Upgrade to left seat or run away?
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An old bald (or was that bold?) captain once told me 'never turn down a command or a type rating [in that order]'. I think he was 99.9% spot on. The other .1% is NAT Zulu! Hope whichever you choose works out for you!
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NAT Zulu, very good post. 
However, i think there are a few differences between FMC overheat and NAT Zulu. As far as i can make out than NAT Zulu jumped ship to a British longhaul carrier were FMC is thinking about going to the ME.
It's difficult to assist somebody in making a decision as we don't know al the personal info. FMC, if you are going to the ME do you see this as a career move where you will stay for the longterm? Or do you see it more as a way to get some longhaul experience and typerating?
If you know that you eventually would like to move back to your homecountry (guessing the UK) than i would take the command now and wait for an opening at either Virgin or BA. This way you are on the seniority list with a carrier you would (hopefully) like to stay with. Working in the ME or Asia for several years and than trying to go to BA or Virgin might put you a few years back, seniority wise.
Best of luck with your decision. CEJM
However, i think there are a few differences between FMC overheat and NAT Zulu. As far as i can make out than NAT Zulu jumped ship to a British longhaul carrier were FMC is thinking about going to the ME.
It's difficult to assist somebody in making a decision as we don't know al the personal info. FMC, if you are going to the ME do you see this as a career move where you will stay for the longterm? Or do you see it more as a way to get some longhaul experience and typerating?
If you know that you eventually would like to move back to your homecountry (guessing the UK) than i would take the command now and wait for an opening at either Virgin or BA. This way you are on the seniority list with a carrier you would (hopefully) like to stay with. Working in the ME or Asia for several years and than trying to go to BA or Virgin might put you a few years back, seniority wise.
Best of luck with your decision. CEJM
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A very tricky question indeed.
First of all...I have been flying over 6 years for one of the fastest growing airlines in the world...Yep...it IS based in the Middle East! I have had the opportunity to fly with all the latest types of heavy metal.
But without wanting to go in to a polemic regarding Middle Eastern Airlines, be aware that you will come here to work really hard (1000hrs/year) and that you will be looked upon as a slave.
While living and working in the Middle East used to be able to provide you with a certain lifestyle, these days many of that has dissappeared due to erroding T&Cs, dwindling exchange rates and huge pilot shortages.
So dont come here for the lifestyle, only come here for a certain career progression. Upgrades will be offered to you maybe or maybe not. Depending on the company you will choose...But it might easily take you 4 years from date of joining, a term which has proven itself to be too long for many others.
On the other hand, I think the old adagio of "never leave an upgrade or a typerating untouched" does not have that much value anymore than it used to have. Aviation is changing and for sure opportunities will be around for some years to come.
I am faced with the same question as you are facing. After 6 years here I am finally offered an upgrade. But both my wife and I are fed up with the place and its lifestyle. At the same time I am offered a job back home. Less money and less apealing airplanes, but with some sort of a normal lifestyle which allows me to be closer to family and real friends (exactly, the M.E. will bring you many people to know, but very very few real friends to have).
So 90% it is decided, I will leave the M.E and a possible upgrade behind in lieu of a better lifestyle....
All I want to say is....do what you think is right. Do not listen too much to others but follow your gut feeling. Dont get stuck following old sayings etc...
But remember....The grass is only greener on the other side as a result of the
underneath it!
First of all...I have been flying over 6 years for one of the fastest growing airlines in the world...Yep...it IS based in the Middle East! I have had the opportunity to fly with all the latest types of heavy metal.
But without wanting to go in to a polemic regarding Middle Eastern Airlines, be aware that you will come here to work really hard (1000hrs/year) and that you will be looked upon as a slave.
While living and working in the Middle East used to be able to provide you with a certain lifestyle, these days many of that has dissappeared due to erroding T&Cs, dwindling exchange rates and huge pilot shortages.
So dont come here for the lifestyle, only come here for a certain career progression. Upgrades will be offered to you maybe or maybe not. Depending on the company you will choose...But it might easily take you 4 years from date of joining, a term which has proven itself to be too long for many others.
On the other hand, I think the old adagio of "never leave an upgrade or a typerating untouched" does not have that much value anymore than it used to have. Aviation is changing and for sure opportunities will be around for some years to come.
I am faced with the same question as you are facing. After 6 years here I am finally offered an upgrade. But both my wife and I are fed up with the place and its lifestyle. At the same time I am offered a job back home. Less money and less apealing airplanes, but with some sort of a normal lifestyle which allows me to be closer to family and real friends (exactly, the M.E. will bring you many people to know, but very very few real friends to have).
So 90% it is decided, I will leave the M.E and a possible upgrade behind in lieu of a better lifestyle....
All I want to say is....do what you think is right. Do not listen too much to others but follow your gut feeling. Dont get stuck following old sayings etc...
But remember....The grass is only greener on the other side as a result of the
underneath it!
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Hi again...back from my trip.
Firelfly bob - think you managed in one sentence what I was trying to say in half a page!!! Well done sir! I agree!
FMC Overheat.....yes, I did jump to LH in the UK (VA) and not the ME, but I do think that this is not really that important. The ethos I was trying to communicate still applies to taking or leaving the command, I think - investigate thoroughly your options, including both positive and negative aspects, and then go for the one that seems to give you the most satisfaction to your OWN personal requirements. Remember it is horses for courses, so to speak, for every aspect you could consider! One mans desert sandpit prison is another mans nirvana and some may say the notion of working for a boss who has a penchant for bad sweaters and galactic space tourism a crazy idea but, right now, I love what I get from the job!
Try this...... I wrote a line down the middle of a piece of paper with "plus" at the top of one side and "minus"on the other and listed everything I could think of into the two columns. Try and block out everything else except what each point means to YOU. For example : "command at current airline" - obviously, on the face of it, a "plus" since it looks good on your CV but possibly not the same grade for the effect on your lifestyle maybe?
Nothing else I can say really, fella. It really is your choice. I guess the point is alot of people on here like to tell you WHAT to choose, when really, I think, the most important thing is HOW to choose!
Hope the fog is clearing slowly!! PM me anytime
Nat Z
Firelfly bob - think you managed in one sentence what I was trying to say in half a page!!! Well done sir! I agree!
FMC Overheat.....yes, I did jump to LH in the UK (VA) and not the ME, but I do think that this is not really that important. The ethos I was trying to communicate still applies to taking or leaving the command, I think - investigate thoroughly your options, including both positive and negative aspects, and then go for the one that seems to give you the most satisfaction to your OWN personal requirements. Remember it is horses for courses, so to speak, for every aspect you could consider! One mans desert sandpit prison is another mans nirvana and some may say the notion of working for a boss who has a penchant for bad sweaters and galactic space tourism a crazy idea but, right now, I love what I get from the job!
Try this...... I wrote a line down the middle of a piece of paper with "plus" at the top of one side and "minus"on the other and listed everything I could think of into the two columns. Try and block out everything else except what each point means to YOU. For example : "command at current airline" - obviously, on the face of it, a "plus" since it looks good on your CV but possibly not the same grade for the effect on your lifestyle maybe?
Nothing else I can say really, fella. It really is your choice. I guess the point is alot of people on here like to tell you WHAT to choose, when really, I think, the most important thing is HOW to choose!
Hope the fog is clearing slowly!! PM me anytime
Nat Z
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Having both the European and the ME experience in both seats for a number of years in a variety of types, I feel obliged to comment:
Nat Z, you must have not lived in the ME, or else you would have known that it IS of great importance where that job is. Flying longhaul for Virgin and EK is NOT the same! I can see our FMC friend being all excited about the prospect of going to work in the sand pit. Beware!!!
FMC, I see you have your mind set for "go", but before you do, ask yourself a few questions:
1. Are you ready to put your pants down for the relentless drive of bean counters to make more profit for their masters, and crush your spine and destroy your health in the process? Here, you won't have budy, rules and regulations or pilot union support for WHATEVER problem you are going to encounter.
Lifestyle? forget about it.
Savings? Give me a break!
Upgrade? Maybe.
Sunshine? Oh yes, cause if you are lucky to land that EK "dream job" you'll spend a daily average of 6 hours in DXB traffic jams.
Plenty of sunshine!!!!!!!
Ever wondered how life looks like in an artificial, luxurious and overpriced Mars outpost
?
If you find these are non-issues, come to the sandpit. Good luck
Please re-read excellent post of Sgnr De L'Atlantique
!
And, one more: before you start any ungrade, anywhere, get confident about the prospect of making it, or else........
Ps: On my way back to GOOD OLD EUROPE
Nat Z, you must have not lived in the ME, or else you would have known that it IS of great importance where that job is. Flying longhaul for Virgin and EK is NOT the same! I can see our FMC friend being all excited about the prospect of going to work in the sand pit. Beware
!!!FMC, I see you have your mind set for "go", but before you do, ask yourself a few questions:
1. Are you ready to put your pants down for the relentless drive of bean counters to make more profit for their masters, and crush your spine and destroy your health in the process? Here, you won't have budy, rules and regulations or pilot union support for WHATEVER problem you are going to encounter.
Lifestyle? forget about it.
Savings? Give me a break!
Upgrade? Maybe.
Sunshine? Oh yes, cause if you are lucky to land that EK "dream job" you'll spend a daily average of 6 hours in DXB traffic jams.
Plenty of sunshine
!!!!!!!Ever wondered how life looks like in an artificial, luxurious and overpriced Mars outpost
?If you find these are non-issues, come to the sandpit. Good luck
Please re-read excellent post of Sgnr De L'Atlantique
!And, one more: before you start any ungrade, anywhere, get confident about the prospect of making it, or else........
Ps: On my way back to GOOD OLD EUROPE
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FMC OVERHEAT
I am a similar age to you and I got my first command a year ago and it's on a medium jet. I have always wanted to go long haul but had not applied for anything at the time so accepting the command was an easier decision for me.
I have however found my command experience very rewarding and the past year has been a fantastic learning experience. If I had the chance to go long haul when the command was offered then I probably would of taken the command for the experience. Looking back and using hindsight - I would of taken the command even if it means I may delay a potential move to a bigger company. The way I see it at the moment is that despite not having the greatest roster plus other issues, the extra money is very nice and transformed my quality of life. that in turn will make me look very closely at other airlines when I do wish to move on. In otherwords I feel less likely to make a move which would be a mistake since I have more to loose now with T+Cs than I did as a F/O.
The command can open so many new doors (training etc) and you could find yourself joining a long haul airline in a couple of years time having a lot more to offer than your peers who are in the right hand seat.
If it is of any use then relation of mine who is a trainer in a long haul company strongly advised me to take the command and postpone a move.
Whatever you do... best of luck
I am a similar age to you and I got my first command a year ago and it's on a medium jet. I have always wanted to go long haul but had not applied for anything at the time so accepting the command was an easier decision for me.
I have however found my command experience very rewarding and the past year has been a fantastic learning experience. If I had the chance to go long haul when the command was offered then I probably would of taken the command for the experience. Looking back and using hindsight - I would of taken the command even if it means I may delay a potential move to a bigger company. The way I see it at the moment is that despite not having the greatest roster plus other issues, the extra money is very nice and transformed my quality of life. that in turn will make me look very closely at other airlines when I do wish to move on. In otherwords I feel less likely to make a move which would be a mistake since I have more to loose now with T+Cs than I did as a F/O.
The command can open so many new doors (training etc) and you could find yourself joining a long haul airline in a couple of years time having a lot more to offer than your peers who are in the right hand seat.
If it is of any use then relation of mine who is a trainer in a long haul company strongly advised me to take the command and postpone a move.
Whatever you do... best of luck
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NOTSURE....
You have missed my point. I am not saying that it is not important where the job is - just that it is important to ultimately make your own decision based on your own circumstances. I am quite aware that flying for Virgin is not the same as EK - my personal decision was based on my lifestyle requirements and EK did not offer enough of what I wanted on my wishlist. However, for others it may tick all the boxes. Like I said.....horses for courses!
Hope you find pastures greener!
Nat Z, you must have not lived in the ME, or else you would have known that it IS of great importance where that job is. Flying longhaul for Virgin and EK is NOT the same! I can see our FMC friend being all excited about the prospect of going to work in the sand pit. Beware!!!
!!!
Hope you find pastures greener!
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Lifestyle.... For me this is the answer to all the questions I have always had with regards to my career. So yes you can turn down a command and so you should if it is going to bring only misery, tiredness etc to you and your family.
Nowadays I don't care how big is my plane and where I sit... Where I live, the house I have, the car/bike I have and how much skiing or scuba diving I can do just like that without having to book holidays or anything like that is what makes me happy.
Like I say, I don't care where I sit because if I am happy in my environnment then I will stay in whichever company it might be and then the command will come. Actually I doesn't always take 15 years to manage to concile the two together...
So enjoying myself at work, at home and on the seniority list is what matters. We all have different aspirations but I found the lure of a LHS was often a con for me to stay. The rest of the company doesn't change...
Good luck with the choice anyway. Better to have one than none
Nowadays I don't care how big is my plane and where I sit... Where I live, the house I have, the car/bike I have and how much skiing or scuba diving I can do just like that without having to book holidays or anything like that is what makes me happy.
Like I say, I don't care where I sit because if I am happy in my environnment then I will stay in whichever company it might be and then the command will come. Actually I doesn't always take 15 years to manage to concile the two together...
So enjoying myself at work, at home and on the seniority list is what matters. We all have different aspirations but I found the lure of a LHS was often a con for me to stay. The rest of the company doesn't change...
Good luck with the choice anyway. Better to have one than none
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NAT Zulus first post is a very good one, my situation was exactly like his and sounds like we were and are in the same companies...
However, I was very close to jumping ship to go to a ME carrier and am so happy now that I didnt, fortunately a UK longhaul carrier saved me from the sand.
What I would add to NAT Zulus posts are that before going to the ME I would think very carefully as flying longhaul out there is not quite the same, you will be in a shiny new jet but you will fly your pants off with minimum rests and minimum days off at home or even downroute.
Good Luck.
However, I was very close to jumping ship to go to a ME carrier and am so happy now that I didnt, fortunately a UK longhaul carrier saved me from the sand.
What I would add to NAT Zulus posts are that before going to the ME I would think very carefully as flying longhaul out there is not quite the same, you will be in a shiny new jet but you will fly your pants off with minimum rests and minimum days off at home or even downroute.
Good Luck.
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Sorry, what I forgot to add was that for me the lifestyle involved with flying longhaul is far superior than what it would have been going to the left hand seat in my last company.
The novelty of a command would have quickly worn off after 5 early starts in a row...
The novelty of a command would have quickly worn off after 5 early starts in a row...
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Hi guys,
May I ask, as well, what you think about waiting for a LHS upgrade in a turboprop or moving to a jet (737, A320...) ?
I'm in my late 20ies, not ready to be upgraded yet, but enough hours to move on.
If I wait for the upgrade, I'm afraid that I would have to start again anyway as a FO in a jet. And as lifestyle would be the same, I'm not sure what would be the benefit of waiting for the upgrade...
Thanks for sharing your experience and your advice.
May I ask, as well, what you think about waiting for a LHS upgrade in a turboprop or moving to a jet (737, A320...) ?
I'm in my late 20ies, not ready to be upgraded yet, but enough hours to move on.
If I wait for the upgrade, I'm afraid that I would have to start again anyway as a FO in a jet. And as lifestyle would be the same, I'm not sure what would be the benefit of waiting for the upgrade...
Thanks for sharing your experience and your advice.
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Le nautilus, that's exactly what I was going to post until I scrolled down and saw that u had beaten me to it!
Could a guy for example who has a couple of years command experience on turbo props get fast tracked into the LHS seat of a jet after switching over?
After all, he already has the command experience and all that, just needs to get used to the different handling characteristics of the jet.
Could a guy for example who has a couple of years command experience on turbo props get fast tracked into the LHS seat of a jet after switching over?
After all, he already has the command experience and all that, just needs to get used to the different handling characteristics of the jet.
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Why?
I know this might sound stupid but:
Would you turn down a command offer on B737 (on a sh***y airline to leave for greener pastures? Let's say EK,EY and fly long haul?
I know on paper (ok pprune) this option may sound good, but do you think the reality is ?
All of the crap aside, it still is flying one jet from one airport to another.
It is just a JOB!!!!
Not any better, not any worse. Just a different perspective is all.
And one last point, what do you think the industry will be like in 5 more years.............?
My $0.02 worth
Would you turn down a command offer on B737 (on a sh***y airline to leave for greener pastures? Let's say EK,EY and fly long haul?
I know on paper (ok pprune) this option may sound good, but do you think the reality is ?
All of the crap aside, it still is flying one jet from one airport to another.
It is just a JOB!!!!
Not any better, not any worse. Just a different perspective is all.
And one last point, what do you think the industry will be like in 5 more years.............?
My $0.02 worth
Last edited by PITA; 15th Jan 2008 at 21:45.
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Hej Badboy,
For sure, we are more than 2 interested in the answer to this question
In my airline, some captains say it's better to move to a jet as soon as you have an opportunity since experience on a jet is more valuable.
Some other say it's good to have get a quick upgrade and then wait for some training duties (line training captain, tri/e) as this can also be very quick and be a big asset when you move on.
Obviously, all the pilots I talk with have not flown a jet yet so they may not have all the elements to answer. And that's why I expect here that some of you (with more "experience") will give their opinion: for a pilot is an experience as a captain on a turboprop an advantage when moving as a FO to a jet? what is the faster track to the LHS on a jet? some say flying a jet is not as fun as flying a turboprop, in that case it might be more interesting to spend more time in the tp...? etc.
Cheers
(sorry if my english is not perfect!
)
For sure, we are more than 2 interested in the answer to this question
In my airline, some captains say it's better to move to a jet as soon as you have an opportunity since experience on a jet is more valuable.
Some other say it's good to have get a quick upgrade and then wait for some training duties (line training captain, tri/e) as this can also be very quick and be a big asset when you move on.
Obviously, all the pilots I talk with have not flown a jet yet so they may not have all the elements to answer. And that's why I expect here that some of you (with more "experience") will give their opinion: for a pilot is an experience as a captain on a turboprop an advantage when moving as a FO to a jet? what is the faster track to the LHS on a jet? some say flying a jet is not as fun as flying a turboprop, in that case it might be more interesting to spend more time in the tp...? etc.
Cheers
(sorry if my english is not perfect!
)
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Thanks to anyone who replied so far.
LeNautilus and badboy raggamuffin: It depends on the airline you're working for. If there's a chance to go for a jet (B737,A320) I would take that opportunity since the hours on jets are more valuable. Unless you could get the upgrade on Props then move to jets within a year or two, that would be a different case.
LeNautilus and badboy raggamuffin: It depends on the airline you're working for. If there's a chance to go for a jet (B737,A320) I would take that opportunity since the hours on jets are more valuable. Unless you could get the upgrade on Props then move to jets within a year or two, that would be a different case.
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It is either BA or Virgin (sorry not sure which!) who state that they want X amount of hours on either a Boeing A/C or a Airbus...
So in my opinion I would jump of the turboprops if you can secure a boeing / airbus job and start building up your Jet hours.
Only my 2p worth...
So in my opinion I would jump of the turboprops if you can secure a boeing / airbus job and start building up your Jet hours.
Only my 2p worth...
