Aer Lingus - Direct Entry Pilots
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Here and there...
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Ok...Papa2and charlie, to be frank I had a bit or respect for what you were doing at the start of this thread. Now I just think you're a diiick. All this talk of doing this for the guys applying for BFS, in truth its about protecting your terms, no thing else.
Oooh you poor thing, wrapping it up in an aire of martyrdom. You have just shown your true colours and it disgusts me. And the pathetic threat that things are going to get worse if we take the job. well, we will see.
Grow up. And now I why the union has no backbone, if you have anything to do with it. You guys should have gone on strike to get your point across. And NO you wouldn't have been doing it for us, you would have being doing it to preserve the status quo in EI. You know that when you have a cheaper labour in the company, it reduces your own bargaining power at pay talks. You had the management in a position where you could have made a difference, but when it counted you didn't have the balls.
Well thank you for helping me make up my mind.
Oooh you poor thing, wrapping it up in an aire of martyrdom. You have just shown your true colours and it disgusts me. And the pathetic threat that things are going to get worse if we take the job. well, we will see.
Grow up. And now I why the union has no backbone, if you have anything to do with it. You guys should have gone on strike to get your point across. And NO you wouldn't have been doing it for us, you would have being doing it to preserve the status quo in EI. You know that when you have a cheaper labour in the company, it reduces your own bargaining power at pay talks. You had the management in a position where you could have made a difference, but when it counted you didn't have the balls.
Well thank you for helping me make up my mind.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: B Pier
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Max Tanking,
Come what may, the aeroplanes are going to fly anyway. The issue is whether they fly with guys on the current T&C's or on reduced T&C's. While it is of course about protecting the current jobs, it's also about protecting future jobs. That's sensible, it preserves unity and everyones prospects improve.
I assure you that your wildly inaccurate anti-IALPA comments are just that. Obviously however this is not the forum to give updates. No doubt you will learn the full story at some point.
Come what may, the aeroplanes are going to fly anyway. The issue is whether they fly with guys on the current T&C's or on reduced T&C's. While it is of course about protecting the current jobs, it's also about protecting future jobs. That's sensible, it preserves unity and everyones prospects improve.
I assure you that your wildly inaccurate anti-IALPA comments are just that. Obviously however this is not the forum to give updates. No doubt you will learn the full story at some point.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Dublin
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And NO you wouldn't have been doing it for us, you would have being doing it to preserve the status quo in EI. You know that when you have a cheaper labour in the company, it reduces your own bargaining power at pay talks.
When you get your F/o position at BFS (it certainly won't be Capt - EI will close before that happens) what will you do when the Warsaw base starts:
War - BFS - LHR - BFS - War rotations on a daily bases. Or maybe
War - BFS - BHX - BFS - War
Management claim that they are working for pittance a day and that there's now a glut of pilots in BFS - I mean they've just taken lots of flights from your base by stealth. If you WANT to resign and apply for the new Warsaw contract you'll be free to do so...but that will also mean you need to give up your (already paltry) pension and X days of leave, work under JAR ops conditions only, no seniority (oh wait you never had any) and sleep at the airport in case they need you.
Who are you going to call?
What are you going to do?
Who's going to help you?
You're all practically contractors - no-one will stick together. You'll knife each other in the back...again.
You'll be frustrated at the Warsaw guys for undercutting you, only this time comments like "And NO you wouldn't have been doing it for us, you would have being doing it to preserve the status quo in EI." will start to ring hollow. You remember an old base call Dublin that warned about these things, but you just saw money and took it. The other things didn't seem important at the time.
The Warsaw guys will claim that they're only doing it cos the missus is giving them grief about wanting to get home to the motherland....and YOU will find this frustrating. Oh and that even getting 1/10 of the working conditions that you had is better than what they had previously so why shouldn't they take it?
The solution?
If you truly think of IALPA :
"And now I why the union has no backbone, if you have anything to do with it. You guys should have gone on strike to get your point across."
You are so off the mark as to be funny. In 2-3 weeks, I shall quote these words back to you. Please be man enough to prepare to apologise, as we (IALPA) face very difficult times in the next few weeks for our members - including the BFS pilots who we wish to see join us, on our seniority list and on our working conditions.
Did you hear of the IALPA strike in 2002?
Do you believe we called of the strike in 2007 due to lack of balls?
Do you believe IALPA is a weak union?
Please take a look at history before you throw off the cuff remarks about IALPA. (google !)
I don't expect you to care, but I do expect you to get some facts straight.
As for :
"And the pathetic threat that things are going to get worse if we take the job. well, we will see. "
There was no threat intended there. That was a poorly constructed sentence on my part. It should have been something like : If the only problem you have is pestering from your wife - be prepared for management dumping a hell of a lot more on you if these working conditions get imposed on BFS pilots. You'll have no protection to prevent it.
It's time to stick together.
Then we're family.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: wicklow
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From a Southern Irish Newspaper
AIRLINE travellers may face more holiday misery as the fragile negotiations between Aer Lingus and its pilots have hit a major stumbling block, after the airline rejected the pilots' latest set of proposals.
Aer Lingus and its pilots have been involved in stilted negotiations since late August, when pilots suspended plans for a two-day strike.
That strike notice was prompted by pilots' opposition to the terms on offer for pilots at a new Aer Lingus base in Belfast, and unions have used the negotiations to push for major changes to those Belfast offers.
Resolution looked close on Tuesday, when pilots' union Ialpa sent Aer Lingus management proposals for employment at the Belfast base.
But Aer Lingus chief executive Dermot Mannion yesterday wrote to pilots and dismissed those proposals in their entirety, branding them unworkable and too costly and noting that they presented "no basis for resolution".
The development could have serious implications for the travelling public, as the pilots' strike notice remains in place, which means Aer Lingus' fleet can be grounded at just a week's notice.
Ialpa boss Evan Cullen said he could not comment on the union's next move until he had spoken to Ialpa's governing committee, many of whom are travelling this weekend. Mr Cullen added that a formal response would "probably come on Monday or Tuesday".
The difference between Aer Lingus and Ialpa centre on the terms pilots will work under.
Aer Lingus plans to employ pilots under terms and conditions that are more flexible than those in Dublin, while Ialpa's plans include giving Dublin pilots some special allowances for working in Belfast, and giving Belfast pilots similar terms and conditions to their colleagues in Dublin.
"What Ialpa proposed is an arrangement whereby not only are existing restrictive practices applied to Belfast operations but new ones are developed to supplement them," said Mr Mannion.
Unpalatable
A proposal about Aer Lingus paying some hotel expenses for Dublin pilots that travelled to Belfast is understood to have been particularly unpalatable.
Aer Lingus wants to recruit pilots on the open market, while Ialpa's proposals would see all captain slots filled from the Dublin ranks.
"The Ialpa proposals are designed to circumvent employment law in Northern Ireland, maximise Ialpa's ability to interfere with business decisions and ensure Belfast operations are restricted in terms of productivity, cost-effectiveness and flexibility," said Mr Mannion.
"Ialpa are asking us not to create a base, but a contrived and convoluted operation, whereby protection for current pilots is measured in terms of the inefficiency of the Belfast operation," he added.
Mr Mannion finished his letter by saying he would welcome a meeting with Ialpa, if there was a "genuine willingness from Ialpa to resolve these matters".
Aer Lingus and its pilots have been involved in stilted negotiations since late August, when pilots suspended plans for a two-day strike.
That strike notice was prompted by pilots' opposition to the terms on offer for pilots at a new Aer Lingus base in Belfast, and unions have used the negotiations to push for major changes to those Belfast offers.
Resolution looked close on Tuesday, when pilots' union Ialpa sent Aer Lingus management proposals for employment at the Belfast base.
But Aer Lingus chief executive Dermot Mannion yesterday wrote to pilots and dismissed those proposals in their entirety, branding them unworkable and too costly and noting that they presented "no basis for resolution".
The development could have serious implications for the travelling public, as the pilots' strike notice remains in place, which means Aer Lingus' fleet can be grounded at just a week's notice.
Ialpa boss Evan Cullen said he could not comment on the union's next move until he had spoken to Ialpa's governing committee, many of whom are travelling this weekend. Mr Cullen added that a formal response would "probably come on Monday or Tuesday".
The difference between Aer Lingus and Ialpa centre on the terms pilots will work under.
Aer Lingus plans to employ pilots under terms and conditions that are more flexible than those in Dublin, while Ialpa's plans include giving Dublin pilots some special allowances for working in Belfast, and giving Belfast pilots similar terms and conditions to their colleagues in Dublin.
"What Ialpa proposed is an arrangement whereby not only are existing restrictive practices applied to Belfast operations but new ones are developed to supplement them," said Mr Mannion.
Unpalatable
A proposal about Aer Lingus paying some hotel expenses for Dublin pilots that travelled to Belfast is understood to have been particularly unpalatable.
Aer Lingus wants to recruit pilots on the open market, while Ialpa's proposals would see all captain slots filled from the Dublin ranks.
"The Ialpa proposals are designed to circumvent employment law in Northern Ireland, maximise Ialpa's ability to interfere with business decisions and ensure Belfast operations are restricted in terms of productivity, cost-effectiveness and flexibility," said Mr Mannion.
"Ialpa are asking us not to create a base, but a contrived and convoluted operation, whereby protection for current pilots is measured in terms of the inefficiency of the Belfast operation," he added.
Mr Mannion finished his letter by saying he would welcome a meeting with Ialpa, if there was a "genuine willingness from Ialpa to resolve these matters".
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Ballymun
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Looks like DM is panicking.
He's now realised his advisors (LW) weren't all they were cracked up to be.
Just how will he get himself out the corner he foolishly put himself in???
No Sheikh or Bangladeshi baggage handlers here Derm....
He's now realised his advisors (LW) weren't all they were cracked up to be.
Just how will he get himself out the corner he foolishly put himself in???
No Sheikh or Bangladeshi baggage handlers here Derm....
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Top Bunk
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M T this profession is being destroyed by your ilk.No principles, no standards of decency, merely self interest. Maybe with such sterling attributes you should be applying to ryr?
Join Date: Aug 2007
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ok I've been checking this out for the last few days - you guys have put about £100k each into ei and now you want to do the company over for us guys who might be hired. Clearly you have money to burn. 
Join Date: Feb 2006
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The Bigger picture?
I see from the AL website that the deadline for applications for Pilots & Cabincrew for the BFS base was the 28th September. Previously it was August, this has been extended a month.
Perhaps the message is getting through and guys are observing the IALPA ban?
BR.
Perhaps the message is getting through and guys are observing the IALPA ban?
BR.
Join Date: May 2002
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I think that pilots should respect the IALPA recruitment ban. This BFS base is a clear attempt to bring Aer Lingus pilots under much reduced terms and conditions and it really is the 'thin end of the wedge' as they say for the Dublin based ones. This has all been handled in a very rushed manner. Mr Mannion needs to sit down and work with IALPA or no doubt he'll be faced with a very tricky situation before long...
Join Date: Aug 2007
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ok I've been checking this out for the last few days - you guys have put about £100k each into ei and now you want to do the company over for us guys who might be hired. Clearly you have money to burn.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: EGKK
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how many pilots do they need, and how many planes will be based in belfast?
By my reckoning that's about 40-50 new pilots for the base by Feb '08?
Join Date: May 2006
Location: N59W30
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direct entry captains into aer lingus interests.....from what i know the command process is a tough work out for the current guys. Humour me....are the new capts , just going to do a line check and thats it? it's a joke having parallel standards. Good old ryanair have the same yard stick for all.