EASYJET FO TAKE HOME PAY(AFTER PAYRISE)
Mach 3
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NSS
I don't think the problem is peculiar to Easy.
They all haemorrhage pilots to BA & co. ultimately because that is perceived as a better employer.
Recently a whole host of my colleagues have made the aforementioned jump: LOCO to BA. Most were in their early 30's with ~2500hrs.
If you do the cost:benefit analysis over a 25yr career (retiring at 60) using the widely available short-haul pay-scales for BA and compare with your own LOCO pay-scales (assuming a 15 year wait until command at BA versus a command for the rest of your career at your LOCO), no indexing for inflation or anything else, you will find that at BA you'd only have to work ~23.5yrs to make the same amount of cash.
That is probably pessimistic because I believe the gap between BA salary-scales and LOCO salary scales will reduce in the future and I have used a conservative estimate of the variable element of LOCO pay.
This means it is not until your final year at BA that you are quids in for someone of this age and experience (although of course at BA, on a year 24 pay-point you're making money at a hell of a rate).
Now factor in the difference in payments on your mortgage if you live in the London area.
Lets say you have a £300K mortgage for 25 years at your regional base, versus a 20% higher mortgage for the same term in the home counties. At 4.7%, the difference in payments on the two types of mortgage is ~£105K. Any increase in rate only serves to reduce the gap (between the two employment prospects) even further.
So you've just narrowed down the difference between the two prospects to approximately 3/4 of a year.
On this basis, my contention is that LOCO's ought to be working harder to ensure that these type of people stay because the cost:benefit analysis of moving is marginal!
For someone in these circumstances, is BA a better employment prospect?
Answer: Based on the simple economic equation above, only marginally!
Small increases in LOCO pay relative to the legacy carriers would even out this calculation even more although, I have of course, not included any pension benefits or fringe benefits in the calculation.
I would say Easyjet is just as likely to be around in 25 years as BA.
We're all working 900hrs/year.
Who has time for staff travel?
How much is the additional hassle of not working out of LGW or LHR worth?
How frustrated are you going to be sitting in the RHS for 15 more years?
The one potential swinger for me is pension provision. And as I understand, Easy's scheme is as good as the new BA scheme?
You makes your bed and you lie in it.
I don't think the problem is peculiar to Easy.
They all haemorrhage pilots to BA & co. ultimately because that is perceived as a better employer.
Recently a whole host of my colleagues have made the aforementioned jump: LOCO to BA. Most were in their early 30's with ~2500hrs.
If you do the cost:benefit analysis over a 25yr career (retiring at 60) using the widely available short-haul pay-scales for BA and compare with your own LOCO pay-scales (assuming a 15 year wait until command at BA versus a command for the rest of your career at your LOCO), no indexing for inflation or anything else, you will find that at BA you'd only have to work ~23.5yrs to make the same amount of cash.
That is probably pessimistic because I believe the gap between BA salary-scales and LOCO salary scales will reduce in the future and I have used a conservative estimate of the variable element of LOCO pay.
This means it is not until your final year at BA that you are quids in for someone of this age and experience (although of course at BA, on a year 24 pay-point you're making money at a hell of a rate).
Now factor in the difference in payments on your mortgage if you live in the London area.
Lets say you have a £300K mortgage for 25 years at your regional base, versus a 20% higher mortgage for the same term in the home counties. At 4.7%, the difference in payments on the two types of mortgage is ~£105K. Any increase in rate only serves to reduce the gap (between the two employment prospects) even further.
So you've just narrowed down the difference between the two prospects to approximately 3/4 of a year.
On this basis, my contention is that LOCO's ought to be working harder to ensure that these type of people stay because the cost:benefit analysis of moving is marginal!
For someone in these circumstances, is BA a better employment prospect?
Answer: Based on the simple economic equation above, only marginally!
Small increases in LOCO pay relative to the legacy carriers would even out this calculation even more although, I have of course, not included any pension benefits or fringe benefits in the calculation.
I would say Easyjet is just as likely to be around in 25 years as BA.
We're all working 900hrs/year.
Who has time for staff travel?
How much is the additional hassle of not working out of LGW or LHR worth?
How frustrated are you going to be sitting in the RHS for 15 more years?
The one potential swinger for me is pension provision. And as I understand, Easy's scheme is as good as the new BA scheme?
You makes your bed and you lie in it.
Last edited by SR71; 7th Jun 2006 at 22:54.
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NSF,
You are describing the majority of the CTC ATP candidates who had to beg, borrow and steal to get their licences. After issue and other experience (most commonly air taxi or instructors) they then apply to CTC. If successful over the 4 stage application and selection process (that I spoke of a few post earlier,) they then train with easyJet and if successful, are offered a full time contract.
Surely this scheme provides a central recruitment process which ensures a level playing field for candidates who already have licenses?
Besides, since the 60's, many, many BA pilots were sponsored from zero hours and went straight form a light multi-engine piston aircraft to Vanguards, VC10's, Tridents and 737's with 200 hours?
have had no guarantees whatsover. They have had to beg, borrow and steal to get their licences and are then faced with prejudice against them because they are not 'sponsored' by CTC.
Surely this scheme provides a central recruitment process which ensures a level playing field for candidates who already have licenses?
Besides, since the 60's, many, many BA pilots were sponsored from zero hours and went straight form a light multi-engine piston aircraft to Vanguards, VC10's, Tridents and 737's with 200 hours?
Surely this scheme provides a central recruitment process which ensures a level playing field for candidates who already have licenses?
I know when I had 1000hrsTT with 500 of that being multiturbine single crew (and an MCC), Easy would have excluded me from the process because I wasnt a CTC cadet or had the magic 500hrs multi-crew.
Would you seriously suggest that a person with similar experience to what I had at that stage was a poorer candidate and higher training risk than a cadet with 400hrs and an MCC certificate?
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MM,
Ok...
There are two CTC routes. One for ab-initio cadets and one for existing licence holders. There was a successful chap on my CTC ATP course who had in excess of 1000TT, although not multi turbine. No exclusion there. 
Not at all.
I think NSF was pointing more at the inequities of candidates that DONT go through the CTC scheme
I know when I had 1000hrsTT with 500 of that being multiturbine single crew (and an MCC), Easy would have excluded me from the process because I wasnt a CTC cadet or had the magic 500hrs multi-crew.
Would you seriously suggest that a person with similar experience to what I had at that stage was a poorer candidate and higher training risk than a cadet with 400hrs and an MCC certificate?
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SR71 - we are really both agreed. I have no doubt that over a lifetime BA is a better place to work than easyJet. Therefore if you are 25-30 you will inevitably go there. A lo-co will never be as 'good' an employer as a national carrier and we would be foolish to try and pretend we are. EasyJet should be recognising that and therefore ensure we take people who are likely to stay longer than a year. The totally understandable pressure of getting on a seniority list at BA means that there are virtually no financial penalties we could impose for early departures to prevent people leaving. We will therefore always face the problem of taking on bright young gals/girls from CTC as they will never stay - my argument is that we should act accordingly and look elsewhere among the vast range of employable pilots who will stay longer with us and make their employment cost effective. The bottom line is that if my son were a young 23 year old pilot with easyJet I would be badgering him to get his BA application in the post - and so would every other pilot at easyJet be doing with their son. Therefore we should not be surprised at them leaving and we should recruit accordingly.
Craggenmore - I hope I have not given the impression that I am insulting the cadets. Far from it, I am recognising that they are good quality people who lack experience. In the past BA took such people and accepted the limitations they brought in their first year or so because that would be offset by many years' valuable service to BA later on. We, alas, only get the year of learning the job before they leave which, I am sure you would agree, is somewhat less attractive to their current employer!
Regarding risk, most of the cadets have taken the minimum risk that any pilots (apart from ex-military) have taken in terms of financial security. As you have pointed out there are some who pass through the doors of CTC with 1000+ hours but that is a tiny percentage. I can only go on who I meet day to day and they are universally the guys/gals who accepted a £60k loan with a virtually guaranteed job at the end. As anyone who has every learnt to fly will know the flying is the easy bit - getting that first job is where the trouble starts. If you can mitigate that risk then you are truly blessed.
My point is that CTC cadets have enormous protections (ie 60 line training sectors when everyone else gets 20) and an implicit understanding that they are 'just learning'. I have no problem with that but feel a sense of the injustice of the situation for the countless magnificent candidates who easyJet will not look at because they take so many cadets. These people also have low hours and would do really well for us. The cadet scheme grants favours to a tiny group of unproven pilots whilst actively disadvantaging some great people. To add insult to injury, the cadets are merely using easyJet as a stepping stone to better things and from the very first day they arrive have, for the reasons given above and elsewhere, their eyes set on the promised land beyond.
My contention is that we should be looking to drastically reduce our reliance on pilots from this scheme and give opportunities to what once would have been called 'self-improvers'. They have taken all the risks and at the moment make none of the gains.
Craggenmore - I hope I have not given the impression that I am insulting the cadets. Far from it, I am recognising that they are good quality people who lack experience. In the past BA took such people and accepted the limitations they brought in their first year or so because that would be offset by many years' valuable service to BA later on. We, alas, only get the year of learning the job before they leave which, I am sure you would agree, is somewhat less attractive to their current employer!
Regarding risk, most of the cadets have taken the minimum risk that any pilots (apart from ex-military) have taken in terms of financial security. As you have pointed out there are some who pass through the doors of CTC with 1000+ hours but that is a tiny percentage. I can only go on who I meet day to day and they are universally the guys/gals who accepted a £60k loan with a virtually guaranteed job at the end. As anyone who has every learnt to fly will know the flying is the easy bit - getting that first job is where the trouble starts. If you can mitigate that risk then you are truly blessed.
My point is that CTC cadets have enormous protections (ie 60 line training sectors when everyone else gets 20) and an implicit understanding that they are 'just learning'. I have no problem with that but feel a sense of the injustice of the situation for the countless magnificent candidates who easyJet will not look at because they take so many cadets. These people also have low hours and would do really well for us. The cadet scheme grants favours to a tiny group of unproven pilots whilst actively disadvantaging some great people. To add insult to injury, the cadets are merely using easyJet as a stepping stone to better things and from the very first day they arrive have, for the reasons given above and elsewhere, their eyes set on the promised land beyond.
My contention is that we should be looking to drastically reduce our reliance on pilots from this scheme and give opportunities to what once would have been called 'self-improvers'. They have taken all the risks and at the moment make none of the gains.
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Norman Stanley Fletcher: Bravo Sir, well said. Maybe you need to get yourself onto the board of EasyJet or involved with HR in order to induce some degree of practicality 
Anyway good point (as always).
Anyway good point (as always).
There are two CTC routes. One for ab-initio cadets and one for existing licence holders. There was a successful chap on my CTC ATP course who had in excess of 1000TT, although not multi turbine. No exclusion there.
I would have been rejected on the basis of not having 500 multi-crew hours, and CTC would not have been an option for me...hence exclusion
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SR71 : The money thing is one way of looking at it, the other is lifestyle. How much would you pay to live for another 10 years? A lot of people leave because being rostered like this will eventually take years off your life, regardless of what is printed in Flight. Its not just the cadets, how many new Captains (the most likely candidates to be pro company) have left in the first year or so of being a Captain with EJ?
If you do the cost:benefit analysis
Sure you weren't an accountant in a past life
If you do the cost:benefit analysis
Sure you weren't an accountant in a past life
Monarch Man
The only reason that you would be excluded from CTC's scheme is if you are over 34 years old or don't hold a fATPL. Any self improver under the age of 34 can apply for CTC's ATP scheme and if they get through the 4 stage selection process they will be offered a type rating and line training with a partner company (often Easyjet).
NSF
There are many of us who have had to work extremely hard to keep day jobs, keep mortgages, hold down relationships and pay huge sums of money in training to gain our frozen ATPL's with no guarantee of a job at the end. It may be that the majority of CTC cadets you have met are straight out of university but I for one have been working since the age of 16 and many other CTC cadets are in the same boat. I'm not yet through the final hurdle of the selection process, however if I do make it there are still no guarantees as I could still get kicked out during type rating or during line training. That's a lot of pressure when you have a large mortgage to service.
SW
Your missing the point again, as per NSF's comments........
I would have been rejected on the basis of not having 500 multi-crew hours, and CTC would not have been an option for me...hence exclusion
I would have been rejected on the basis of not having 500 multi-crew hours, and CTC would not have been an option for me...hence exclusion
NSF
There are many of us who have had to work extremely hard to keep day jobs, keep mortgages, hold down relationships and pay huge sums of money in training to gain our frozen ATPL's with no guarantee of a job at the end. It may be that the majority of CTC cadets you have met are straight out of university but I for one have been working since the age of 16 and many other CTC cadets are in the same boat. I'm not yet through the final hurdle of the selection process, however if I do make it there are still no guarantees as I could still get kicked out during type rating or during line training. That's a lot of pressure when you have a large mortgage to service.
SW
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Originally Posted by Norman Stanley Fletcher
My contention is that we should be looking to drastically reduce our reliance on pilots from this scheme and give opportunities to what once would have been called 'self-improvers'. They have taken all the risks and at the moment make none of the gains.
The other scheme is the old 'ATP' scheme, not sure what it is called now. Anyone who goes on this scheme has the frozen ATPL in their hand already and then they apply to CTC. If they get through the various stages of the CTC selection they are then placed in a hold pool (or as is currently happening), offered straight to a partner airline. Many, many of these pilots ARE self improvers, who have trained here, there and everywhere, a few having already flown as flying instructors and the like. EasyJet take the vast majority of these pilots and others take them too, including my airline Thomsonfly. They are NOT cadets, they are (the vast majority) just low houred pilots who have completed the CTC selection successfully. Yes the various employers see an opportunity to put them on reduced wage etc, but they are NOT cadets.
I think I get the gist of what you mean though; that direct applicants with low hours should be considered alongside the CTC 'provided' pilots. I think market forces will mean this happens soon as everyone seems to be recruiting and not getting the right numbers who meet their 'wishlist' requirements. Also, CTC are not keeping pace with the demand as they can't get the numbers either!
Interestingly, Tfly took several CTC pilots on last year, type rated by CTC, line trained either by Tfly or Hapag and then the union complained that they hadn't had to go through the same selection process as all the other pilots (true), so these poor guys had to then do the Tfly selection having been flying the line for a month or two! Unfortunately quite a few of them failed it and were not offered contracts. I know of at least a couple whom CTC then placed at Easy. I am not having a go, I think it was our loss actually, and easyJet's gain.... I flew with a few of them and they were ok operators.
PP
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You can do all the sums in the world regarding pay, living expenses etc.
As a ex ATP scheme cadet I could be looking at command within 2 years. Instead I look at my current roster and lifestyle and think there is no way I'm willing to do this for 30 years - LHS or not.
If they sorted things out I would have to think much harder about giving up that command and a regional base.
As a ex ATP scheme cadet I could be looking at command within 2 years. Instead I look at my current roster and lifestyle and think there is no way I'm willing to do this for 30 years - LHS or not.
If they sorted things out I would have to think much harder about giving up that command and a regional base.
The only reason that you would be excluded from CTC's scheme is if you are over 34 years old or don't hold a fATPL. Any self improver under the age of 34 can apply for CTC's ATP scheme and if they get through the 4 stage selection process they will be offered a type rating and line training with a partner company (often Easyjet).
I WOULD HAVE BEEN EXCLUDED, do I have to spell it out? i.e. being older than 34Sky..this is not a pop at CTC, merely a reflection of what would have happened had I been in that situation at that time, nothing more.
I get frustrated for the pool of VERY VERY worthwhile candidates (self-improvers) with experience levels and competency that far exceed your average CTC cadet.
As NSF correctly states, the vast majority have little more than 250hrs total flying experience, when they join Easy.
Easyjet must surely be aware that the system that is in place is flawed...but ultimately the candiates are taking all the financial risk..so its win win for them
Originally Posted by Pilot Pete
I think I get the gist of what you mean though; that direct applicants with low hours should be considered alongside the CTC 'provided' pilots. I think market forces will mean this happens soon as everyone seems to be recruiting and not getting the right numbers who meet their 'wishlist' requirements. Also, CTC are not keeping pace with the demand as they can't get the numbers either!
PP
PP
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Pilot Pete - thank you for your thoughts. I believe I do understand fully the CTC schemes in their various guises. My point is that, as Monarch Man correctly states, many people are discluded for all sorts of reasons. Having completed the command course through CTC, I was less than impressed but that is another story. CTC have a monopoly position of provding pilots to easyJet and they are all leaving in less than a year! It is totally unacceptable and needs to be reviewed.
In your post you said, 'Many, many of these pilots ARE self improvers, who have trained here, there and everywhere, a few having already flown as flying instructors and the like.' All I can tell you is that I have not met a single pilot from CTC in that category - every single one I have met is a young lad with about 200 - 300 hours experience when they start. There will not doubt be exceptions to my experience, but there is no doubt that CTC is primarily providing low-houred inexperienced pilots who almost exactly fit the BA recruitment profile. It should therefore come as no surprise they all end up working for BA!
My point is that we are being fleeced - we simply do not get value for money. It is an absolute nonsense to say that if easyJet changed some part of the way they work then all these guys would stay. As OPEN DES has so ably demonstrated, young pilots will never stay here and we should not kid ourselves. The ludicrous situation we have at the moment whereby pilots can rush to GECAT, do an A320 rating and become easyJet pilots a few weeks later without ever having had an interview must be seen as totally unacceptable. The reason we are in this mess is that all our CTC-provided pilots have shoved off en-masse! CTC, are providing us with the very people who will not stay - we simply cannot accept that in the long term. I am not a manager, but if I were my first move would be to cancel our arrangements with CTC as we have been sold a pup!
In your post you said, 'Many, many of these pilots ARE self improvers, who have trained here, there and everywhere, a few having already flown as flying instructors and the like.' All I can tell you is that I have not met a single pilot from CTC in that category - every single one I have met is a young lad with about 200 - 300 hours experience when they start. There will not doubt be exceptions to my experience, but there is no doubt that CTC is primarily providing low-houred inexperienced pilots who almost exactly fit the BA recruitment profile. It should therefore come as no surprise they all end up working for BA!
My point is that we are being fleeced - we simply do not get value for money. It is an absolute nonsense to say that if easyJet changed some part of the way they work then all these guys would stay. As OPEN DES has so ably demonstrated, young pilots will never stay here and we should not kid ourselves. The ludicrous situation we have at the moment whereby pilots can rush to GECAT, do an A320 rating and become easyJet pilots a few weeks later without ever having had an interview must be seen as totally unacceptable. The reason we are in this mess is that all our CTC-provided pilots have shoved off en-masse! CTC, are providing us with the very people who will not stay - we simply cannot accept that in the long term. I am not a manager, but if I were my first move would be to cancel our arrangements with CTC as we have been sold a pup!
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PP,
This surprises me. The CTC ATP selection surely has to be one of the toughest and most thorough process' in the world. Do TFly use the format below? No airline puts candidates through 36 hours of sim assesments, so perhaps TFly pilots should undergo the CTC screening!
Stage 1: 6 page on-line application from followed by 5 page hand written application form.
Stage 2: PILAPT and numerical reasoning tests.
Stage 3: Group introduction followed by 2 group exercises followed by a 2 on 1, one hour interview.
Stage 4: The AQC course. One week of MCC/CRM followed by 36 hours of Airbus/Boeing simulator assessments.
If you successfully pass those stages you are placed on hold to await a 'sponsor airline'. EasyJet will be my airline.
NSF, am I to experience any prejudice due to this training route into easyJet?
Interestingly, Tfly took several CTC pilots on last year, type rated by CTC, line trained either by Tfly or Hapag and then the union complained that they hadn't had to go through the same selection process as all the other pilots (true), so these poor guys had to then do the Tfly selection
Stage 1: 6 page on-line application from followed by 5 page hand written application form.
Stage 2: PILAPT and numerical reasoning tests.
Stage 3: Group introduction followed by 2 group exercises followed by a 2 on 1, one hour interview.
Stage 4: The AQC course. One week of MCC/CRM followed by 36 hours of Airbus/Boeing simulator assessments.
If you successfully pass those stages you are placed on hold to await a 'sponsor airline'. EasyJet will be my airline.
NSF, am I to experience any prejudice due to this training route into easyJet?
Last edited by Craggenmore; 9th Jun 2006 at 07:10.
NSF,
I have a suspicion that most people want to leave, but since the cadets are the most employable group, then that's why we are seeing an exodus from them. Cancelling the cadet scheme will just see a shift in the type of person leaving, not the quantity.
In the market now, there needs to be a big adjustment. The cushy job pays well (BA, Virgin etc) and the chain-gang job pays poorly. Totally the wrong way round.
Once this is reversed, there will always be those who want to work harder for more £ and it is they that will stay LOCO, while those after the relatively relaxing lifestlye of long haul will opt for this in exchange for less cash.
Until then, we will grab our hours at eJ, and do a runner before exhaustion gets the better of us. After 9 consecutive earlies (2 off in the middle, no CAP371 style max hours on multiple earlies protection) with a take home pay of £2300 (3 year SFO, TRSS) my efforts, like so many others, are focused on 777/340.
I have a suspicion that most people want to leave, but since the cadets are the most employable group, then that's why we are seeing an exodus from them. Cancelling the cadet scheme will just see a shift in the type of person leaving, not the quantity.
In the market now, there needs to be a big adjustment. The cushy job pays well (BA, Virgin etc) and the chain-gang job pays poorly. Totally the wrong way round.
Once this is reversed, there will always be those who want to work harder for more £ and it is they that will stay LOCO, while those after the relatively relaxing lifestlye of long haul will opt for this in exchange for less cash.
Until then, we will grab our hours at eJ, and do a runner before exhaustion gets the better of us. After 9 consecutive earlies (2 off in the middle, no CAP371 style max hours on multiple earlies protection) with a take home pay of £2300 (3 year SFO, TRSS) my efforts, like so many others, are focused on 777/340.
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NSF
You make good points as always. I understand you are based at a certain southern easy base where most if not all the cadets have fled to fly the flag. The situation at our regional bases is a little different. At my base there is yet to be a cadet to up and leave and I don't know of any who have left the other regional bases, certainly none that I still hear of/from. Most of us have passed the 500hr barrier that BA requires. For the cadets based at LGW, STN and LTN a move to BA makes sense but those of us up in the northern hills are here because personal circumstances dictate we want a regional base, and that is where BA falls down.
Personally I have no real wish to join BA. I don't want to live near London. I like the people I fly with and I find my base good fun and fairly stress free to operate in and out of - on the whole. I know people who operate out of LHR shorthaul and really don't like it. I would also like a command sooner rather than later. I will have an Airbus rating by the years end. So I will be staying for now, and I'm not the only one. My issue is, suprise-suprise, the roster.
When you say;
"It is an absolute nonsense to say that if easyJet changed some part of the way they work then all these guys would stay."
I understand your point but I actually feel if easy changed a few things then more cadets would stay. The first six months with no pay/contract/leave/pension is utter bull*hit for a start, and is a short term costcutting measure to fit in with managements' short term vision of their personal financial gain. I cannot see myself staying here another 40 years (lets face it by the time I get to retirement it will be 65!) purely because 40 900hr years aren't going to be humanly possible - certainly not from what colleagues have told me of their problems with fatigue after a much shorter space of time with easy.
So in summary I am happy enough at easy, there need to be changes made but I'm not going anywhere soon, and I'm not alone. However I couldn't agree more with your thoughts on the guys who are overlooked by easy to sustain the love-in with CTC.
You make good points as always. I understand you are based at a certain southern easy base where most if not all the cadets have fled to fly the flag. The situation at our regional bases is a little different. At my base there is yet to be a cadet to up and leave and I don't know of any who have left the other regional bases, certainly none that I still hear of/from. Most of us have passed the 500hr barrier that BA requires. For the cadets based at LGW, STN and LTN a move to BA makes sense but those of us up in the northern hills are here because personal circumstances dictate we want a regional base, and that is where BA falls down.
Personally I have no real wish to join BA. I don't want to live near London. I like the people I fly with and I find my base good fun and fairly stress free to operate in and out of - on the whole. I know people who operate out of LHR shorthaul and really don't like it. I would also like a command sooner rather than later. I will have an Airbus rating by the years end. So I will be staying for now, and I'm not the only one. My issue is, suprise-suprise, the roster.
When you say;
"It is an absolute nonsense to say that if easyJet changed some part of the way they work then all these guys would stay."
I understand your point but I actually feel if easy changed a few things then more cadets would stay. The first six months with no pay/contract/leave/pension is utter bull*hit for a start, and is a short term costcutting measure to fit in with managements' short term vision of their personal financial gain. I cannot see myself staying here another 40 years (lets face it by the time I get to retirement it will be 65!) purely because 40 900hr years aren't going to be humanly possible - certainly not from what colleagues have told me of their problems with fatigue after a much shorter space of time with easy.
So in summary I am happy enough at easy, there need to be changes made but I'm not going anywhere soon, and I'm not alone. However I couldn't agree more with your thoughts on the guys who are overlooked by easy to sustain the love-in with CTC.