?
The Oxford Dictionary states that a SCAB is a BLACKLEG ( in regard to trade-Unionism ) and that a BLACKLEG is ' a workman who works for an employer whose men are on strike'.
In aviation ( eg the Australian 'dispute' in 1989 ) it means a pilot who basically defies his own colleagues / union and crosses the picket line and returns to work .
I fail to see how prospective pilots for OS , who are obviously not part of any union as yet , can be labelled as SCABS .
Get your facts staright please.
ps I have no interest in the outcome of this 'dispute' , but I dislike the use of derogatory terms in our ' gentlemens ' profession by Neanderthals.
The Oxford Dictionary states that a SCAB is a BLACKLEG ( in regard to trade-Unionism ) and that a BLACKLEG is ' a workman who works for an employer whose men are on strike'.
In aviation ( eg the Australian 'dispute' in 1989 ) it means a pilot who basically defies his own colleagues / union and crosses the picket line and returns to work .
I fail to see how prospective pilots for OS , who are obviously not part of any union as yet , can be labelled as SCABS .
Get your facts staright please.
ps I have no interest in the outcome of this 'dispute' , but I dislike the use of derogatory terms in our ' gentlemens ' profession by Neanderthals.
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Kota....
The BA pilots are in court so they can strike on this issue if need be. That fulfills all requirements to use the word SCAB. How funny that you types get all squeemish over the use of the word SCAB itself, yet look the other way over the act of SCABBING.
All of this political correctness and equivocation is serving to appease WW and let him get away with it. For heaven's sake ,grow a pair and call it what it is.
The BA pilots are in court so they can strike on this issue if need be. That fulfills all requirements to use the word SCAB. How funny that you types get all squeemish over the use of the word SCAB itself, yet look the other way over the act of SCABBING.
All of this political correctness and equivocation is serving to appease WW and let him get away with it. For heaven's sake ,grow a pair and call it what it is.
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All of this political correctness and equivocation is serving to appease WW and let him get away with it. For heaven's sake ,grow a pair and call it what it is.
quote Kotakota
I dislike the use of derogatory terms in our ' gentlemens ' profession by Neanderthals.
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How you can call this a gentlemans profession when we are debating pilots choosing to ignore IALPA recruitment bans is beyond me.
And for all those that have chosen to join Openskies...you have NO bloody idea what the current management ethos is in British Airways because they will drain every last drop of morale from your soul. I have seen the contract; are some of you blind? the terms and conditions are appalling.
- No seniority, so any upgrades will be to the biggest brownnoser/ Robin glovers golf pals.
- company can cancel your leave at any time - awesome, that'll be interesting to tell the wife and kids!
- company can vary ANY aspect of your duty from time to time - i can see British Airways taking FULL advantage of that.
I wouldn't like to make that commanders discretion extension on a snowy January night in NYC after my third 2 man B2B in a month.
For comparison i have just got back from a 2 man JFK B2B...still knackered 2 days later and the weather etc on the East coast was benign so it was as easy as atlantic crossings ever get. The thought of doing it 3 times + a month fills me with dread.
CAn someone who is employed with Openskies please give us a breakdown of previous employment because i would be interested who exactly has worse conditions in the Western world.
And for all those that have chosen to join Openskies...you have NO bloody idea what the current management ethos is in British Airways because they will drain every last drop of morale from your soul. I have seen the contract; are some of you blind? the terms and conditions are appalling.
- No seniority, so any upgrades will be to the biggest brownnoser/ Robin glovers golf pals.
- company can cancel your leave at any time - awesome, that'll be interesting to tell the wife and kids!
- company can vary ANY aspect of your duty from time to time - i can see British Airways taking FULL advantage of that.
I wouldn't like to make that commanders discretion extension on a snowy January night in NYC after my third 2 man B2B in a month.
For comparison i have just got back from a 2 man JFK B2B...still knackered 2 days later and the weather etc on the East coast was benign so it was as easy as atlantic crossings ever get. The thought of doing it 3 times + a month fills me with dread.
CAn someone who is employed with Openskies please give us a breakdown of previous employment because i would be interested who exactly has worse conditions in the Western world.
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The word "scab" is being used out of frustration!! It's a pathetic, dismal attempt to intimidate and stop people joining Openskies and it won't work
Those who consider the T's & C's at Openskies to be below par may well be right when compared to their own, but the (sad) fact is that there are a lot worse out there.
If Openskies offers you an improved quality of life then go for it. Don't worry about a couple of donkeys trying to bully you here on Pprune.
The attitude of the majority in BA mainline can be found on this thread thro' the words of "wobble2plank".
MD
Those who consider the T's & C's at Openskies to be below par may well be right when compared to their own, but the (sad) fact is that there are a lot worse out there.
If Openskies offers you an improved quality of life then go for it. Don't worry about a couple of donkeys trying to bully you here on Pprune.
The attitude of the majority in BA mainline can be found on this thread thro' the words of "wobble2plank".
MD
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Whether the people applying to Open Lies are to be referred to as "scabs" is not especially relevant. The fact is that they are in contravention of the IFALPA recruitment ban which means that if they ever need the support of a union (and BA have already said they will recognise BALPA as now), they will find themselves on their own.
As someone who currently works for BA, that is not a position I'd feel particularly safe in considering some of the individuals who are running the show. Don't ever, ever, ever put the slightest foot wrong and you'll be absolutely fine. If you screw up, God help you because it's unlikely anyone else will.
As someone who currently works for BA, that is not a position I'd feel particularly safe in considering some of the individuals who are running the show. Don't ever, ever, ever put the slightest foot wrong and you'll be absolutely fine. If you screw up, God help you because it's unlikely anyone else will.
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i think that was because the BALPA ballot had to be issued, voted on, then action could start once the union had a mandate.
IMO it would have been stupid to issue a IFALPA ban BEFORE the ballot result was known just in case.
IMO it would have been stupid to issue a IFALPA ban BEFORE the ballot result was known just in case.
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Joe two, you have little or no understanding of terms and conditions in Thomsonfly if you are comparing them with OS, Jet2, Flyglobespan and Excel.
From all those companies Thomsonfly is the only one who is forced to have redundancies.
Redundancies will be on a voluntary basis.
Makes a possible move to OpenSkies even more likely doesn't it ?