Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

All not well at Brookfield!

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

All not well at Brookfield!

Old 23rd Jun 2008, 19:44
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 13
Happy Wanderer I have just hit 500 hrs with Ryanair as a Brookfield pilot and can tell you that no one from my course is unhappy. There is alot of rubbish out there but most people complaining (like CIPO) are angry pilots that didn't make it and don't even fly for Ryanair. Find me some Ryanair pilots that are complaining....good luck with your decision
Nicoals is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2008, 19:44
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Scotland
Age: 34
Posts: 548
Quick question for those on the new brookfields contract - can the 15euro line training charge be claimed back through taxation?
wbryce is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2008, 22:20
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: right behind you
Posts: 523
if only 500 hours with brookefield( by the by,brookefield is not ryanair) was the yard stick.we would all be more than happy.unfortunately being here over 10 years and seeing how low it has gotten and continues to go(still fighting i might add),i fear for young F.N.G.
it is true that everything is relative and when you start in a company with abysmal terms and conditions,along with not having experience of the real world.then i suppose it is a great place to work.then i ask myself why does no one with experience(except idiots like me) hang around any longer.where have all my friends and colleagues gone.nicoals you will have your turn in the limelight either individually or collectively,then let us hear how happy you are.
the grim repa is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2008, 10:18
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: 20 ADD 10 CPT
Posts: 157
Happy Wanderer, been with FR for about 1 year now, started as a 200h FO, have about 700 hours on the 738 now.
All in all a positive experience. Did the TR with SAS in Stockholm (now called Oxford Aviation), very good course. Line training well structured with some very nice line training captains, so even though stressfull and hard work, was also enjoyable. You do get some cash during line training, works out to about 700,- a month. Once line training complete I was offered a BRK contract at the base of my choice, would have preferred a RYR contract but was not possible if I wanted the base I asked for, funny that...
Anyway, after a year on the line I am still enjoying it, the money is pretty good, the roster is very good 5\4 is awesome, and I got the month off I asked for.
Think it all depend what base you end up at and what previous airline experience you have, I came from working as a consulting engineer in London for 10 years, and I can say that from that backround the BRK contract with Ryanair is a sweet deal, no more 60 hour weeks to get a job out on time and dealing with difficult clients. Now I can sit at FL370, looking at the view reading the newspaper and trying to figure out what I'm gonna do on my 4 days off.
I can imagine that as an experienced captain things might look very different, and I repect that, this is just my opinion so far.

All the best and hope it all works out for you

cheers

Goose
Sky Goose is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2008, 13:23
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: On the Camel's back
Posts: 395
Nicolas, you have a bad attitude. Though I suspect your uncouth jibes at CIPO are reserved for PPRuNe. Not so easy to do face to face is it?
Anyhow, the usual pattern of discussion about ryr is evident here. Anyone with no experience of other companies and with low hours thinks it great. Anyone with experience elsewhere or been in ryr long enough to open their eyes thinks it's a $hithole.
Sky Goose is in transition, likes it up til now but realises that it ain't so rosy as time goes by. It's a progression that happens to every newbie sooner or later, but mostly much sooner than you ever expected.
So here's the question for anyone contemplating ryr. Who do you listen to: those with minimal experience or those with lots? I know you don't want to hear the bad stuff but bear in mind that that first year of it all being a novelty lasts just that 1 year. Then you have 30 years of $hit til retirement.
CamelhAir is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2008, 13:38
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Age: 74
Posts: 116
He was a German . so does it really matter?
pilot999 is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2008, 14:01
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Midlands
Posts: 321
Nicoals and Goose - many thanks for the info, greatly apppreciated

Camelhair - good question. What I'm endeavouring to do here is listen to the good, bad and indifferent feedback, and then make an informed career decision. Granted, there appears to be significantly more critical stuff on this site than positive, but I'd probably expect that with a LCC.

Everyone's circumstances and motivations here will be different. I've had a previous (reasonably well paid) career, am married with no kids, have an fATPL and looking for that elusive bottom rung on the ladder - a starting point. Where else can someone with low hrs (311 in my case), no jet time, the prospect of flying a B738 and (eventually) getting paid for it go in the present climate? If got a job with FR, I'd probably have no intention of staying beyond 3-4 yrs anyway. With 2700+ hrs jet time under your belt, I reckon you could practically walk into another job, and one offering better T&Cs than FR. Indeed I know a number of FR grads who joined the company with precisely the same plan.

People on here moan about having to pay for this, that and the other with FR, and I find it all quite baffling. Unless you've worked for a legacy carrier or been in corporate, this is the norm. I've had a previous career with a UK blue chip as I said, and at no time did I expect them to pay for my suits, lunch and car parking. An FO at the FR open day I went to at EMA said jocks just bring their own food and drink onto the aircraft - just like a normal job surely?

What's exercising my mind more than anything else at the mo is the basing policy. As you have to agree to being based at any one of FR's 27 European bases when you join them, the last thing I'd want is to get the training over and done with, then get stuck in Marseille, Reus or Pisa for 6 mths - I gather this can and does happen. Probably OK if you're a single bloke, but not great if you're married like me.

For existing pilots, is this a realistic problem or do FR do their best to give you your stated preferences? I appreciate there's no g'tees...

HW
Happy Wanderer is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2008, 14:43
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: On the Camel's back
Posts: 395
If got a job with FR, I'd probably have no intention of staying beyond 3-4 yrs anyway. With 2700+ hrs jet time under your belt, I reckon you could practically walk into another job, and one offering better T&Cs than FR. Indeed I know a number of FR grads who joined the company with precisely the same plan.
Happy wanderer, I understand the attractiveness of this plan, it really does sound good. But there is a major, killer, flaw to it. When ryr was small, this plan really did work. Now all it does is shoot yourself in the foot. Why? Because the very act of working for ryr on lower T&C's than elsewhere allows ryr to undercut the rest, thus either forcing them to reduce their T&C's or go under. The current oil crisis is going to accelerate bankruptcies all over Europe. I can absolutely guarantee you that. More redundant, current and experienced pilots looking for less jobs, less airlines to go to, no-one else hiring. Do you see what this means for T&C's in the next couple of years?
So you ask me, what are the options?
You have already spent the money training so I appreciate you want to fly. You probably have very few options other than ryr. Wannabes in your position have to now accept that you will never earn a good living flying. Those of us farther up the ladder have to accept that our T&C's will continue to slide, and the rate will get faster, mainly because, let's be honest, wannabes will do the job for less.
So you either give it up and write off the training money or accept that the glory days are gone.
And yes, I know when you compare to other jobs, it might seem great. But I prefer to compare it to what it once was. Once upon a time, we didn't compare ourselves to lower incomes, we compared ourselves favourably to doctors, lawyers etc, the top earners of society. Unfortunately the very factors that made flying so attractive in the past have attracted people that have dragged us down into the crap job it is now.

ps on the base issue, it depends on supply and demand. Asking for a specific base is meaningless as you probably will be deliberately sent elsewhere (ryr don't want to see you happy - remember they want you to leave asap so they can fleece some other poor low payed mug for training).
CamelhAir is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2008, 15:32
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Midlands
Posts: 321
Quote: Wannabes in your position have to now accept that you will never earn a good living flying.

I guess it depends what you're used to. I've earned only investment income since taking redundancy, so anything would be welcome right now. Besides, there are FR FOs on the 'What is your take-home pay at the end of the month?' thread on this site giving amounts of 3600 after tax (2yr FO) and EUR5300 pre-tax (850 hrs, so presumably a yr 1 FO). Granted, we're in leaner times now, but seems a pretty reasonable wage to me!!

HW
Happy Wanderer is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2008, 16:12
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: On the Camel's back
Posts: 395
Happy wanderer, I understand your point here. However, if you can see it from my point of view, that is that in real terms the pay has plummeted. Unfortunately the understandable human nature that something is better than nothing is relentlessly forcing down pay. And there is now an entire generation of pilots that have no idea how good it once was and are prepared to accept crap as normal.
You'll forgive me for dismissing "a reasonable wage" as not really good enough when my real pay has been nuked in the last few years. At the rate the the decline is proceeding at, your "reasonable wage" is gonna be very unreasonable very soon.
CamelhAir is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2008, 18:15
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,510
Much of what Camel says is true; much of what others say is also true. Facts: General. An F/O with 1 year experience and fully released on line can, in most large jet airlines, earn 3500 - 4000 euros per month net. At age 23 that is massive when compared to 'apprentice' status jobs in other professions. Big bucks early on.

You then say, about RYR, I'll stay for 3-4 years. Problem there is that about the 4 year mark you will be in the command upgrade window. A command below 30 years old and a 50% salary rise. That is a lot to walk away from and go to the bottom of some major's seniority list. So, you might be sucked in for another 2 years to get the command time to carry with you. You now have to find a DEC vacancy that suits you. LoCo for 30 years is an unlikely option. Swapping similar horses brings slight changes, nothing substantial. So now it's back to RHS of a major and a 10 year wait for a LHS slot. It might be a better life style. but what a hit you'll take. Sometimes a 75% contract in your LoCo as captain might be a better option. Financially you might be better off over your whole career than swapping to a major, and with 25% more time off you might have the life style you wish for.

The times have changed, indeed. it is not what is was and never will be again. However, you may be able to engineer something more to your liking rather than foresaking your dreams. 6 years of hard graft, still a young person, perhaps, and then a quality life full of compromises.
RAT 5 is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2008, 19:33
  #52 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Emerald Isle
Posts: 85
Nicoals, as i am obviously being highlighted by yourself as a Ryanair slagger & a MS 2007 pro perhaps you should research a little more before singling one out as one who doesn't know what one is talking about.
I see you are a 500hr Brookfield pilot...............
Now i do know i am much better placed to voice my opinion along with the likes of the Grim Repa..........
CIPO is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2008, 12:43
  #53 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Emerald Isle
Posts: 85
Well said EPR. Nicoals has gone very quiet.............
CIPO is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2008, 15:45
  #54 (permalink)  
I call you back
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Alpha quadrant
Posts: 355
Happy Wanderer, been with FR for about 1 year now, started as a 200h FO, have about 700 hours on the 738 now.
All in all a positive experience. Did the TR with SAS in Stockholm (now called Oxford Aviation), very good course. Line training well structured with some very nice line training captains, so even though stressfull and hard work, was also enjoyable. You do get some cash during line training, works out to about 700,- a month. Once line training complete I was offered a BRK contract at the base of my choice, would have preferred a RYR contract but was not possible if I wanted the base I asked for, funny that...
Anyway, after a year on the line I am still enjoying it, the money is pretty good, the roster is very good 5\4 is awesome, and I got the month off I asked for.
Think it all depend what base you end up at and what previous airline experience you have, I came from working as a consulting engineer in London for 10 years, and I can say that from that backround the BRK contract with Ryanair is a sweet deal, no more 60 hour weeks to get a job out on time and dealing with difficult clients. Now I can sit at FL370, looking at the view reading the newspaper and trying to figure out what I'm gonna do on my 4 days off.
I can imagine that as an experienced captain things might look very different, and I repect that, this is just my opinion so far.

All the best and hope it all works out for you

cheers

Goose
You do know your management read this forum? You need a lot of important advice, quickly.
Faire d'income is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2008, 18:44
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: England
Posts: 65
That's real multi tasking, one eye on the view, one eye reading the paper and thinking at the same time - must be why we get paid so much.
aerobat is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2008, 23:36
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bear Island
Posts: 515
Danger

From a consumers point of view some chickens seem to be coming home to roost too. Ryanair's claim to be the low-cost choice is like most of their ramblings: high octane blarney.

A short tour of the net for the summer holidays I WILL be taking, and I find we can travel as human beings out of a London airport where a cattle prod is not a required accessory, allocated seating for wife and baby all for 30% of the cost of the Ryanair "experience" !.

In recent travels .. and there have been a many of them ... the scenario seems to repeat itself over and over again.

As this becomes wider knowledge to the traveling public, as it will over time, the company's game of smoke and mirrors will have come to an end.. thank goodness.

The final straw for us was seeing a member of cabin crew draping herself over a 737 cockpit in their in-flight magazine.

That confirmed everything we needed to know regarding the company attitude to employees and customers alike.

Teddy Robinson is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2008, 15:18
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: England
Age: 42
Posts: 65
you dont like sexy girls draping themselfs over things?? would you prefer a guy!!!??? lol

bring it on baby
virginpilot1087 is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2008, 20:07
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bear Island
Posts: 515
virgin pilot

Perhaps you miss the point.

Cabin crew at FR have a pretty poor deal through their T & C's, one can only wonder at the circumstances that have resulted in images appearing, of cabin crew, posed in the work environment in a Ryanair in-flight mag, read on board by pax.

Think about that.
Teddy Robinson is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2008, 21:00
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Northern Hemisphere
Posts: 45
How much of this thread has anything to do with 'Brookfield'? 15-20%?
Diamond_Dog is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2008, 21:07
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dre's mum's house
Posts: 1,432
Terms and Conditions

OK Teddy,

Tell us all about the terms and conditions: the ones which are so harsh.

I have worked all over Europe and Ryanair is the best job I have had: I get a fixed roster, and changes are minimal, I get paid huge amounts of money, I don't get hassled by management or crewing, I get great staff travel facilities, and I fly brand new airplanes.

I also get home every night and work with great people who are happy to be at work.

Your problem is??????

Teddy I did RTFQ: I was replying to post #58

Last edited by The Real Slim Shady; 12th Jul 2008 at 10:13. Reason: Response to Teddy
The Real Slim Shady is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.