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Moaning Pilots !

Old 3rd May 2006, 11:21
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Moaning Pilots !

I have been exploring the options available to me of becoming an airline pilot for some months now ! PPRuNe has given me a great insight into my prospective career ! What I have discovered in my days of research on this website is shocking. For a young wannabe these days its extremely difficult to become an airliine pilot and fulfil his or her dream. What shocked me is to read about all those airline pilots who do nothing but complain and moan about their jobs ! These guys really dont know how lucky they are and they dont seem to appreciate their jobs one bit ! If its not there T&C 's its there irregular job ! There are people out there who have spent thousands on training themselves and they cannot get a job ! I feel for these people very much and I would like to know what there thoughts are like on the lucky guys who are the real thing and all they do is give off ! I know life is not fair but the airlines pilots who complain the most must have gotten their jobs really handy and probably had rich dadies to support through Training ! I know pilots are being treated badly by some airliines but its there fault that they let themselves be treated this way because they were let be pushed around ! Its the likes of Micheal O' Leary who is having the last laugh these days ! The way I see it is you need 3 things to get a job as an airline pilot and they are MONEY, DETERMINATION & LUCK.

DISCUSS
cheekycapt is offline  
Old 3rd May 2006, 11:41
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We have to have something to do in the cruise and since the locked flight deck door came into effect inviting all the beautiful people to join us in the office is out of the window moaning and whinging is a popular alternative!

I agree we tend to moan a lot and sometimes sound like we don't appreciate the jobs we have, well I certainly do. But remember that in many cases we have no other form of employ and so when things start to get unpleasant we need somewhere to vent so we tend to use PPRuNe. We have no control over what management spring on us or the next P**s take to be imposed so the job we joined is not necessarily the job we have now. New pilots coming into the industry expect to pay for a type rating whereas 3 years ago this was an exception not the norm it is now. Now experienced pilots are being expected pay for type ratings or take draconian changes to their terms and conditions when they move on or in some cases if they want to stay.

I agree we moan a lot but show me an office that doesn't moan about the same things we do. Would an average officer worker moan if their company removed a free coffee machine and said bring your own... yes they would the difference here is we can't just pop out and get some. Does the average office worker have to be checked every six months, we do and in some cases have to pay for it ourselves. Our legal maximum working hours are often considered targets rather than limits so we often work 7 days in a row changing between earlies and lates etc etc etc. the list could go on. The point is that while the job is very nice it does have its bad points and those looking in be they the general public or wanabees don't necessarily have all the fact to be able to get past the 'well he / she's a pilot and gettin gpaid lots so why are they whining!' attitude.

Let the flaming commence

Box
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Old 3rd May 2006, 11:45
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Cheekycapt,

It's the guys & gals with rich daddies who are assisiting the airlines screw us and prevent Jo Bloggs, mortgage and 2.3 kids, from getting a job. Anyway, that was a good moan, keep it up.

Whinge over...
Blue Foot

Last edited by Blue-Footed Boobie; 3rd May 2006 at 11:57.
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Old 3rd May 2006, 11:53
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"most must have gotten their jobs really handy and probably had rich daddies to support through Training !"

is actually quite offensive, almost all of the people I work with have debts the size of mortgages.

The problem is that after spending such a large sum of money on training many people are happy to spend more getting a type rating and grab the first job they get offered whatever the terms and conditions. This has a detrimental effect on the rest of us because it drags down the base level T&C’s.

Only by venting can we get an idea of what things are like across the board. By working together and expressing our feeling we can let wannabe's know what life is really like before setting off down an expensive and frustrating progress.

Rant over.

By the way I am very happy in my job, fair T&C's for the amount I work and a great bunch of people to work with.

Rudolf
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Old 3rd May 2006, 12:05
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Cheekychapt - your analysis of 'rich daddies' is not really accurate. Sure, there are individuals who were fortunate enough to have parents to support their ambitions and some even luckier ones who managed to get the Queen to pay for it by flying in the armed forces. Arguably the luckiest of all are those that managed to persuade national carriers like BA to pay for their training, had a wonderful career, earnt enormous somes of money, before retiring at 55 with a pension larger than a low cost captain's salary! Frankly, I do not grudge them one penny of it, but they were nonetheless incredibly fortunate. Nowadays, there are genuine opportunities to control debt by going to companies like CTC who, after a rigorous selection procedure, will lend you money with a vitrual guarantee of an airline job at the end.

The vast majority are people in aviation, however, are people who took enormous financial risks such as leaving secure jobs, selling homes, taking huge loans etc and set out with no guarantees but pursuing their chidhood dream. The real tragedy is that not all of them made it. I have nothing but the greatest respect for such people and would always do anything to help them.

In terms of gratitude about flying, many people know how fortunate they are. Every day of my life I am profoundly grateful for the opportunities life has brought me and frankly dread the day when it all finishes. Nonetheless, I want to preserve the good job I have in terms of quality of life and future prospects. Therefore like many pilots, I choose to fight the attacks on our future lives that are ever more powerful. Also, when issues arise within our companies that are clearly unacceptable then we also choose to stand our ground and fight in addition to highlighting the issues within our own professional communities. That does not mean we are not grateful for the job - it just means we will not sit back and be taken advantage of by unscrupulous individuals who would rob us blind and leave us in the street with nothing.

Best of luck in the future. The battles you see being played out here are the ones that will guarantee people like yourself have a bright future as a pilot. Otherwise you may just become a slave to the seeping sores on the backside of aviation like Michael O'Leary.
Norman Stanley Fletcher is offline  
Old 3rd May 2006, 13:13
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Originally Posted by rudolf
"most must have gotten their jobs really handy and probably had rich daddies to support through Training !"

is actually quite offensive,
Rudolf
Correction: Is extremely offensive! A hole
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Old 3rd May 2006, 13:18
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Originally Posted by cheekycapt
I know life is not fair but the airlines pilots who complain the most must have gotten their jobs really handy and probably had rich dadies to support through Training !
I find that comment unjust, I dont think you have the right to assume this about every pilot.

I myself was raised by a poor family and from my teen years on just my mother. To me money has Nothing to do with it at all, just pure determination. It took me years to gain my ATPL through the self improver route but you know I got there through hard work and determination.

I would consider myself living proof of a serious flaw in your theory.

PS. You forgot to mention that as well as moaning most of us cant dance - Well thats what most cabin crew say
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Old 3rd May 2006, 13:28
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cheekycapt.

Congrats on getting your liscence and I wish you the best of luck.
You ridicule those 'moaners' who don't know how lucky they are to have a job.

Remember, those moaners you refer to have most probably been through the same system as you and in far worse times when no jobs were going at all.
Very few of us just landed in a job.

I am glad to have a job, but that doesn't mean I should sell myself short by accepting the continuous erosion of conditions spreading across the industry.

When you are young, free, single and keen you don't think of much but getting the break but I assure you, fast forward 2 yrs. into an airline job and you will cross over.

Sheer delight and gratitude in having a job doesn't pay the bills.

As for it being the fault of the pilots for letting MOL walk over them indicates to me how much you have to learn about the wrokings of the world.

I wish you the best of luck in your career.
worldwidewolly is offline  
Old 3rd May 2006, 14:20
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I say! What's a mortgage?

Damnit - just goes to show then - an airline pilot today is no longer the gentleman he once was. Deuced well having to work for it? That will lower standards all round, won't it now?
Never mind though. I expect that the boffins will come up with a compensatory device to fly the aeroplane. Should sort out some of the short comings of birth. Compensate the lower classes, you know - allow them to feel useful -sort of thing !
What!
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Old 3rd May 2006, 15:20
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cheekycapt
Don't become an airline pilot ! You obviously like to shoot from the hip without thinking. I don't think the airline HR people will go for people like you with that kind of thinking. Being an airline pilot has NEVER been easy, why should it be any easier for you. We all have had our hard luck stories in getting to the airlines, I'm sure you don't want to hear about mine. Do pilots bitch about their jobs ? You bet they do !! After 20 years at my airline, my pension all but gone, my pay has been cut by 30% the work rules have drastically been changed ... and you pass judgement on me and my colleagues ? If you ever become an airline pilot, remember your own words, they will bite you in your sanctimonius ass.
BTW I still enjoy and appreciate the job I have, but you have no experience in being in my shoes and knowing the reality of being an airline pilot.
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Old 3rd May 2006, 15:31
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cheekycapt,
Everybody thinks like you when they are a wannabe. I did too so I dont blame you, however I have to ask you why do you want to be a pilot? I wanted to be a pilot 1. because I love flying (still!) and 2. it's a decent career (barely). Not many who make it to heavy jets are on the breadline but the reality is that if we let our terms and conditions get eroded at the same rate as the last 10 yrs we will be paid less than bus drivers before I retire! Do you think that is fair for all the training and assessment pilots go through??? Would you still want to be a pilot... If you say yes then you probably dont have a car and jumbo mortgage like the rest of us
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Old 3rd May 2006, 17:57
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cheekycapt good moan welcome.
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Old 3rd May 2006, 18:20
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Cheekycapt you're a bit of a winger yourself.
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Old 3rd May 2006, 18:43
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I would have preferred Moaning Cabin Crew... Ah, there you have it; moaning again.
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Old 3rd May 2006, 20:56
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The whole rich family thing intrigues me.

Do you not think the paid for pilot is any good?
Would you not respect him/her?
How do you know and more importantly what business is it of ours to know about the funding of the training and the financial situation of the guy/girl sat next to you?
If offered, would we have not taken the money?

Last edited by quattro1; 3rd May 2006 at 21:09.
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Old 3rd May 2006, 21:03
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Feel like moaning.....

Asked for steak the other day, got chicken instead!!! Can you believe it??!!??

Great view though!!!!
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Old 3rd May 2006, 21:07
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As long as the pilot isn't just sitting there because of his/her money then I wouldn't have a problem. If he/she is just there for a ride and doesn't appreciate his/her good fortune or what others have had to do, then I would not respect him/her.
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Old 3rd May 2006, 21:12
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CW

No one can buy an ATPL. They all need to have worked at, sat and passed the same exams that you or I have.

Quattro
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Old 3rd May 2006, 21:14
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Quattro1,

Couldn't care less if the person in the flightdeck is from a rich family or not.

What pissess a lot of us off (DOH.. moaning again!) are airlines selecting new pilots on their willingness and ability to pay for the job by subsidising said airlines training budget. The skills, education and experience levels count for nothing when it's your wallet that get you the job.

Blue Foot
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Old 3rd May 2006, 21:16
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Blue Foot

Fair point and I agree entirely.
Just playing devils advocate really, those rich kids get a slating on here!

Quattro
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