BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
Controversial, moi?
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,622
Likes: 22
From: UK
In my 10 years at BA I can hoestly say that I have never ever heard staff feeling so de-motivated as they feel right now.
Tristar you clearly have little understanding of how business operates and if you have been in BA 10 years and care to look objectively at BA it has changed massively in that time and addressed many of the legacy issues from the good old nationalised industry days. There is still very much more to be done.
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 1,691
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From: UK
problems first, before spending lavish sums of cash on a product that is already sufficient, and selling extremely well, before the BIG move to the BIG HOUSE at LHR, before the pension crisis is sorted, and before the fleet upgrade. Invest - YES - in the right direction and at the right time.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 234
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From: UNITED KINGDOM
Much like the Private Eye (UK satirical magazine) cartoon depicting 'Scenes you seldom see', when have you ever heard an employee of any company say 'of course morale/motivation is on the increase'? The trouble whenever anybody starts tallking of morale it decreases!
Tristar you clearly have little understanding of how business operates and if you have been in BA 10 years and care to look objectively at BA it has changed massively in that time and addressed many of the legacy issues from the good old nationalised industry days. There is still very much more to be done.
Tristar you clearly have little understanding of how business operates and if you have been in BA 10 years and care to look objectively at BA it has changed massively in that time and addressed many of the legacy issues from the good old nationalised industry days. There is still very much more to be done.
Yes BA has changed over my 10 year tenure - but tell me if going on line for just about everything is the way to save money and attract customers. BA is a people-focused business, and personal contact is what we USED to pride our self on. Not now. I cant tell you how many times passengers have come up to me and my fellow empolyees to complain and vent frustration at lack of personal care and attention. Yes it is cheaper to do it all on line, but at what price in terms of tickets lost...
Oh and the Private Eye sketch... Yes I agree. Just ask anyone in BA right now and no one will ever say morale is on the increase, but hey, there isnt much morale left at all presently. Strike threats by various departments (Christmas bookings down already...), court action threat, pension defecit and the shutdown of the regions, and possible closure of GLA cabin crew base. Thats before the cost of renewing the LGW fleet and partial B747 fleet replacement! Dont be fooled into thinking T5 will save the day.
Joined: Apr 1999
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From: UK
Tristar500 - you are starting to sound like King Canute sitting on the beach commanding the tide to retreat. You cannot turn back the tide of online progress. Online check in is here, and it is popular with the passengers. I would rather check in online than queue for 20 minutes. If they could just find the way to avoid me queuing for the fast bag drop it would be even better. People are booking tickets online in preference to waiting on the phone for 15 mins for a salesperson. They do that because they compare prices online and then buy what they find. Self service check in is faster than queueing at the airport especially on a busy day.
On the one hand you complain that we can't compete with the locos, then you say that the domestic network is disappearing and we should be a people-orientated business. Well I'm going to have to give you a harsh dose of reality but if you want the domestic network to succeed then you are going to have to start emulating the locos in terms of cost base, because the premiums we can charge don't cover the cost of the extra service we offer, especially when many of the extra services we offer, such as baggage handling, pushback tugs etc don't even add value - they cost more and perform worse than ground handling agents. I used to get a lot less hassle and a lot more on time departures on a turnaround at NCL than I did at EDI, and as a passenger I saw no significant difference in the service levels landside.
On the one hand you complain that we can't compete with the locos, then you say that the domestic network is disappearing and we should be a people-orientated business. Well I'm going to have to give you a harsh dose of reality but if you want the domestic network to succeed then you are going to have to start emulating the locos in terms of cost base, because the premiums we can charge don't cover the cost of the extra service we offer, especially when many of the extra services we offer, such as baggage handling, pushback tugs etc don't even add value - they cost more and perform worse than ground handling agents. I used to get a lot less hassle and a lot more on time departures on a turnaround at NCL than I did at EDI, and as a passenger I saw no significant difference in the service levels landside.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9
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From: Under the LHR flight path
Solution ?
Hi, first post, and let me first make out, I'm not attacking anyone personaly, I'm purly making my point of view.
Surly doesn't everything link together. BA want (and depending on how you see it ,need) new aircrafts, that costs lots and lots of money. But that would be diverting money from your pension right ?
BA needed the new club world, and again cost money, and again, you could say that was taking money away from the pension problems.
So, you need money for your pensions, but BA need to pay for the NCW, new aircrafts, all the other costs, and the debt. But when you threaten to strike, you take bookings away, that means BA loose money. Your penions won't exaclty be too bad even with this change, your wages won't be too bad and you are still amoung the highest paid people in the airline (I'm refering to Captains)
One question, why should you get special treatment ?, other jobs have had their pensions and wages changed, why should only you get special treatment ? If BA offered to keep your pensions and retirement age the same, but everyone else had to sacrafise, would you prepare to strike becuase they have to make a sacrafise ?, saddly, I don't think so. It seems like a 'me me me' aproach. If the SM's were protesting for a better pension like you, you'd most likely be raising hell.
You complain about these 'high paid and greedy managers' and yet, I know that pilots are higher paid than most SM's that you refer to. Infact, when there were MG and SM cuts, there was a notice of Q and A's, and one of the questions was 'can pilot managers go back to being a pilot if they are laid off', and the answer was YES. No other departments got that option.
Eveyone wants to make themselves out as the poor guy, or the baddly treated guy. If you love the airline as much as you do, why don't you make the sacrafise and work untill 60, everyone else has to, so why not you ? Would you rather have a cut pension and a job, or force BA under ?
Wrightbrothers
Surly doesn't everything link together. BA want (and depending on how you see it ,need) new aircrafts, that costs lots and lots of money. But that would be diverting money from your pension right ?
BA needed the new club world, and again cost money, and again, you could say that was taking money away from the pension problems.
So, you need money for your pensions, but BA need to pay for the NCW, new aircrafts, all the other costs, and the debt. But when you threaten to strike, you take bookings away, that means BA loose money. Your penions won't exaclty be too bad even with this change, your wages won't be too bad and you are still amoung the highest paid people in the airline (I'm refering to Captains)
One question, why should you get special treatment ?, other jobs have had their pensions and wages changed, why should only you get special treatment ? If BA offered to keep your pensions and retirement age the same, but everyone else had to sacrafise, would you prepare to strike becuase they have to make a sacrafise ?, saddly, I don't think so. It seems like a 'me me me' aproach. If the SM's were protesting for a better pension like you, you'd most likely be raising hell.
You complain about these 'high paid and greedy managers' and yet, I know that pilots are higher paid than most SM's that you refer to. Infact, when there were MG and SM cuts, there was a notice of Q and A's, and one of the questions was 'can pilot managers go back to being a pilot if they are laid off', and the answer was YES. No other departments got that option.
Eveyone wants to make themselves out as the poor guy, or the baddly treated guy. If you love the airline as much as you do, why don't you make the sacrafise and work untill 60, everyone else has to, so why not you ? Would you rather have a cut pension and a job, or force BA under ?
Wrightbrothers
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
From: West London
In a sickening parallel to the British car industry, British Leyland finally went under whilst its executive leadership were spending 70% of their time working out how to screw the staff. They were so busy trying to extract revenge over the unions, they lost sight of why they were in business in the first place, and simply forgot about the product.
Those who fail to learn the lessons of history . . .
Those who fail to learn the lessons of history . . .
If we are comparing ourselves to a defunct nationalised manufacturing poorhouse, then is there any real hope for us?
We can be better than that surely?
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Not far enough from an airport
Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Being a member of the certfied oily rag population, many of us would jump at the chance of being represented by a professional organisation, and not the Sh'Amicus we have now. I would also like to add that the majority of us are in NAPS and are willing to fight for our contracted pensions.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,981
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From: UK
But I can say this: from the passenger's point of view, the current Club World is out of date. The upgrade is definitely required. BA will never be top of the pack, but it must always be near it. And the hard product (ie the seat) has started slipping fast down the quality rankings.
Also, you have to remember this. Passengers who can choose their carrier have a lot of inertia. By the passenger figures drop noticeably, you've already lost a lot of people who will be very difficult to get back - when they've found someone else they're comfortable with, they'll stick with their new buddies. Then you're in a double-whammy: you're spending money on upgrading the cabin at just the time that your cash flow and profitability take a dive because you didn't act sooner. And you end up spending the money as an emergency recovery measure, rather than a pro-active measure to keep the passengers where they are and to prevent the crisis from occurring.
If anything, NGCW is 18-24 months later than it should have been. There have been other priorities, and the financial situation of the company is the healthier for it. But it really couldn't have been delayed any longer. That would have been bad for everyone, employees included.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
From: West London
Are BA pilots really going to strike the Company into the dark ages (I'm not a pilot but I am a BA employee) and if so, can you tell me when as I'd like to avoid the chaos!
What happens to the pension fund then?
What happens to the pension fund then?
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
Quite the contrary, elNino, I do have it, but not from a company, I saved and provided my own.
Airline employees simply need to realise that large carriers are not much interested in their pilots welfare after retirement, so they had better save a little each month for the enevitable pension shortfall.
And...forget the country club dues, tennis club memberships, BMW's in the garage, boat in the harbor etc for if they don't they are likely to find that retirement is just slightly more speculative than they had figured on.
The BA CEO is surely right when he says...loyalty has no value.
Not true in years gone by, necessarily, but certainly true today...in spades.
Like it or lump it...and I expect few will like it very much.
Just the facts.
BA is NOT Imperial Airways anymore.
Long gone.
Airline employees simply need to realise that large carriers are not much interested in their pilots welfare after retirement, so they had better save a little each month for the enevitable pension shortfall.
And...forget the country club dues, tennis club memberships, BMW's in the garage, boat in the harbor etc for if they don't they are likely to find that retirement is just slightly more speculative than they had figured on.
The BA CEO is surely right when he says...loyalty has no value.
Not true in years gone by, necessarily, but certainly true today...in spades.
Like it or lump it...and I expect few will like it very much.
Just the facts.
BA is NOT Imperial Airways anymore.
Long gone.
Controversial, moi?
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,622
Likes: 22
From: UK
Are BA pilots really going to strike the Company into the dark ages
Trebles all round I say.
Why does 411A have such a massive chip on his shoulder?
Last edited by M.Mouse; 22nd November 2006 at 08:50.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
From: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Are BA pilots really going to strike the Company into the dark ages?
Not sure if you've noticed that they've been feathering their nests over the last few days by dumping shares. Willie and Keith made just under £1.5million between them last week. If you check the latest financial press, five directors (including one who has a significant connection to NAPS) have dumped just over 1,300,000 shares at 487.5p each. My maths makes that an average of £1.25million each. That's about the size of my overall pension pot when I retire.
The dark ages will be the least of their worries.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8
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From: Sidings, George, Albert, Viking, Gluepot, Hop Garden, The British, Union....
Demise of Bacon - a rehearsal?
It may pay you all to take a close eye on how WW is disposing of BA Connect now that it has been conveniently used to rub out BAR and has served its purpose.
A proportion of Bacon staff are in a FS pension scheme very similar to NAPS. It too is in deficit and prior to the slashing exercise, a plan had been urgently put in place to fix this. Now we know why there was such time pressure to get this done.
To make Bacon sellable BA have now had to top up the fund by a significant amount in order to keep the regulators off their backs. The problem now is that in order for the scheme to continue to be viable, it requires the new owner to continue to contribute.
Even though the BA top up has meant that the new owner’s (Flybe) required contribution rate would be relatively modest (probably similar to the MP scheme), not surprisingly there appears to be some reluctance on the part of Jim French to take this on. If Flybe do refuse to support the Scheme, then it could be forced into a windup and the creditors would be taken care of in the usual order. So those already receiving a pension get paid first, whilst current serving staff (and those who have left the company but not currently in receipt of a pension) would be at the bottom of the list and might not receive much at all if indeed anything. Meanwhile WW washes his hands of the whole thing.
If we assume the worst and BA avoid their responsibilities and leave Bacon staff high and dry, you can guarantee that it will be used as a template for WW’s next disposal coming to a place nearer and nearer the M25 soon.
Concerned - soon to be destitute Bacon pensioner of Birmingham.
A proportion of Bacon staff are in a FS pension scheme very similar to NAPS. It too is in deficit and prior to the slashing exercise, a plan had been urgently put in place to fix this. Now we know why there was such time pressure to get this done.
To make Bacon sellable BA have now had to top up the fund by a significant amount in order to keep the regulators off their backs. The problem now is that in order for the scheme to continue to be viable, it requires the new owner to continue to contribute.
Even though the BA top up has meant that the new owner’s (Flybe) required contribution rate would be relatively modest (probably similar to the MP scheme), not surprisingly there appears to be some reluctance on the part of Jim French to take this on. If Flybe do refuse to support the Scheme, then it could be forced into a windup and the creditors would be taken care of in the usual order. So those already receiving a pension get paid first, whilst current serving staff (and those who have left the company but not currently in receipt of a pension) would be at the bottom of the list and might not receive much at all if indeed anything. Meanwhile WW washes his hands of the whole thing.
If we assume the worst and BA avoid their responsibilities and leave Bacon staff high and dry, you can guarantee that it will be used as a template for WW’s next disposal coming to a place nearer and nearer the M25 soon.
Concerned - soon to be destitute Bacon pensioner of Birmingham.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
Chip?
Certainly no massive chip, M. Mouse, just reality.
The pilots (and others) at BA should have gotten the very strong hint about company funded pensions when the Mirror Group (ala Robert Maxwell) had their, shall we say...slight problem, and many were left high and dry.
But no, I expect many just put their heads in the sand and ignored.
Pilots, collectively, are really not very smart.
Individually, they do much better.
Nowhere is this truth more evident than ALPA in the USA.
Quite frankly, it's rather amusing watching this from the western side of the great devide.
In short...YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.
The pilots (and others) at BA should have gotten the very strong hint about company funded pensions when the Mirror Group (ala Robert Maxwell) had their, shall we say...slight problem, and many were left high and dry.
But no, I expect many just put their heads in the sand and ignored.
Pilots, collectively, are really not very smart.
Individually, they do much better.
Nowhere is this truth more evident than ALPA in the USA.
Quite frankly, it's rather amusing watching this from the western side of the great devide.
In short...YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
From: The Twilight Zone near 30W
The pilots (and others) at BA should have gotten the very strong hint about company funded pensions when the Mirror Group (ala Robert Maxwell) had their, shall we say...slight problem, and many were left high and dry.
Controversial, moi?
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,622
Likes: 22
From: UK
So those already receiving a pension get paid first, whilst current serving staff (and those who have left the company but not currently in receipt of a pension) would be at the bottom of the list and might not receive much at all if indeed anything.
And in reply to Chippy of Texas, quite what a crook like Maxwell illegally using a pension fund to illegally prop up his house of cards has to do with the price of eggs I am not sure.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
From: West London
Why?
M Mouse and others - You have replied about whether you feel up for a strike and how long that will last. You haven't answered the other question - and then what happened to our pension fund?
I'm interested - are you?
I'm interested - are you?
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: Sidings, George, Albert, Viking, Gluepot, Hop Garden, The British, Union....
Trouble is the BACON pension scheme is under Manx law (and is not part of UK legislation or Pension Protection Fund). So what you say is not true for us (sadly).
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
From: West London
Why?
M Mouse and others - You have replied about whether you feel up for a strike and how long that will last. You haven't answered the other question - and then what happens to our pension fund?
I'm interested - are you?
I'm interested - are you?