bmi (industrial action vote)
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Erm,Mcdatabase & others I was at Midland for 6 yrs 20 yrs ago,and reading this thread NOTHING has changed.
I witnessed 2 ballots for action and clearly remember watching the "fence sitters" management wanabees and non balpa members deliberate upto 48 hrs before the planned action.I was an FO with less to lose then but still the principle is the same.Accept below standard Ts&Cs or stand up and be counted with your fellow colleagues.I was truly shocked at how we as a union refused to accept a 4% pay cut in order to retain 30 laid off pilots and equally watch action called off at the last minute.Knowles laughed at us.
Like many I left months later and the grass sometimes is greener and I believe after many of us left for BA,Cx,Ek,Vs etc etc terms did improve for the better.
Sitting on the sidelines means you potentially gain from the risk of others who truly want to better their lot,BM management havent altered their view and
by accepting their offer you play into their hands.
little wonder youve been there 20 years then.
Stand up as a GROUP and be heard,the directors make an extremely good living through your efforts,they can and should afford to pay what you value yourselves at at Midland.The public will still travel,and so will Bishop,Wolfe & Co in their jags and private jets.
Good luck guys.BM was great fun,great people,big turnover and for me never a long term option,but has anyone at Toad Hall asked why BM hire train and lose so many pilots.IF they looked after their pilots by giving them the best Ts&Cs they would retain pilots and not be a training airline for many.
Clearly that philosophy has not been embraced not in the last 20 yrs at least.The bar awaits.QB
I witnessed 2 ballots for action and clearly remember watching the "fence sitters" management wanabees and non balpa members deliberate upto 48 hrs before the planned action.I was an FO with less to lose then but still the principle is the same.Accept below standard Ts&Cs or stand up and be counted with your fellow colleagues.I was truly shocked at how we as a union refused to accept a 4% pay cut in order to retain 30 laid off pilots and equally watch action called off at the last minute.Knowles laughed at us.
Like many I left months later and the grass sometimes is greener and I believe after many of us left for BA,Cx,Ek,Vs etc etc terms did improve for the better.
Sitting on the sidelines means you potentially gain from the risk of others who truly want to better their lot,BM management havent altered their view and
by accepting their offer you play into their hands.
little wonder youve been there 20 years then.
Stand up as a GROUP and be heard,the directors make an extremely good living through your efforts,they can and should afford to pay what you value yourselves at at Midland.The public will still travel,and so will Bishop,Wolfe & Co in their jags and private jets.
Good luck guys.BM was great fun,great people,big turnover and for me never a long term option,but has anyone at Toad Hall asked why BM hire train and lose so many pilots.IF they looked after their pilots by giving them the best Ts&Cs they would retain pilots and not be a training airline for many.
Clearly that philosophy has not been embraced not in the last 20 yrs at least.The bar awaits.QB
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I worked for baby
great people....nasty management, in my humble opinion
I hope the whole thing goes well......
good luck, have never seen anything like the terrible attitude the management have towards their employees.........
great people....nasty management, in my humble opinion
I hope the whole thing goes well......
good luck, have never seen anything like the terrible attitude the management have towards their employees.........
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I can't actually believe that mccdatabase & Skylion are actually working as pilots for real.
Their opinions are straight out of the management spin book.
Neither of them mention for instance the DoOs bullyboy phonecalls to those vulnerable new f/os.
Why not, lets hear your views about that. On the other hand - let's not!
Quod Boy
It's obvious there are people that just don't get, or don't want to get the bigger picture, possibly because of their short termism.
Their opinions are straight out of the management spin book.
Neither of them mention for instance the DoOs bullyboy phonecalls to those vulnerable new f/os.
Why not, lets hear your views about that. On the other hand - let's not!
Quod Boy
It's obvious there are people that just don't get, or don't want to get the bigger picture, possibly because of their short termism.
I have never condoned bullying from management, I too find some of the tactics they employ rather distasteful, however is this proposed industrial action about management behavior or is it about an enforced pay rise,if it is the former there are better ways to deal with the issue than risking the future of a long standing company in a rather fragile market, if it is the latter even if action did suceed in raising the rise by maybe a per cent or so the disruption and inconvenience to our customers would cause even more of them to turn to other carriers in which case the tiny profits already made would be wiped out and we would all be back in the same situation next year ! this is not management spin as you call it, IT IS COMMON SENSE, there is a right time to play hardball and there is also a right time to be realistic, too many companies have gone down the pan because a few militants thought they knew better, I do not want to see bmi be another
I am sorry that my humble opinion seems to provoke such vitriolic responses from some of my colleagues but if nothing else it seems to be creating discussion and hopefully is making everyone think very carefully before setting in motion a process that could be disasterous for us all
I am sorry that my humble opinion seems to provoke such vitriolic responses from some of my colleagues but if nothing else it seems to be creating discussion and hopefully is making everyone think very carefully before setting in motion a process that could be disasterous for us all
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Whilst there are many reasons to only use industrial action as a last resort, it does actually have a two fold effect, as well as increasing the pay, it also teaches managers that you can only push people so far, and in my experience, means that for a while after the action, management actually engage their brains in dealing with staff.
Edited for spelling and content!
Edited for spelling and content!
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mccdatabase
I don't know how many times you needed to be told how to scan your instruments, or how to successfully start a jet engine BUT you have by now been told about 300 times that NOBODY WANTS TO STRIKE.
However, a solid yes vote will avert a strike because management can't actually allow it. They will have to listen and talk over a big shiny effin table!
Please for $£*& sake don't keep harping on about the damage a strike may cause, just watch and when it comes to actually going on strike, then bring your submissive and frightened case up again!!!!!
No company has gone under because a strike took it down - not one! If however this one does, then it was meant to happen, as the business was not viable to continue in any case!
I don't know how many times you needed to be told how to scan your instruments, or how to successfully start a jet engine BUT you have by now been told about 300 times that NOBODY WANTS TO STRIKE.
However, a solid yes vote will avert a strike because management can't actually allow it. They will have to listen and talk over a big shiny effin table!
Please for $£*& sake don't keep harping on about the damage a strike may cause, just watch and when it comes to actually going on strike, then bring your submissive and frightened case up again!!!!!
No company has gone under because a strike took it down - not one! If however this one does, then it was meant to happen, as the business was not viable to continue in any case!
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Originally Posted by mccdatabase
....if it is the latter even if action did suceed in raising the rise by maybe a per cent or so the disruption and inconvenience to our customers would cause even more of them to turn to other carriers in which case the tiny profits already made would be wiped out and we would all be back in the same situation next year ! this is not management spin as you call it, IT IS COMMON SENSE, there is a right time to play hardball and there is also a right time to be realistic, too many companies have gone down the pan because a few militants thought they knew better, I do not want to see bmi be another....
Of course, its always hard to be the sacrificial lamb.
The sooner we all realize that we're all effectively subsidising the general public by affording them the opportunity to travel to ALC for the price of a Chinese take-away, the better off we'll all be.
Over-capacity, lack of pricing power, extreme revenue sensitivity....
Maybe its time for some rationalisation?
Nevertheless, some airlines are making boat-loads of cash - RYR, BA, EZY, EK.....
Which suggests perhaps that the economic climate in the industry isn't as hard as the bmi management would have you believe.
Aren't we somewhere close to the peak of the business cycle? 10 years isn't it? Which means we're five years from the 2001 trough....
You can't whinge about fuel prices, if you're charging a fuel surcharge....
How to resolve the apparent contradiction?
IMHO, you have to question the credentials of the bmi management.
High oil prices are no surprise.
They've known about the end of the ECA subsidy for years.
Why is the CEO claiming the business transformation is only 25% complete? Why did he leave three quarters of the job to be done in 2006/7 - the last year of the subsidy? What has he been doing the last x number of years? Has the evidence that the agreement with LH was not delivering the expected benefits for BD only surfaced this year?
Sure he's got a number of headaches. Most airline management's do.
But whilst he's investing in an infrastructure to support operations out of LHR to RYD, JED, BOM & DME, he's failing to realise that grandiose management aspirations need to be shared by the workforce to come to fruition.
The best asset bmi have is their workforce.
I contend that they are quite right to demand that hand in hand with
the operational investment going on in the business as of now, a little more investment is made on their account.
As I understand, the bench-marking undertaken by the bmi CC demonstrates the inequalities.
I hazard a guess, the performance of the business would improve as a result.
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It's D-day tomorrow for mainline, and I hope for everyone's sake that we get a massive YES vote.
As my dearly departed granny used to say, 'you can poke the most placid dog with a stick, but eventually it will turn around and bite you'
I think we've all been aggravated for long enough and tomorrow will tell.
For those of you unfamiliar with the exact mainline pay dispute, it's not all about money. In fact my vote was mostly swayed by the refusal by management to honour the agreement signed in good faith in 2004. If we let them railroad us this time then we can kiss goodbye to any, an I mean ANY ability to negotiate in the future!
Today’s corporate memo from NT states:
".... I wanted to update you on the BALPA situation. I have written to Jim McAuslan of BALPA, offering a meeting to discuss the issues raised by BALPA, in relation to its members in all airlines across the group.
It is important that we both address issues constructively, especially in light of the recent difficulties facing the UK aviation industry, and that is what we will aim to do. ..."
Do I detect a change in tone? At least we seem to have got them back to the table. It's a start anyway, and beats being ignored.
As my dearly departed granny used to say, 'you can poke the most placid dog with a stick, but eventually it will turn around and bite you'
I think we've all been aggravated for long enough and tomorrow will tell.
For those of you unfamiliar with the exact mainline pay dispute, it's not all about money. In fact my vote was mostly swayed by the refusal by management to honour the agreement signed in good faith in 2004. If we let them railroad us this time then we can kiss goodbye to any, an I mean ANY ability to negotiate in the future!
Today’s corporate memo from NT states:
".... I wanted to update you on the BALPA situation. I have written to Jim McAuslan of BALPA, offering a meeting to discuss the issues raised by BALPA, in relation to its members in all airlines across the group.
It is important that we both address issues constructively, especially in light of the recent difficulties facing the UK aviation industry, and that is what we will aim to do. ..."
Do I detect a change in tone? At least we seem to have got them back to the table. It's a start anyway, and beats being ignored.
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Dr. Spin,
Where is this memo?
I haven't received it, when and how did you get it??
I'd be extremely cautious at this stage branding these words as perhaps signs of optimism, but perhaps the world is really spinning around it's axis?
1 4 sick
Where is this memo?
I haven't received it, when and how did you get it??
I'd be extremely cautious at this stage branding these words as perhaps signs of optimism, but perhaps the world is really spinning around it's axis?
1 4 sick
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Originally Posted by one four sick
Dr. Spin,
Where is this memo?
I haven't received it, when and how did you get it??
I'd be extremely cautious at this stage branding these words as perhaps signs of optimism, but perhaps the world is really spinning around it's axis?
1 4 sick
Where is this memo?
I haven't received it, when and how did you get it??
I'd be extremely cautious at this stage branding these words as perhaps signs of optimism, but perhaps the world is really spinning around it's axis?
1 4 sick
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bmi to meet with British Airline Pilots’ Association (BALPA)
release date: 23/08/2006
The bmi group has written to the pilots’ union BALPA, offering talks to cover issues raised by the union in regard to its members across the airlines within the group.
Nigel Turner, bmi group’s chief executive, said: “The aviation industry faces challenging issues, especially highlighted by the events of the last two weeks. It is important that we work together to take the business forward.
“We will approach the concerns raised by BALPA constructively and I look forward to meeting with the union’s representatives.”
ends
release date: 23/08/2006
The bmi group has written to the pilots’ union BALPA, offering talks to cover issues raised by the union in regard to its members across the airlines within the group.
Nigel Turner, bmi group’s chief executive, said: “The aviation industry faces challenging issues, especially highlighted by the events of the last two weeks. It is important that we work together to take the business forward.
“We will approach the concerns raised by BALPA constructively and I look forward to meeting with the union’s representatives.”
ends
Firstly, let it be known that I am not taking sides in this issue. However, I think there are a few points which need to be made.
Notwithstanding the threat of flight crew legal action, the bmi trading position does not look particularly strong. It is a sad reflection on the level of mis-trust which has built up between the management and front-line teams that efforts cannot be channeled into sorting out these issues. There is a very real risk that people think the worst fate that can befall bmi is that it doesn't make a profit this year. It isn't - and that's pretty much the syndrome which did for Pan Am and numerous other long-established airlines. The worst thing which can happen is that the airline goes bust and everyone is out of a job - and no-one (both flight crew and management) can afford to forget that.
The latest set of July passenger stats for bmi's routes look pretty awful. Domestic traffic on routes like LBA, MAN, MME is well down (20% drop) versus last year despite little capacity change (these routes were A319 last year already). On the long-haul routes, Mumbai had an average of 145 pax per flight. Given the fares war on UK-India routes, this is not a strong position. It is probable that the company's underlying profit & loss performance is poor and this has been an ongoing trend for some time. You can't afford to do this for very long before your cash reserves run low.
The employee groups do, however, have reasonable cause to level issues against the management. It is apparent that the management's strategy is not working and unless the employee groups have some involvement in that strategy, they have every right to claim that management's incompetence is costing them their pay rise. It's not for me to judge whether that pay claim is justified or not.
The business ought to have intrinsic value, with Heathrow slots and a good brand name (before the re-brand!). At the risk of throwing a hand grenade into the discussions, could I make a suggestion? Agree to accept the pay-rise this year in exchange for an equity stake in the respective parts of the business and the appointment an agreeable pilot employee representative to the boards of bmi and bmibaby.
That's certainly the way that things worked in the US market with United etc in the early 1990s. This would be divided by multiplying your salary by length of service, so a senior Captain on 20 years' service at £75k would get a far greater share than an F/O on £40k with 5 years' service. Everyone then has some clear incentive to make the business work and avoid strike action. The employee groups gain some say in how the business should be run, and you can start to move forward again.
In bmi, this could be particularly valuable - SMB owns 50% plus one share and the combined LH + SAS shares are 50% minus one share. If the employee groups had a small holding (5%) then they would effectively become the arbiters between SMB and Lufthansa / SAS in the event of any dispute, and could act in the best interests of the airline and its employee groups.
Just a thought. It might be completely untenable to SMB - but then again, such a proposal might be the lesser of two evils for him when weighing up a proposal like this versus a debilitating period of strike action which the company can ill afford on the basis of its current performance. At present, the airline is probably damned if it agrees to the pay rise - and escalates its costbase way beyond its income levels - and damned if it doesn't, in that strike action will inevitably follow. This might just be a way out for all.
Notwithstanding the threat of flight crew legal action, the bmi trading position does not look particularly strong. It is a sad reflection on the level of mis-trust which has built up between the management and front-line teams that efforts cannot be channeled into sorting out these issues. There is a very real risk that people think the worst fate that can befall bmi is that it doesn't make a profit this year. It isn't - and that's pretty much the syndrome which did for Pan Am and numerous other long-established airlines. The worst thing which can happen is that the airline goes bust and everyone is out of a job - and no-one (both flight crew and management) can afford to forget that.
The latest set of July passenger stats for bmi's routes look pretty awful. Domestic traffic on routes like LBA, MAN, MME is well down (20% drop) versus last year despite little capacity change (these routes were A319 last year already). On the long-haul routes, Mumbai had an average of 145 pax per flight. Given the fares war on UK-India routes, this is not a strong position. It is probable that the company's underlying profit & loss performance is poor and this has been an ongoing trend for some time. You can't afford to do this for very long before your cash reserves run low.
The employee groups do, however, have reasonable cause to level issues against the management. It is apparent that the management's strategy is not working and unless the employee groups have some involvement in that strategy, they have every right to claim that management's incompetence is costing them their pay rise. It's not for me to judge whether that pay claim is justified or not.
The business ought to have intrinsic value, with Heathrow slots and a good brand name (before the re-brand!). At the risk of throwing a hand grenade into the discussions, could I make a suggestion? Agree to accept the pay-rise this year in exchange for an equity stake in the respective parts of the business and the appointment an agreeable pilot employee representative to the boards of bmi and bmibaby.
That's certainly the way that things worked in the US market with United etc in the early 1990s. This would be divided by multiplying your salary by length of service, so a senior Captain on 20 years' service at £75k would get a far greater share than an F/O on £40k with 5 years' service. Everyone then has some clear incentive to make the business work and avoid strike action. The employee groups gain some say in how the business should be run, and you can start to move forward again.
In bmi, this could be particularly valuable - SMB owns 50% plus one share and the combined LH + SAS shares are 50% minus one share. If the employee groups had a small holding (5%) then they would effectively become the arbiters between SMB and Lufthansa / SAS in the event of any dispute, and could act in the best interests of the airline and its employee groups.
Just a thought. It might be completely untenable to SMB - but then again, such a proposal might be the lesser of two evils for him when weighing up a proposal like this versus a debilitating period of strike action which the company can ill afford on the basis of its current performance. At present, the airline is probably damned if it agrees to the pay rise - and escalates its costbase way beyond its income levels - and damned if it doesn't, in that strike action will inevitably follow. This might just be a way out for all.
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Indeed wacpack, hopefully a strong message to the board that we're not prepared to put up with their arrogance any more. I see the flood of industrial unhappiness is increasing at bmi with the groundstaff balloting. Poor Mr Turner & Co. just doesn't have a clue!
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If only the poor cabin crew had a union that wasn't run by "the man" then they could put up a fight too.
The majority of bmi's work force have had enough, it's time we get heard!!
The majority of bmi's work force have had enough, it's time we get heard!!
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Excellent news! Mainline pilots vote 89% in favour of industrial action, Regional vote 86% in favour of industrial action. Finally we have a mandate to take on this draconian dictatorship that is bmi management! Sit-up and take notice bmi, planes don't fly very well without pilots! Well done guys, I'm proud of you!
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bmi pilots vote 89% in favour of industrial action, strike to follow
The result is out at last! bmi mainline pilots have voted 89% in favour of industrial action with bmi regional pilots voting 86% in favour! A strong mandate from both groups, well done people!