OpenSkies? Sell your soul
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Never been in BACX
The previous posts have shown some really nasty little minds
Going back a few years, 4 F/O's in the company I then worked for applied to BA - 2 were snotty rude gits and 2 very good well adjusted competant guys - guess which 2 got the jobs !
As I've already said, I also know some excellent ex BA guys.
Could the BA contributors just try and get away from the idea that they're better than everyone else because do you know what.................you're not different from the rest and the continued suggestion otherwise does nothing for your cause
Can anyone tell me of an occasion when pilots in BA have put their necks out for the benefit of pilots employed elsewhere in the industry?
So if someone wants / needs a job with OS, why shouldn't he take it - and as for the talk of scabs - pathetically reminiscent of the Ozzie dispute and what a great success that was (not).
For heavens sake grow up guys
The previous posts have shown some really nasty little minds
Going back a few years, 4 F/O's in the company I then worked for applied to BA - 2 were snotty rude gits and 2 very good well adjusted competant guys - guess which 2 got the jobs !
As I've already said, I also know some excellent ex BA guys.
Could the BA contributors just try and get away from the idea that they're better than everyone else because do you know what.................you're not different from the rest and the continued suggestion otherwise does nothing for your cause
Can anyone tell me of an occasion when pilots in BA have put their necks out for the benefit of pilots employed elsewhere in the industry?
So if someone wants / needs a job with OS, why shouldn't he take it - and as for the talk of scabs - pathetically reminiscent of the Ozzie dispute and what a great success that was (not).
For heavens sake grow up guys
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Aha, yes, there it is: "The BA WAY", like a very special kind of weed or pest that can be identified by airline botanists the world over, "The BA WAY" has put in another appearance.
It works like this: BA take over Dan Air in the meanest, cruellest way imaginable. BACX likewise. A very great many pilots lives are ruined by BA MANAGEMENT. BA then create a Trojan Horse subsidiary designed to screw over the mainline BA pilot force some years after screwing over everyone else that came within range. Every single pilot who was screwed over in phase one, (Dans and BACX), now rubs their hands with glee and says "got you too now, you bastards, you deserve every inch of the bat your going to get".
Meanwhile the same BA MANAGEMENT that created the Dans and BACX situation in the first place laughs itself sick at the way they so deftly created Pilot Fatricide and sees us all for the suckers they have always taken us to be.
So, if "The BA WAY" is not to become a virulent pest that attacks pilot terms and conditions wherever they may be found, what then is the way to eradicate it? Answers on a postcard to Gardeners Question Time.
Alternatively, try seeing the much talked about "Big Picture" and see Open Lies for what it really is - an attempt to screw over every commercial pilot working in Europe by some very greedy, very cynical guys indeed.
That said, I suspect some of Open Lies most rabid supporters on pprune are not what they seem. Take them with a pinch of salt. Keep running the propaganda Robin - your betrayal of your own profession makes me sick, as does your Evangelical Cant
It works like this: BA take over Dan Air in the meanest, cruellest way imaginable. BACX likewise. A very great many pilots lives are ruined by BA MANAGEMENT. BA then create a Trojan Horse subsidiary designed to screw over the mainline BA pilot force some years after screwing over everyone else that came within range. Every single pilot who was screwed over in phase one, (Dans and BACX), now rubs their hands with glee and says "got you too now, you bastards, you deserve every inch of the bat your going to get".
Meanwhile the same BA MANAGEMENT that created the Dans and BACX situation in the first place laughs itself sick at the way they so deftly created Pilot Fatricide and sees us all for the suckers they have always taken us to be.
So, if "The BA WAY" is not to become a virulent pest that attacks pilot terms and conditions wherever they may be found, what then is the way to eradicate it? Answers on a postcard to Gardeners Question Time.
Alternatively, try seeing the much talked about "Big Picture" and see Open Lies for what it really is - an attempt to screw over every commercial pilot working in Europe by some very greedy, very cynical guys indeed.
That said, I suspect some of Open Lies most rabid supporters on pprune are not what they seem. Take them with a pinch of salt. Keep running the propaganda Robin - your betrayal of your own profession makes me sick, as does your Evangelical Cant
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"even though I support the BA pilots and their plight against BA i really have a problem with this "scab" attitude. we are not living in the 1970s, give it a rest guys."
===========================================
Please tell me how the 70's are different than now in regards to this issue?
The only difference is in the minds of those who no longer have the will to defend the profession, but will equivocate for convenience. God forbid we should call a scab a scab.
===========================================
Please tell me how the 70's are different than now in regards to this issue?
The only difference is in the minds of those who no longer have the will to defend the profession, but will equivocate for convenience. God forbid we should call a scab a scab.
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"Can anyone tell me of an occasion when pilots in BA have put their necks out for the benefit of pilots employed elsewhere in the industry?"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yes.
On Apr. 15th of this year, BA pilots supported AA pilot's picket at Glaxo, and they continue to support us now.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yes.
On Apr. 15th of this year, BA pilots supported AA pilot's picket at Glaxo, and they continue to support us now.
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Two other interesting points I've heard from someone who is thinking of applying are that one would be required to sign up to a £18,000 bond over a 2 1/2yr period, & that all the cabin crew are to be New York based. It aso appears that although all applicants are welcome, those that are not currently type rated will be strung along with questionable promises.
They are also having trouble finding a training manager, I believe they are on their 5th round of selection interviews, people have said they will take the job and then on reflection withdraw.
They are also having trouble finding a training manager, I believe they are on their 5th round of selection interviews, people have said they will take the job and then on reflection withdraw.
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In terms of sticking your neck out for someone else I was meaning something that causes you pain or loss.
Think of the Capt Johnny Blogs flying his Boeing Glass Cockpit for JOT6 airlines on 60 something K per annum, bugger all duty pay and no crew food and wondering if his outfit will last through the economic gloom and fuel price crisis - now he could get a better job with OS with much better T's and C's yet some of you guys expect him to pass up the opportunity in order to protect what you perceive to be a threat to your T's and C's whch are already miles ahead of his................!
Can you see why he is likely to go ahead anyway regardless of playground name calling.
As for BALPA who seem so opposed to OS, can any BALPA type tell me why OS is different to the EasyJet continental salaries and T's and C's which BALPA have agreed? EasyJet's continental bases aren't even a subsidary airline - one AOC and one airline yet different T's and C's and I hear BALPA have agreed the new conditions for pilots at those bases.
No one in BA is losing their job or having a pay cut as a result of OS.
Think of the Capt Johnny Blogs flying his Boeing Glass Cockpit for JOT6 airlines on 60 something K per annum, bugger all duty pay and no crew food and wondering if his outfit will last through the economic gloom and fuel price crisis - now he could get a better job with OS with much better T's and C's yet some of you guys expect him to pass up the opportunity in order to protect what you perceive to be a threat to your T's and C's whch are already miles ahead of his................!
Can you see why he is likely to go ahead anyway regardless of playground name calling.
As for BALPA who seem so opposed to OS, can any BALPA type tell me why OS is different to the EasyJet continental salaries and T's and C's which BALPA have agreed? EasyJet's continental bases aren't even a subsidary airline - one AOC and one airline yet different T's and C's and I hear BALPA have agreed the new conditions for pilots at those bases.
No one in BA is losing their job or having a pay cut as a result of OS.
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"Can anyone tell me of an occasion when pilots in BA have put their necks out for the benefit of pilots employed elsewhere in the industry?"
That is exactly what BA pilots are doing now!!!, many pilots in BA have worked in other airlines and indeed other industries and are not, as some posters on here imply, BA nigels who think only of BA. Most BA pilots have worked hard to get where they are, and looking at the other posts on this forum many other pilots are also trying to get that job in BA to have all the benefits it brings.
It is widely recognized that most airline managers see BA terms and conditions as the upper limits to the expectation of their pilot workforce, therefore if the BA T&C's are eroded then there is no way other UK airlines will enhance their T&C's they will be eroded too.
So in answer to the above question in trying to protect their own T&C's constantly they are protecting others, and now more than ever with the "credit crunch" and their support for strike action.!!!
That is exactly what BA pilots are doing now!!!, many pilots in BA have worked in other airlines and indeed other industries and are not, as some posters on here imply, BA nigels who think only of BA. Most BA pilots have worked hard to get where they are, and looking at the other posts on this forum many other pilots are also trying to get that job in BA to have all the benefits it brings.
It is widely recognized that most airline managers see BA terms and conditions as the upper limits to the expectation of their pilot workforce, therefore if the BA T&C's are eroded then there is no way other UK airlines will enhance their T&C's they will be eroded too.
So in answer to the above question in trying to protect their own T&C's constantly they are protecting others, and now more than ever with the "credit crunch" and their support for strike action.!!!
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Gypsy, you write very good stuff.
It may be true that BA management have a bad press for their past and present actions and attitudes, yet if the BA pilots cannot (or maybe refuse to) see how they are perceived by your JOT6 airlines example (and for that, read also most UK Turbo-Prop outfits pilots) then they are doomed to fail; or at least, doomed to ever get any sympathy or support.
ShortfinalFred said:
Yes. Absolutely. If there had been ANY support from BALPA at that time, of the same nature and volume currently being deployed against the OS concept, then I'm quite sure the vast majority of posts on here would be different.
Unfortunately, there was zilch support, because it didn't concern you, or your pockets. Your current argument for altruism reeks of hypocrisy.
Sorry, nothing personal, just history, and fact.
It may be true that BA management have a bad press for their past and present actions and attitudes, yet if the BA pilots cannot (or maybe refuse to) see how they are perceived by your JOT6 airlines example (and for that, read also most UK Turbo-Prop outfits pilots) then they are doomed to fail; or at least, doomed to ever get any sympathy or support.
ShortfinalFred said:
It works like this: BA take over Dan Air in the meanest, cruellest way imaginable. BACX likewise. A very great many pilots lives are ruined by BA MANAGEMENT. BA then create a Trojan Horse subsidiary designed to screw over the mainline BA pilot force some years after screwing over everyone else that came within range. Every single pilot who was screwed over in phase one, (Dans and BACX), now rubs their hands with glee and says "got you too now, you bastards, you deserve every inch of the bat your going to get".
Unfortunately, there was zilch support, because it didn't concern you, or your pockets. Your current argument for altruism reeks of hypocrisy.
Sorry, nothing personal, just history, and fact.
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Serious Apologies
Apologies in advance for thread creep, but I think this is relevant. A bit of general browsing led me to the EZY to BA thread, where I read the following. I believe it says alot about the entire BA WAY as applied throughout that Company. Nothing personal chaps.
(my italics)
Wingswinger said:
No mention of scabs either....
(my italics)Wingswinger said:
I'd like to echo what NSF has said. I am an ex-BA captain who had to leave under the old retirement age rule (six months too old to stay). I've been with EZY just over two years and I enjoy it. No whinging culture, no back-biting, no inter-department jealousies, just folks coming in to do their jobs in as friendly and as co-operative a manner as they can. The SOPs are less prescriptive, no part of manual flyng is discouraged or banned and there is plenty scope for concepts such as common sense, airmanship and initiative. I had more personal satisfaction in my first 17 months with EZY than I did in 17 years in BA. It helps, of course, that the company is still expanding and creating opportunities. In sum, I work harder than I did in BA, I'm paid less but I enjoy it more, and - this is the crucial bit - I am treated much more like a captain than I ever was in BA.
Sadly, I don't have a megapension like some of my erstwhile colleagues to whom NSF refers (only 17 years, you see, preceded by 17 years in the RAF) so I'm still full-time and will be for the foreseeable future.
I do miss the nightstops in 5-star city-centre hotels, though!
Sadly, I don't have a megapension like some of my erstwhile colleagues to whom NSF refers (only 17 years, you see, preceded by 17 years in the RAF) so I'm still full-time and will be for the foreseeable future.
I do miss the nightstops in 5-star city-centre hotels, though!
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It is widely recognized that most airline managers see BA terms and conditions as the upper limits to the expectation of their pilot workforce, therefore if the BA T&C's are eroded then there is no way other UK airlines will enhance their T&C's they will be eroded too.
I very seriously doubt it.
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Joe, I hope you are right and I'm wrong,this is a long term effect I'm looking at and not short term. As quoted by other international pilot unions, they wish they had stood up as a group to the "Trojan horses", introduced in the form of American eagle(USA) and Jetstar(aus).
As a pilot with quite a few years let in the industry i hope that any threat to our collective T&C's can be quashed before our managers implement them
As a pilot with quite a few years let in the industry i hope that any threat to our collective T&C's can be quashed before our managers implement them
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'ltn and beyond' - I hope that too.
However, as is frequently made clear by Hand Solo and/or Tandem Rotor, it is up to individual company councils or similar groups of pilots to put their own cases forcefully enough to prevent any such threat becoming fact within their own airline.
It's difficult to see in reality how any cross-industry grouping from more than one airline can legally (even supposing they wanted to, and BA have not demonstrated much history of that) take industrial action on behalf of different carriers.
However, the BACC line that any group of pilots, by electing and supporting a strong CC in pursuit of their own best interests, can maintain their own Ts and Cs where they wish...is actually broadly correct, and regardless of OS, Jetstar or anyone else will in theory always be effective.
In the meantime, it's difficult to see why any of us wanting to improve our own situation should not join OS if we so wish - otherwise we are putting the interests of others before those of ourselves and our families.
I leave it to the forum to decide - (assuming this post is allowed any longevity) - whether BA pilots have genuinely and collectively ever demonstrated such commitment to non-BA pilot groups.
However, as is frequently made clear by Hand Solo and/or Tandem Rotor, it is up to individual company councils or similar groups of pilots to put their own cases forcefully enough to prevent any such threat becoming fact within their own airline.
It's difficult to see in reality how any cross-industry grouping from more than one airline can legally (even supposing they wanted to, and BA have not demonstrated much history of that) take industrial action on behalf of different carriers.
However, the BACC line that any group of pilots, by electing and supporting a strong CC in pursuit of their own best interests, can maintain their own Ts and Cs where they wish...is actually broadly correct, and regardless of OS, Jetstar or anyone else will in theory always be effective.
In the meantime, it's difficult to see why any of us wanting to improve our own situation should not join OS if we so wish - otherwise we are putting the interests of others before those of ourselves and our families.
I leave it to the forum to decide - (assuming this post is allowed any longevity) - whether BA pilots have genuinely and collectively ever demonstrated such commitment to non-BA pilot groups.
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Ironically, away from the vitriolic mumbo jumbo postings that some erstwhile members of our supposedly 'professional' workforce choose to post, I too enjoy my daily work at BA.
Most of us have the ability to treat BA as a job just like any other. I don't feel any better than anyone else flying the skies but I do feel I have achieved a good balance in working lifestyle and my terms and conditions. Hence the reason for my coming to BA. Most line pilots will try and protect their terms and conditions as is natural in a cut throat industry where the bottom line is king and we are all under immense pressure from the spiraling price of oil.
I personally, and also the view of the vast majority of my colleagues, have no axe to grind with anyone who wishes to join OS. As has been stated before in these threads, in the occasional moment of clarity, there are many people who will be willing to accept these T&C's as there are not many alternatives at the moment. As a pilot workforce we should never be bitter towards anyone who wants to fly to support themselves and their families. It is snyd, pointless and degrading. The word 'Scab' is vulgar and wholly inappropriate.
I don't agree with attacking the workforce that an underhanded trick by scurrilous management have recruited. What I do object to is that the entire BA pilot workforce get tarred with this 'I'm holier than thou' brush when people choose to discuss these matters. The management, coupled with the accountants have bred this all. Certainly the take over of other airlines has caused pain and grief, that is never in doubt. The handling of these take overs was forced through by the BA management in yet another underhand manner. Possibly, at the time, more could have been done to accommodate the merger/acquisition in a people friendly manner but this is not, never has been nor ever will be the 'BA Managers Way'.
We live in a world where our industry is under constant attack from environmentalists, politics, terrorist, oil price etc. We need to achieve some stability in our terms and conditions before they too start to plummet down as yet another excel spreadsheet cost cutting measure. Only by standing up to the management, not bitching constantly between ourselves, can this be achieved across the entire profession not only BA.
I will watch and wait, should be a few interesting months.
Most of us have the ability to treat BA as a job just like any other. I don't feel any better than anyone else flying the skies but I do feel I have achieved a good balance in working lifestyle and my terms and conditions. Hence the reason for my coming to BA. Most line pilots will try and protect their terms and conditions as is natural in a cut throat industry where the bottom line is king and we are all under immense pressure from the spiraling price of oil.
I personally, and also the view of the vast majority of my colleagues, have no axe to grind with anyone who wishes to join OS. As has been stated before in these threads, in the occasional moment of clarity, there are many people who will be willing to accept these T&C's as there are not many alternatives at the moment. As a pilot workforce we should never be bitter towards anyone who wants to fly to support themselves and their families. It is snyd, pointless and degrading. The word 'Scab' is vulgar and wholly inappropriate.
I don't agree with attacking the workforce that an underhanded trick by scurrilous management have recruited. What I do object to is that the entire BA pilot workforce get tarred with this 'I'm holier than thou' brush when people choose to discuss these matters. The management, coupled with the accountants have bred this all. Certainly the take over of other airlines has caused pain and grief, that is never in doubt. The handling of these take overs was forced through by the BA management in yet another underhand manner. Possibly, at the time, more could have been done to accommodate the merger/acquisition in a people friendly manner but this is not, never has been nor ever will be the 'BA Managers Way'.
We live in a world where our industry is under constant attack from environmentalists, politics, terrorist, oil price etc. We need to achieve some stability in our terms and conditions before they too start to plummet down as yet another excel spreadsheet cost cutting measure. Only by standing up to the management, not bitching constantly between ourselves, can this be achieved across the entire profession not only BA.
I will watch and wait, should be a few interesting months.
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As for BALPA who seem so opposed to OS, can any BALPA type tell me why OS is different to the EasyJet continental salaries and T's and C's which BALPA have agreed? EasyJet's continental bases aren't even a subsidary airline - one AOC and one airline yet different T's and C's and I hear BALPA have agreed the new conditions for pilots at those bases.
Think of the Capt Johnny Blogs flying his Boeing Glass Cockpit for JOT6 airlines on 60 something K per annum, bugger all duty pay and no crew food and wondering if his outfit will last through the economic gloom and fuel price crisis - now he could get a better job with OS with much better T's and C's yet some of you guys expect him to pass up the opportunity in order to protect what you perceive to be a threat to your T's and C's whch are already miles ahead of his
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When will the moderator start deleting threads with "scab" etc. I find it all a bit OTT. 
People have a choice in life and so it should always be. If your family need feeding and open skies is a step up the ladder can you blame anyone for that. The militant posters here may say that OS will affect their income, but when you earn BA money you forget what it is like earning much much less.
Peace dudes D and F
People have a choice in life and so it should always be. If your family need feeding and open skies is a step up the ladder can you blame anyone for that. The militant posters here may say that OS will affect their income, but when you earn BA money you forget what it is like earning much much less. Peace dudes D and F
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wobble deep and fast
Wobble -
Please may I applaud your opinion.
Deep & Fast -
Hear hear.
In parenthesis, I think it most unlikely that the application or not of a small number of candidates for this airline will have any effect at all on the tactical and strategic outcome. What's next? Boycotting Eastern Europe as the JAR Licenced and 757 rated applicants come from that region. And those boys would see OS as a HUGE self betterment. Do we re-erect a curtain across Europe?
Negotiation, not union bully boy intimidation is the answer. BALPA are being every bit as specious as BA management.
As a pilot workforce we should never be bitter towards anyone who wants to fly to support themselves and their families. It is snyd, pointless and degrading. The word 'Scab' is vulgar and wholly inappropriate.
Deep & Fast -
When will the moderator start deleting threads with "scab" etc. I find it all a bit OTT. People have a choice in life and so it should always be.
In parenthesis, I think it most unlikely that the application or not of a small number of candidates for this airline will have any effect at all on the tactical and strategic outcome. What's next? Boycotting Eastern Europe as the JAR Licenced and 757 rated applicants come from that region. And those boys would see OS as a HUGE self betterment. Do we re-erect a curtain across Europe?
Negotiation, not union bully boy intimidation is the answer. BALPA are being every bit as specious as BA management.