99% of easyjet pilots reject pay offer
Thread Starter
NSF,
I have read many of your posts and come to respect your opinions on this forum. Like yourself I think this deal needs to be thought about over a period of time. However I am tending to lean towards the view that says that what we have is "mutton dressed up as lamb" (not my words).
The principle of moving taxable sector pay and loyalty bonus into the basic salary is sound providing the uplift in basic salary is sufficient to ensure parity with the previous net pay plus a small increase for the annual pay rise. My concern is that what we have here is a new basic pay which has not been uplifted to ensure parity. In your case you "only" operated 450 net sectors last year which is much less than most - may I ask if you are a sim trainer?. I more realistic figure for the average line pilot is 500+ net sectors - at John Lennon 500 is an absolute minimum that I would expect to operate. Now complete the calculations for this figure and you will see that the proposal becomes less attractive.
Then there is the question of pension. I thought (hoped) that the company's pension contributions to become comparable with those of Mytravel, Virgin, First Choice, Thomsonfly, etc. This would have required a doubling of the company's pension contributions and for anyone saying that this is not achievable, if it can be achieved in the aforemantioned companies, it is attainable in easyJet. Now I would add the rider that the salary sacrafice needs to be explained somewhat, but from what I see it is in fact a tax-advantageous method of getting the staff to pay towards their own pension which is fine. BUT it should be done on the back of a 13 or 14% company contribution.
Finally there is the matter of differential pay which appears to have been accepted by the cc. This is a deal breaker for me and is totally unacceptable.
Please remember that we are in this for the common good. A balanced decision has to be reached taking all aspects of the offer into consideration. As I said, I am leaning towards a no.
I have read many of your posts and come to respect your opinions on this forum. Like yourself I think this deal needs to be thought about over a period of time. However I am tending to lean towards the view that says that what we have is "mutton dressed up as lamb" (not my words).
The principle of moving taxable sector pay and loyalty bonus into the basic salary is sound providing the uplift in basic salary is sufficient to ensure parity with the previous net pay plus a small increase for the annual pay rise. My concern is that what we have here is a new basic pay which has not been uplifted to ensure parity. In your case you "only" operated 450 net sectors last year which is much less than most - may I ask if you are a sim trainer?. I more realistic figure for the average line pilot is 500+ net sectors - at John Lennon 500 is an absolute minimum that I would expect to operate. Now complete the calculations for this figure and you will see that the proposal becomes less attractive.
Then there is the question of pension. I thought (hoped) that the company's pension contributions to become comparable with those of Mytravel, Virgin, First Choice, Thomsonfly, etc. This would have required a doubling of the company's pension contributions and for anyone saying that this is not achievable, if it can be achieved in the aforemantioned companies, it is attainable in easyJet. Now I would add the rider that the salary sacrafice needs to be explained somewhat, but from what I see it is in fact a tax-advantageous method of getting the staff to pay towards their own pension which is fine. BUT it should be done on the back of a 13 or 14% company contribution.
Finally there is the matter of differential pay which appears to have been accepted by the cc. This is a deal breaker for me and is totally unacceptable.
Please remember that we are in this for the common good. A balanced decision has to be reached taking all aspects of the offer into consideration. As I said, I am leaning towards a no.
Last edited by 10002level; 11th Feb 2006 at 11:39.
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10002level - Could not agree more! And as far as I'm concerned we are in this for the long run....then this "package" is faaaar off what we are looking for.....
/CP
/CP
Last edited by CaptainProp; 11th Feb 2006 at 08:07.
you were saying ???? wiz?? whats that ????
The agreement is that all current continental pilots get the payrise, and are paid exactley the same as UK pilots. New Milan pilots go onto the first tier pay, as they were always going to, while the whole issue is disscussed.
As I've said, it could well be in pilots interests to be paid a local deal given other countries labour laws, social serurity and tax regiems. Certainly the company was trying to have it both ways, but it hasn't happened in this deal.
Thread Starter
Wizofoz,
That is not me reading of the deal for Milan based pilots. My understanding is that only pilots who are temporarily based in Milan will be on the higher pay scales: pilots who permanently transfer to Milan will be employed on the first tier of the revised payscales, irrespective of the fact that they may currently be at a higher point.
I could be wrong though as it is not very clear.
That is not me reading of the deal for Milan based pilots. My understanding is that only pilots who are temporarily based in Milan will be on the higher pay scales: pilots who permanently transfer to Milan will be employed on the first tier of the revised payscales, irrespective of the fact that they may currently be at a higher point.
I could be wrong though as it is not very clear.
"New Starters to be recruited initially at either C1 or SF1/F1 (on new salary scales), pending the outcome of these discussions".
Like I said, there is no doubt the company wants to pay less in new bases, but this is at least a stay of execution.
Like I said, there is no doubt the company wants to pay less in new bases, but this is at least a stay of execution.
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Although it is not a total disaster, I too share some of your concerns. I have been producing a spreadsheet of permutations and will publish it as soon as I can compare like with like. Cheers.
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NSF - As others have stated before me, you have made some very good posts here on pprune lately regarding ezy and current negotiations. I have nothing but respect for you!
Now, IS THIS REALLY THE DEAL THAT YOU WERE EXPECTING??! IS THIS WHAT YOU THINK WE DESERVE? IS THIS REALLY WHAT WE SHOULD SETTLE FOR FROM A COMPANY THE SIZE OF EZY??
Tell me WHY I/we/BALPA should not vote NO and take this back to the table?
/CP
Stated on ezy/BAPLA forum - "Make no mistake, this is BALPA's Titanic moment in eJ." - I too think it is and we will NOT get another chance....
Now, IS THIS REALLY THE DEAL THAT YOU WERE EXPECTING??! IS THIS WHAT YOU THINK WE DESERVE? IS THIS REALLY WHAT WE SHOULD SETTLE FOR FROM A COMPANY THE SIZE OF EZY??
Tell me WHY I/we/BALPA should not vote NO and take this back to the table?
/CP
Stated on ezy/BAPLA forum - "Make no mistake, this is BALPA's Titanic moment in eJ." - I too think it is and we will NOT get another chance....
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Hi Chaps - the honest answer is that this is not the deal I had hoped but it is not an unmitigated disaster either. I have been working away to try and make head or tail of it and that alone tells its own story. If you have to work really hard to find out if you have had a pay rise or cut it is probably not good news!
We should say much has been achieved including rescuing our French and German colleagues from disaster. We have not been able to rescue the Milan situation but I never thought we would. The restructuring of pensionable pay has added the equivalent of 1% making it an effective 8%. The FOs are back in the hunt over the loyalty bonus issue and we are not now looking at a succession of pay cuts in the future as was the case previously.
It really all boils down to the Performance Bonus. I am slightly ill at ease at giving up a perfectly good loyalty bonus for a scheme which depends on our managers doing well or badly. I am not a gambling man and am naturally more attracted to a slightly lower but guaranteed return. Nonetheless, the whole offer stands or falls on how the company does. To quote from a contributor on the BALPA website, consider the case of a Year 2 Captain (C3) who does about 1 ASBY per month (12 per year) and about 450 sectors a year at Gatwick. If we do not hit our threshold then the deal is worth about 1.81% gross or 1.45% net. If, however, we get maximum bonus then the deal is worth 5.61% gross or 4.92% net.
Having now had much more time to analyse the offer, it is with great regret that I am leaning towards a NO vote. I had fully expected to be able to vote YES but at this stage it seems unlikely.
We should say much has been achieved including rescuing our French and German colleagues from disaster. We have not been able to rescue the Milan situation but I never thought we would. The restructuring of pensionable pay has added the equivalent of 1% making it an effective 8%. The FOs are back in the hunt over the loyalty bonus issue and we are not now looking at a succession of pay cuts in the future as was the case previously.
It really all boils down to the Performance Bonus. I am slightly ill at ease at giving up a perfectly good loyalty bonus for a scheme which depends on our managers doing well or badly. I am not a gambling man and am naturally more attracted to a slightly lower but guaranteed return. Nonetheless, the whole offer stands or falls on how the company does. To quote from a contributor on the BALPA website, consider the case of a Year 2 Captain (C3) who does about 1 ASBY per month (12 per year) and about 450 sectors a year at Gatwick. If we do not hit our threshold then the deal is worth about 1.81% gross or 1.45% net. If, however, we get maximum bonus then the deal is worth 5.61% gross or 4.92% net.
Having now had much more time to analyse the offer, it is with great regret that I am leaning towards a NO vote. I had fully expected to be able to vote YES but at this stage it seems unlikely.
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NSF
Some good words as always but just to be clear.
Nobody is giving up any loyalty bonus in favour of anything as every penny is now in salary and not dependent on any profit whatsoever.
To be completley fair, the profit related bonus hinges on everyone doing their bit rather than just the managers (although they obviously have a vita role to play in it). The good side of that is that the taget incentive is the same for them as it is for us - which it never has been before.
Some good words as always but just to be clear.
Nobody is giving up any loyalty bonus in favour of anything as every penny is now in salary and not dependent on any profit whatsoever.
To be completley fair, the profit related bonus hinges on everyone doing their bit rather than just the managers (although they obviously have a vita role to play in it). The good side of that is that the taget incentive is the same for them as it is for us - which it never has been before.
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NSF - I'm afraid I/we(?) will have to go down the "NO" lane... It's really sad that it was not a serious offer from the company...Would have made our life much easier.
FlapsOne - "The good side of that is that the taget incentive is the same for them as it is for us - which it never has been before."
This, I think, is a misinterpretation of the contract. One that the company wants us to read/understand like you have done. The deal states NOWHERE that we have "the same" terms as management, it just states - "Annual targets are common to those applied to senior management staff;"
In my eyes this means nothing....
Pension is too low...
Loss of licence is too low...
Still lower pay during first six months of duty, for DEC (They should not be here in the first place but....), FO AND upgrades!!
Have a nice weekend boys and girls!
/CP
FlapsOne - "The good side of that is that the taget incentive is the same for them as it is for us - which it never has been before."
This, I think, is a misinterpretation of the contract. One that the company wants us to read/understand like you have done. The deal states NOWHERE that we have "the same" terms as management, it just states - "Annual targets are common to those applied to senior management staff;"
In my eyes this means nothing....
Pension is too low...
Loss of licence is too low...
Still lower pay during first six months of duty, for DEC (They should not be here in the first place but....), FO AND upgrades!!
Have a nice weekend boys and girls!
/CP
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This is a quote from the covering letter from management that was issued with the propsed pay offer.
"Over the last 12-18 months the Flight Operations management team has been working on a strategy to engage you, our pilot community, with a fresh approach that reflects your professional status and the contribution you make to the success of easyJet. "
If that is the case why on earth did they offer such an insulting pay offer initiallly?
I believe this pay issue comes down to trust.
I don't trust them not to shaft the Milan pilots.
I don't trust them not to use airport standbys frequently
I don't trust them on their calculations - how many sectors was it based on?
They have used the reserve period in 5254 (which was supposed to be there to maintain roster stability) as a random rostering month.
In the trial - rarely did pilots do 5 earlies, yet now it is commonplace
They rarely keep their promisses on time scales for base transfers
They have plenty of SFO's waiting for command courses but they will still recruit DEC's.
The company have a lot of trust to win back and this opaque offering does nothing to rectify that at all.
Alone I feel that I have to vote NO to protect the interests of the Milan and otehr future bases, as this simply has to be stamped out. BALPA did say they would not allow this to happen...So why has it?
"Over the last 12-18 months the Flight Operations management team has been working on a strategy to engage you, our pilot community, with a fresh approach that reflects your professional status and the contribution you make to the success of easyJet. "
If that is the case why on earth did they offer such an insulting pay offer initiallly?
I believe this pay issue comes down to trust.
I don't trust them not to shaft the Milan pilots.
I don't trust them not to use airport standbys frequently
I don't trust them on their calculations - how many sectors was it based on?
They have used the reserve period in 5254 (which was supposed to be there to maintain roster stability) as a random rostering month.
In the trial - rarely did pilots do 5 earlies, yet now it is commonplace
They rarely keep their promisses on time scales for base transfers
They have plenty of SFO's waiting for command courses but they will still recruit DEC's.
The company have a lot of trust to win back and this opaque offering does nothing to rectify that at all.
Alone I feel that I have to vote NO to protect the interests of the Milan and otehr future bases, as this simply has to be stamped out. BALPA did say they would not allow this to happen...So why has it?
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ist time post!!
I have read the above thread with interest and just wanted to add a pretty average Capts view on the latest pay deal!
Having spent the last few months persuading collegues to join up at BALPA I am dismayed at the deal that is being propsed. I appreciate the work the cc have done thus far but the deal presented on Fri is just a rearrangement of current pay, having number crunched we end up a few hundered (yes, hundred) better off!! The reaction in the crew room has been one of exasperation and bewilderment.. I am sorry to say that my vote will be NO as I had fully expected it to be agreeing a fairer deal by this stage. A NO vote means hard times ahead but there is certainly the will to push this a lot further, the lesson is that the ballot will say NO until the deal is FAIR!!!
x1200!!!!
Having spent the last few months persuading collegues to join up at BALPA I am dismayed at the deal that is being propsed. I appreciate the work the cc have done thus far but the deal presented on Fri is just a rearrangement of current pay, having number crunched we end up a few hundered (yes, hundred) better off!! The reaction in the crew room has been one of exasperation and bewilderment.. I am sorry to say that my vote will be NO as I had fully expected it to be agreeing a fairer deal by this stage. A NO vote means hard times ahead but there is certainly the will to push this a lot further, the lesson is that the ballot will say NO until the deal is FAIR!!!
x1200!!!!
Career airline my ar5e!
I'm sorry but if other airlines which are nowhere near as profitable as easyJet can pay their pilots better than what we get paid including pensions I don't see any reason why easyJet cannot pay us the going rate.
easyJet can easily afford it and still be one of the most profitable airlines in europe but refuse, I have been with easyJet for nearly a year and I'm already getting fed up with working to the max and having no life
This new deal looks no better than the previous one, so it's a big NO from me.
I say we show this company how valuable we are to them making their money by parking the aircraft up and they will soon see how much we are worth!!
easyJet can easily afford it and still be one of the most profitable airlines in europe but refuse, I have been with easyJet for nearly a year and I'm already getting fed up with working to the max and having no life
This new deal looks no better than the previous one, so it's a big NO from me.
I say we show this company how valuable we are to them making their money by parking the aircraft up and they will soon see how much we are worth!!
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Sounds like Easy are using classic stalling with a little smoke and mirrors in their offers.
Stone Cold you said it. Other airlines that do not make anywhere near the profit Easy make have much better terms and conditions. Good luck boys/girls and remember you can always just shut the airline down for a week and then maybe they will listen.........
Your fellow aviators across the apron are watching with interest!
Stone Cold you said it. Other airlines that do not make anywhere near the profit Easy make have much better terms and conditions. Good luck boys/girls and remember you can always just shut the airline down for a week and then maybe they will listen.........
Your fellow aviators across the apron are watching with interest!
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I was with Easy for a number of years and guess what........nothing changed then and it isn't changing now.
The culture is fixed in place now thanks to Webster and I reckon it's a simple choice if you want real change.
1/ You need to seriously get their attention by parking the a/c at least for a short time and get real about the stakes- so far the management are contemptuous of Balpa'a efforts and will continue so until you prove you mean business.
2/ Find another job! The grass is sometimes greener in spite of what is often said here, there are worse companies than Easy too of course.
I'm with Ryanair now and yes, it's hard work and there are downsides....BUT..
They don't pretent to be cuddly and my own experience and that of just about everyone here who is ex- Easy is that they much prefer Ryanair.(Base as usual does have a bearing)
I rarely get roster changes and when I do it's generally because something went wrong on the day and I clear 5k+ most months.(Total package maybe not too different from Easy but still a bit better)The -800's are in very good nick and the standards in my experience are generally good.(Those of you who know me will appreciate I've been around enough to compare!)
The month before I left easy 70% of my published roster was changed and for me that was not unusual and totally unacceptable in an airline like Easy- believe me if Ryanair can achieve stable rosters so could they.
I'm using Ryanair as an example because of their poor reputation and the fact that they are in the same business as Easy. Ultimately I'm sure both managements couldn't care less about the pilot workforce as long as they behave inside certain guidelines so I basically went for Rosters and Cash and it was a good choice for now.
Good Luck either way.
The culture is fixed in place now thanks to Webster and I reckon it's a simple choice if you want real change.
1/ You need to seriously get their attention by parking the a/c at least for a short time and get real about the stakes- so far the management are contemptuous of Balpa'a efforts and will continue so until you prove you mean business.
2/ Find another job! The grass is sometimes greener in spite of what is often said here, there are worse companies than Easy too of course.
I'm with Ryanair now and yes, it's hard work and there are downsides....BUT..
They don't pretent to be cuddly and my own experience and that of just about everyone here who is ex- Easy is that they much prefer Ryanair.(Base as usual does have a bearing)
I rarely get roster changes and when I do it's generally because something went wrong on the day and I clear 5k+ most months.(Total package maybe not too different from Easy but still a bit better)The -800's are in very good nick and the standards in my experience are generally good.(Those of you who know me will appreciate I've been around enough to compare!)
The month before I left easy 70% of my published roster was changed and for me that was not unusual and totally unacceptable in an airline like Easy- believe me if Ryanair can achieve stable rosters so could they.
I'm using Ryanair as an example because of their poor reputation and the fact that they are in the same business as Easy. Ultimately I'm sure both managements couldn't care less about the pilot workforce as long as they behave inside certain guidelines so I basically went for Rosters and Cash and it was a good choice for now.
Good Luck either way.
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Originally Posted by FlapsOne
CaptProp
The targets are the same...............sorry!
The targets are the same...............sorry!
How do you know that the targets are the same?? I have no idea...so I'm open for inputs here, NOT pointing fingers....
/CP