FlyBe to acquire BA Connect (Crew thread - no spotters)
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speaking as an engineer from fraggle rock. we know our time is limited base maintenance to close by june. pension scheme to close but possibly a move to exeter. It would be nice if flybe actually says what will hapen to all the staff quickly so we can all start to breath again. 
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Wow - does anyone on this thread actually talk about fact? I'm guessing not because nobody actually knows naff all at the moment! Its just a bunch of moaning and whinging!
You say sod going onto the LHS of the Q400, for 6 grand more, 150hrs more a year and a base change. Well excuse me but unless you happen to have a job lined up in MAN on the LHS with Titan then who else can you move to which won't involve more flying hours per year than BACon work you? And if it was someone offering you an A320 job you would more than consider dragging wifey and baby across the UK for it. You want a lifestyle well lets remind ourselves who flies tours and nightstops and who doesn't and who promises you to be home every night unless you go tech down route!
Let's stick to fact. Many people on here have repeatedly pointed out how short of Captains Flybe is. People keep saying that anyone with 2500 hours total time will definitely be in line for LHS (provided they have a reasonable record), people repeatedly point out the new proposed payscales for LHS Q400 (£53,500 by 2008-09), which isn't exactly a bad offer.
I don't understand why everyone is putting a complete downer on something which isn't necessarily going to turn out that way. Let's face it there is nowhere else for most of you to go - recruitment is over for the winter unless you fancy paying £23000 to Easy or Ryanair for a base move, a reduced starting salary and a heck of a lot more flying per year than you do now. Most of you moved to your BACon bases when you joined them, esp the low houred guys, so now heres a chance to move back to where u want to actually be living. Here's a chance to get in the LHS without waiting another 3 years. Here's a chance to build more flying hours, get involved in training, earn more money, and hopefully if we all stick together and give BALPA our backing get a better/more reasonable scheduling agreement for everyone involved.
Oh by the way, did anyone tell you guys at BACon that our Q400 trainers are about to move onto jet salary plus increment? No? Well that is over £60,000!
By all means feel free to jump ship before even setting foot in Flybe, but we aren't bad people, your working day will generally be with a fun crew, but you know what if you don't drop the arrogance, moaning, complaining and whinning, you are going to make the atmosphere at Flybe unbearable and us lot already at Flybe don't want that.
And whilst you're moaning about hard bad your life is by having to move on to the most modern turboprop from a smaller, lighter weight, same speed, same range, more fuel burning, uneconomical jet, consider those of us at Flybe who are seeing our careers be delayed and go down the drain if the seniority lists get merged, and everything we were promised get given to people whose company we have rescued from closure. Let's not forget that every single F/O at Flybe is going to have to watch as our new colleagues join our company in the RHS of a small regional jet carrying less people around,and getting paid more for the priviledge of it. I think if anything, the Flybe pilots are the ones who are entitled to moan on this thread, I think it is us who is losing out a lot in the short term.
You want to merge seniority lists, well whilst you are working hard in the sim, retraining on the Q400, which undoubtedly you can't be bonded for because its a forced move by your employer, don't forget to say hi to your TRI/TRE who will now no doubt be more junior to you, whilst sacraficing a lot over the past few years to make Flybe what it is, for little reward and little lifestyle. They are only just getting what they deserve, so please tell us at Flybe why we should penalise ourselves and step aside and give you our place on our seniority list? Just because thats the only way you would consider joining our company? Well its been nice meeting you, best of luck with that CV. Just remind us who is looking for 145 pilots? Or for that matter who is still recruiting? Easy, Ryan, ... errrr ... GB is finished for the winter, BMed is finished for the winter, the charters are finished for the winer ... Emirates, Qatar, Gulf (but not so sure with a 145 or Q300 rating) ... Globespan .... Aer Arran maybe, Air SW maybe ... Eastern ... But yes you are right onwards and upwards it is for you. Oh there is that All Nippon Contract in Japan if you have a Dash 8 rating.
Get over it, you have a job at Xmas rather than a P45. Grow up, stop moaning and lets talk about facts and how the hell to make this work for eveyone involved! Let's wait and see what actually happens, as and when more details are released. Until then stop crying Wolf Wolf Wolf and wait and see whether its a Wolf or a Bunny Rabbit in the bushes.
You say sod going onto the LHS of the Q400, for 6 grand more, 150hrs more a year and a base change. Well excuse me but unless you happen to have a job lined up in MAN on the LHS with Titan then who else can you move to which won't involve more flying hours per year than BACon work you? And if it was someone offering you an A320 job you would more than consider dragging wifey and baby across the UK for it. You want a lifestyle well lets remind ourselves who flies tours and nightstops and who doesn't and who promises you to be home every night unless you go tech down route!
Let's stick to fact. Many people on here have repeatedly pointed out how short of Captains Flybe is. People keep saying that anyone with 2500 hours total time will definitely be in line for LHS (provided they have a reasonable record), people repeatedly point out the new proposed payscales for LHS Q400 (£53,500 by 2008-09), which isn't exactly a bad offer.
I don't understand why everyone is putting a complete downer on something which isn't necessarily going to turn out that way. Let's face it there is nowhere else for most of you to go - recruitment is over for the winter unless you fancy paying £23000 to Easy or Ryanair for a base move, a reduced starting salary and a heck of a lot more flying per year than you do now. Most of you moved to your BACon bases when you joined them, esp the low houred guys, so now heres a chance to move back to where u want to actually be living. Here's a chance to get in the LHS without waiting another 3 years. Here's a chance to build more flying hours, get involved in training, earn more money, and hopefully if we all stick together and give BALPA our backing get a better/more reasonable scheduling agreement for everyone involved.
Oh by the way, did anyone tell you guys at BACon that our Q400 trainers are about to move onto jet salary plus increment? No? Well that is over £60,000!
By all means feel free to jump ship before even setting foot in Flybe, but we aren't bad people, your working day will generally be with a fun crew, but you know what if you don't drop the arrogance, moaning, complaining and whinning, you are going to make the atmosphere at Flybe unbearable and us lot already at Flybe don't want that.
And whilst you're moaning about hard bad your life is by having to move on to the most modern turboprop from a smaller, lighter weight, same speed, same range, more fuel burning, uneconomical jet, consider those of us at Flybe who are seeing our careers be delayed and go down the drain if the seniority lists get merged, and everything we were promised get given to people whose company we have rescued from closure. Let's not forget that every single F/O at Flybe is going to have to watch as our new colleagues join our company in the RHS of a small regional jet carrying less people around,and getting paid more for the priviledge of it. I think if anything, the Flybe pilots are the ones who are entitled to moan on this thread, I think it is us who is losing out a lot in the short term.
You want to merge seniority lists, well whilst you are working hard in the sim, retraining on the Q400, which undoubtedly you can't be bonded for because its a forced move by your employer, don't forget to say hi to your TRI/TRE who will now no doubt be more junior to you, whilst sacraficing a lot over the past few years to make Flybe what it is, for little reward and little lifestyle. They are only just getting what they deserve, so please tell us at Flybe why we should penalise ourselves and step aside and give you our place on our seniority list? Just because thats the only way you would consider joining our company? Well its been nice meeting you, best of luck with that CV. Just remind us who is looking for 145 pilots? Or for that matter who is still recruiting? Easy, Ryan, ... errrr ... GB is finished for the winter, BMed is finished for the winter, the charters are finished for the winer ... Emirates, Qatar, Gulf (but not so sure with a 145 or Q300 rating) ... Globespan .... Aer Arran maybe, Air SW maybe ... Eastern ... But yes you are right onwards and upwards it is for you. Oh there is that All Nippon Contract in Japan if you have a Dash 8 rating.
Get over it, you have a job at Xmas rather than a P45. Grow up, stop moaning and lets talk about facts and how the hell to make this work for eveyone involved! Let's wait and see what actually happens, as and when more details are released. Until then stop crying Wolf Wolf Wolf and wait and see whether its a Wolf or a Bunny Rabbit in the bushes.
Last edited by AlphaCharlie; 20th Nov 2006 at 08:56.
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Well said Alpha Charlie...
It seems that some people want to negotiate the deal down the drain as if that is better than working for Flybe, there are not 450 pilot jobs to be had out there, so the majority of us are going to be joining Flybe, or the dole queue if the deal falters. I for one am quite pleased about the proposed deal, and there are plenty in the crew room at Manchester that are, the prospect of being able to bid for a base closer to home is a real plus in my book and also to work for an organisation that has one clear objective in life, to be a lo cost regional operator, without the constraints of a restrictive corporation. It is going to be refreshing to work for an outfit that are buying new aircraft, that are expanding routes and developing bases - a real change.
It seems that some people want to negotiate the deal down the drain as if that is better than working for Flybe, there are not 450 pilot jobs to be had out there, so the majority of us are going to be joining Flybe, or the dole queue if the deal falters. I for one am quite pleased about the proposed deal, and there are plenty in the crew room at Manchester that are, the prospect of being able to bid for a base closer to home is a real plus in my book and also to work for an organisation that has one clear objective in life, to be a lo cost regional operator, without the constraints of a restrictive corporation. It is going to be refreshing to work for an outfit that are buying new aircraft, that are expanding routes and developing bases - a real change.
Thread Starter
Alph Charlie
Well said, most of the moaners are pobably going anyway so I think you will find that the people wanting to come across will be quite laid back about it all. Most of us have done the 6/7 sector days in the past and are not obsesed with willy / airframe and thrust size.
There will be a lot of rubbish spoken about scheduling agrenments and how they inhibit profitability. Bo^*"ks. One of the reason's why Bacon managment couldn't make money was because they could only manage to roster 146 crews for 40% or les of a standard roster. 900hrs in 3 years for one FO. The scheduling agreement didn't cause that. Management complained that the Agreement was hammering them as they couldn't work a small number of 145 pilots past certain upper limits without incurring costs. The CC were always open to looking at these things, but only when managment could show that they could run a half competent rostering system within the rules which didn't result in one group of pilots working literaly twice as hard as another. Hence, the agreement was doing what it was supposed to do by forcing managment to run a tight efficient ship. Unfortunately, they never got anywhere near achieving this.
It was a shame really, siunce we hae a few very good people in rostering. Unfortunately, they were all subject to massive disruption and change as DE hacked away at the bases and were trying to work within systems inherited from good old British airways Regional (BAR). Yes, for a month or two when BAR took control, we were rostered the BAR way. That all had to be unpicked at great expense and with help from the BALPA reps.
i.e. "Why are you now trying to nightstop two crews and airframe in Sumburgh when we have been doing the same schedule with one for years?" The list is endless, but BAR were in control and it had to be done their way. After all their computer said....
Money down the drain.
Also, there was the farcical situation where managment negotiated a special deal with a group of pilots seconded to Bacon which meant that they would only be worked to a level 15%lower than the rest. If they were rostered and accepted work above this to the max levels allowed for the rest of the pilots, they would have gained themselves overtime payments of £6000+ per year. This was sorted out on the quiet by one of our good old BA managers and had he not been trying to be clever by deliberately keeping the BAcon BALPA reps out of the loop, it would have been stopped. As it happened, this didn't become an issue because thanks to the touring roster system, most RJ pilots didn't do much more than 500 hrs per year. Four nights away, five sectors flown etc. The list is endless.
Most of us are just relieved to be getting back to a managment who seem to understand how to operate aeroplanes on regional routes.
Well said, most of the moaners are pobably going anyway so I think you will find that the people wanting to come across will be quite laid back about it all. Most of us have done the 6/7 sector days in the past and are not obsesed with willy / airframe and thrust size.
There will be a lot of rubbish spoken about scheduling agrenments and how they inhibit profitability. Bo^*"ks. One of the reason's why Bacon managment couldn't make money was because they could only manage to roster 146 crews for 40% or les of a standard roster. 900hrs in 3 years for one FO. The scheduling agreement didn't cause that. Management complained that the Agreement was hammering them as they couldn't work a small number of 145 pilots past certain upper limits without incurring costs. The CC were always open to looking at these things, but only when managment could show that they could run a half competent rostering system within the rules which didn't result in one group of pilots working literaly twice as hard as another. Hence, the agreement was doing what it was supposed to do by forcing managment to run a tight efficient ship. Unfortunately, they never got anywhere near achieving this.
It was a shame really, siunce we hae a few very good people in rostering. Unfortunately, they were all subject to massive disruption and change as DE hacked away at the bases and were trying to work within systems inherited from good old British airways Regional (BAR). Yes, for a month or two when BAR took control, we were rostered the BAR way. That all had to be unpicked at great expense and with help from the BALPA reps.
i.e. "Why are you now trying to nightstop two crews and airframe in Sumburgh when we have been doing the same schedule with one for years?" The list is endless, but BAR were in control and it had to be done their way. After all their computer said....
Money down the drain.Also, there was the farcical situation where managment negotiated a special deal with a group of pilots seconded to Bacon which meant that they would only be worked to a level 15%lower than the rest. If they were rostered and accepted work above this to the max levels allowed for the rest of the pilots, they would have gained themselves overtime payments of £6000+ per year. This was sorted out on the quiet by one of our good old BA managers and had he not been trying to be clever by deliberately keeping the BAcon BALPA reps out of the loop, it would have been stopped. As it happened, this didn't become an issue because thanks to the touring roster system, most RJ pilots didn't do much more than 500 hrs per year. Four nights away, five sectors flown etc. The list is endless.
Most of us are just relieved to be getting back to a managment who seem to understand how to operate aeroplanes on regional routes.
Last edited by biddedout; 20th Nov 2006 at 09:22.
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When we see pax at check-in they all assume we will all become FLYBE as they dont understand the difference between BAR and BACON and that there is potentially 100's if not over 1000 Ground Staff going to be out of a job around BA's non London bases anytime after the 31st Decemeber IMHO.
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Chuffer, yeah we all know Easy are recruiting, the point was more feel free to put in an application, but the 145 does not qualify for direct entry, so if you fancy spending £23k then good on you.
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EasyJet alone need 450 pilots by next June...
Well so the rumour goes, but even Easy could not handle 450 pilots at once, that many takes a long time to get through. There are plenty of airlines that claim to want pilots, but there are not many with the trainers to train all these recruits let alone sim slots, alongside all the recurrent training that they have to do as well. So yes there might be a 'demand' for pilots but there is not the training capacity to handle them.
This is why the Flybe purchase actually is a good thing for Bacon, the alternative was closure, Flybe can pick and choose how to integrate the pilots into their operation at their speed, keep routes covered with the Ex Bacon aircraft until they can get all through their training requirements, there are not that many Q400 sims in the world and they are busy now.
So no, there are not 450 opportunites out there now, there might be over time, but not all at once!
Well so the rumour goes, but even Easy could not handle 450 pilots at once, that many takes a long time to get through. There are plenty of airlines that claim to want pilots, but there are not many with the trainers to train all these recruits let alone sim slots, alongside all the recurrent training that they have to do as well. So yes there might be a 'demand' for pilots but there is not the training capacity to handle them.
This is why the Flybe purchase actually is a good thing for Bacon, the alternative was closure, Flybe can pick and choose how to integrate the pilots into their operation at their speed, keep routes covered with the Ex Bacon aircraft until they can get all through their training requirements, there are not that many Q400 sims in the world and they are busy now.
So no, there are not 450 opportunites out there now, there might be over time, but not all at once!
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Flybe/ Bacon Seniority merger
I notice there is a lot of talk about seniority effects in the merger/takeover.
I have some contact with high flyer industrial lawyers in the uk. The general view is that airline seniority lists are not lawful due to the new anti age descrimination laws which came into effect in October. The view is that it is a form of indirect age descrimination and is bound to be declared illegal when the first case comes to an IR tribunal. Similar test cases have been set in Eire (not aviation ones) where the EU law was enacted earlier than the UK. You can pay more to reward length of service but you cannot deny a job position on length of service. To do so would be considered denying one age group younger or older from an opportunity. It looks as if in the future all Captain positions will have to be done by interview like any other job taking into account experience, ratings, suitability, etc. Everybody with the necessary qualifications would have to be given an opportunity to apply for the captain position. A bidline system for trips might be OK as it might be considered a length of service benefit, but not the actual job promotion proccess. The airlines are aware of this apparently, they are just waiting for the first move by an employee. Balpa I feel is hoping it will go away. When somebody from Bacon or flybe feels agrieved we may see the first case in an IR court in the UK. If these lawyers are correct in their forecast, the changes to the pilot promotion world in the EU will be immense.
I have some contact with high flyer industrial lawyers in the uk. The general view is that airline seniority lists are not lawful due to the new anti age descrimination laws which came into effect in October. The view is that it is a form of indirect age descrimination and is bound to be declared illegal when the first case comes to an IR tribunal. Similar test cases have been set in Eire (not aviation ones) where the EU law was enacted earlier than the UK. You can pay more to reward length of service but you cannot deny a job position on length of service. To do so would be considered denying one age group younger or older from an opportunity. It looks as if in the future all Captain positions will have to be done by interview like any other job taking into account experience, ratings, suitability, etc. Everybody with the necessary qualifications would have to be given an opportunity to apply for the captain position. A bidline system for trips might be OK as it might be considered a length of service benefit, but not the actual job promotion proccess. The airlines are aware of this apparently, they are just waiting for the first move by an employee. Balpa I feel is hoping it will go away. When somebody from Bacon or flybe feels agrieved we may see the first case in an IR court in the UK. If these lawyers are correct in their forecast, the changes to the pilot promotion world in the EU will be immense.
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Biddeout
Quite correct.
Hudson Bay
Ooh lets see. The last time I did 900 hours in a year, or even close to 100 in a month was...err...about 3 years ago. I average about 60 hrs a month currently, and that was over the summer. I've done, I think, 3, maybe 4, 6 sector days in over 5 years. Things change Hudson so unfortunately you no longer know what you're talking about...Don't forget that!
And I bet they'd all like to have their jobs back now. Wouldn't they?! 2 new sims at Farnborough, not Stockholm, Toronto or Seattle for weeks at a time. Jet trainers salary, most of these boys would be on 70-75k basic.
True, but have YOU seen the latest pay offer? No, didn't think so.
I think the general idea is that the 195 will be put into bases where they are needed and unless people are prepared to move, it will be inhabited by those people who are aready in those bases
Hudson Bay
6 sector days working to max hours, don't forget that
The 5 TRE's that have just left Flybe have led by example
Not worth waiting for to earn 52 grand
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FlyeBe/Bacon seniority Merger
A test case in Eire where civil servants were phohibited from applying for a higher position until they had at least 5 years service was deemed indirect age descrimination in EU law. A seniority list operates the same way,it denies one group young or old from obtaining a position on merit, qualifications, etc. My legal friends assure me seniority lists for airline jobs are the same as this Eire case and cannot survive in an IR court. It is only a matter of time before an aggrieved pilot takes his employer to court and the FlyBe/ Bacon merger seems a fertile ground for such action, judging by a lot of posts.
Thread Starter
Yes, but it is generally thought that seniority is linked to age. If BA is used as an example (and it will) then clearly there is an indirect link between seniority and age. If a relatively young suitably qualified and experienced FO in BA sees a command opportunity come up and fails to get it against someone with high seniority through a system indirectly linked to age then they are likely to win an ET. Likewise, if a very junior person in a company like BA challenges the fact that they aren't going to get a weekend off in their first 8 years due to a seniority based sytem then they are likely to win. This applies to many other companies.
I am sure the lawmakers would be willing to acept a compromise alternative system which reflects the complex and to some extent unique situation in this industry where Commands also carry a legal responsibility. It could be argued that the application for a comand could be regarded as an application for a managment postion rather than shop floor - Now there's a debate.
The industry and Unions could come up with a sensible compromise which would be acceptable, but I can understand the sofar head in the sand approach as it will be extremely complex. Wait until someone makes a challenge and then see how it goes seems to be the general SOP in this industry.
Also, this industry is rife with the funny handshake and old squadron tie brigade so without a massive culture shift, it is unlikely that many companies could manage to put togeter any sort of fair merrit based system. it probably works OK in easy where there is a shortage of qualified FO's, but how would BA select Captains based on anything other than seniority. Seniority lists are far form ideal, but until there are new workable systems in place (at great cost to the beancounters) then they are all we have.
I am sure the lawmakers would be willing to acept a compromise alternative system which reflects the complex and to some extent unique situation in this industry where Commands also carry a legal responsibility. It could be argued that the application for a comand could be regarded as an application for a managment postion rather than shop floor - Now there's a debate.
The industry and Unions could come up with a sensible compromise which would be acceptable, but I can understand the sofar head in the sand approach as it will be extremely complex. Wait until someone makes a challenge and then see how it goes seems to be the general SOP in this industry.
Also, this industry is rife with the funny handshake and old squadron tie brigade so without a massive culture shift, it is unlikely that many companies could manage to put togeter any sort of fair merrit based system. it probably works OK in easy where there is a shortage of qualified FO's, but how would BA select Captains based on anything other than seniority. Seniority lists are far form ideal, but until there are new workable systems in place (at great cost to the beancounters) then they are all we have.
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FlyBe/Bacon Senioity Merger
I understand the logic of retaining the current system, but if it is deemed not to be legal, the seniority lists will go by the board. Granted Balpa will not rock the boat, but individuals for personal gain will. Just 1 successfull case will bring all seniority lists crashing down, to be replaced by interviews etc. I do not give the current system a year before it is challenged in an IR court. The airlines may get some advantage out of it .Quiet do as your told pilots get promoted, others do not.
I can assure you that easyJet ARE currently accepting emb145 applications for Direct Entry! That way, they will be able to draw on a pool of very experienced regional/european operators, and prevent flybe from getting their hands on them!
For the other vociferous posters with the 'We are saving your bacon' (pun intended!) attitude, you may be well advised to wind your necks in... as suggested by a few more diplomatic posters... those lovely shiny flybe planes won't make much money parked up side by side at EXT if you have alienated the crews you need to fly them.
Personally, I don't give a sh!t .... I'm off to easy in the LHS of a shiny new bus!
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you may be well advised to wind your necks in...those lovely shiny flybe planes won't make much money parked up side by side at EXT if you have alienated the crews you need to fly them