Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
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Re: Swiss European Air Lines - Pheonix or Funeral
Originally Posted by gofer
But for me the saddest statement comes today from the liquidator of Swissair who has moved to the opinion that the company could have been saved !
As far as I remember (see the Ernst & Young Report), all board members were perfectly aware of the costs of the Brugisser Hunter strategy: Corti and Credit Suisse CEO Mühlemann voiced their concern as soon as 2000 (before Brugisser's sacking), but failed to take action.
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Gretchen, you have to compare the business models, not the country size. What an unreflected comment you made. Just because USA has a well working LCC Southwest doesn't mean that Europe also has to have 300+ 737! "It's the business model, stupid!" (free after Bill Clinton).
Belgium might have more people than CH but that doesn't mean that they need more or bigger aircraft. It depends on the market, and that one is bigger in Switzerland because of its economical characteristics, its geografical location aso. SN not only operates regional a/c but also a whole fleet of A320 und A330. They are operated by former regional pilots at their respective pay.
Hence most of the 2.5 bn were spent due to a complete off-the-market modell, called 26/26, which was only invented by some Aeropers number wizzards. You have to know: The whole government had no single independent consultant and relied only on Aeropers power group - which was of course in favour of their aircraft.
But I can guarantee you, that Suters/Ospels business with Embraer 170 (once 100 on order) would have worked. Unfortunately at the very same time the Avro Crash in Bassersdorf happened, so Aeropers could play the "we are better song".
And about this repeated union bash: Sorry, I have to disagree: Crossair pilots never wanted more, never wanted the same pay, never wanted to take over. They just wanted that their contracts where granted. Which is a fair right. They said: sorry, we do not accept the slaughter of our workforce in favour of Aeropers. Dose said, no problem, I will negotiate in your sense. Which he didn't of course. Franz said: I can't attack Aeropers, they are too strong. So he attacks SPA. And finally, Brennwald, now COO of Swiss, former Aeropers member: My task is only fullfilled when the last Crossair pilots has been sacked. Gretchen, you want more?
Dani
Belgium might have more people than CH but that doesn't mean that they need more or bigger aircraft. It depends on the market, and that one is bigger in Switzerland because of its economical characteristics, its geografical location aso. SN not only operates regional a/c but also a whole fleet of A320 und A330. They are operated by former regional pilots at their respective pay.
Hence most of the 2.5 bn were spent due to a complete off-the-market modell, called 26/26, which was only invented by some Aeropers number wizzards. You have to know: The whole government had no single independent consultant and relied only on Aeropers power group - which was of course in favour of their aircraft.
But I can guarantee you, that Suters/Ospels business with Embraer 170 (once 100 on order) would have worked. Unfortunately at the very same time the Avro Crash in Bassersdorf happened, so Aeropers could play the "we are better song".
And about this repeated union bash: Sorry, I have to disagree: Crossair pilots never wanted more, never wanted the same pay, never wanted to take over. They just wanted that their contracts where granted. Which is a fair right. They said: sorry, we do not accept the slaughter of our workforce in favour of Aeropers. Dose said, no problem, I will negotiate in your sense. Which he didn't of course. Franz said: I can't attack Aeropers, they are too strong. So he attacks SPA. And finally, Brennwald, now COO of Swiss, former Aeropers member: My task is only fullfilled when the last Crossair pilots has been sacked. Gretchen, you want more?
Dani
Last edited by Dani; 17th Jan 2006 at 14:22.
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Dani
I just start to realise that you are by no means the wind up merchant i thought you were. You really
do believe in what you write, don't you!
If Suters model would have worked, why on earth is there nobody to try it today? I was taught that where
there is a market, there will be a Moritz to tempt it. And where there is none, there's either subsidy
or failure. Why does nobody just blow away foul SWISS and at the same Easy with some 80 much better suited,
smaller Barbie-jets? Maybe because this market is in your dreams only?
You say LX pilots never wanted more. So why did they go to court, battling for the same conditions as the
Aeropers SH-guys? It didn't say so in their contract, allthough you pretend they just wanted the latter
enforced. They didn't accept a slaughter of their places in favour of AP, but some time earlier they very
happily accepted the new Avro's to replace slaughtered Fokker's, didn't they? Finally they supposedly didn't
want to take over: You might have missed the first common meeting (CCP/AP pilots) called in by Th.Hä., or
you would remember his very words "now we take over, you may join in behind".
But maybe this was in MY dreams only......
I lose myself in useless backward discussions, i know. I just feel sorry for guys who try to explain their
bad experience in Swiss aviation with the supposed almost secular bad influence of Aeropers. If you followed
some of my posts, you realise that i am by no means a friend of them, but i definetely don't attribute
them as much power as a lot of people do. It's just too easy to overlook own shortcomings by bashing others.
At least you seem to have succeeded in another place. Be proud and reconsider the past with the most
possible objectivity. You might help others to overcome their paranoia who need it more.
GF
I just start to realise that you are by no means the wind up merchant i thought you were. You really
do believe in what you write, don't you!
If Suters model would have worked, why on earth is there nobody to try it today? I was taught that where
there is a market, there will be a Moritz to tempt it. And where there is none, there's either subsidy
or failure. Why does nobody just blow away foul SWISS and at the same Easy with some 80 much better suited,
smaller Barbie-jets? Maybe because this market is in your dreams only?
You say LX pilots never wanted more. So why did they go to court, battling for the same conditions as the
Aeropers SH-guys? It didn't say so in their contract, allthough you pretend they just wanted the latter
enforced. They didn't accept a slaughter of their places in favour of AP, but some time earlier they very
happily accepted the new Avro's to replace slaughtered Fokker's, didn't they? Finally they supposedly didn't
want to take over: You might have missed the first common meeting (CCP/AP pilots) called in by Th.Hä., or
you would remember his very words "now we take over, you may join in behind".
But maybe this was in MY dreams only......
I lose myself in useless backward discussions, i know. I just feel sorry for guys who try to explain their
bad experience in Swiss aviation with the supposed almost secular bad influence of Aeropers. If you followed
some of my posts, you realise that i am by no means a friend of them, but i definetely don't attribute
them as much power as a lot of people do. It's just too easy to overlook own shortcomings by bashing others.
At least you seem to have succeeded in another place. Be proud and reconsider the past with the most
possible objectivity. You might help others to overcome their paranoia who need it more.
GF
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Originally Posted by Gretchenfrage
Dani
You say LX pilots never wanted more. So why did they go to court, battling for the same conditions as the Aeropers SH-guys?
You say LX pilots never wanted more. So why did they go to court, battling for the same conditions as the Aeropers SH-guys?
And don't tell me big plane, big salary and small plane, small salary: The ex-SWR pilots threated Swissair to go on strike when the Fokker were introduced, if the managment would start with salaries based on type...
If the SPA goes on court again now is, I guess, just to stop this discrimination which is still going on, and not only for the salary, but also for the life style, roster, vacation, etc... Do you think it is too much to ask
?I had a nice talk with an friend who still work there: They don't request more, they just want fairness by keeping their actual contract. But they do ask to have the same condition for pilots flying the same routes. Just to name one stupidity: ZRH-GVA,35min flight time, flown by Avro's and A319, 320 and 321: With the Avro it's a european route( and salary) and flown by Airbus, it's considered as long haul
!!! Can someone explain??? The first Swiss's management told the governement and the public:"We make a company based on the structure's cost of Crossair!" And now we see it as a Swissair n°2, with Airbus pilots still having a salary of more than 30% above the EMB and Avro pilots FLYING THE SAME ROUTE!!!!!!
If they really want to make this airline back on track, why don't they include the A319-321 family on the SWU??? Because they know they have to fight against a very powerfull union, AP to name it, and they will loose!!! Like it or not, AP DO HAVE political connection and this is a fact!The prime goal of the Swiss and SWU management is now to make these 2 companies attractive enough for Lufthansa until the take over is complete and they will jump out of the boat in due time...
D-71
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"Suter's model" would have been based on rationality. It doesn't necessarily need to be under Suter. For those who know the international economy: UBS is the biggest Swiss bank, with the best profit margins. They never take over a project if they are not sure about the profit. That's why Ospel paid 300 Mio CHF for Crossair and wanted to continue a prospering aviation industry. On the other hand there is Rainer E. Gut, Credit Suisse, representative of the Zurich branch of the party FDP, who is much more of a politician than a manager. Should I explain you the good relationship between Ex-Aeropers member Brennwald (COO of Swiss) and Rainer E. Gut?
Now how should someone else found a new company beside Swiss and run it succesfull? Would they get the money? Would they get the political support? Wouldn't they be suppressed immediatly by Swiss and LH? Helvetic tried it very hard, but had no chance against Swiss. The market in Switzerland is good, but not good enough for two main carrier! We had just one chance to save an aviation industry in Switzerland, and we did terribly wrong.
Concerning SPA wanting the same as Aeropers: Of course you have to suit them for the same, but they never wanted to earn as much as Swissair pilots. Of course they would have liked to, but they where always very modest and realistic. That's why they have so few problems to get jobs somewhere else (unlike some Swissair pilots...!)
Thomas Häderli didn't want to be so radical, but they let him no choice. They wanted to sack all of Crossair, so he fought back. A compromise was never found. And every compromise that was offered was used to sack some more. Give every Crossair pilot a job like his old Crx job and he will accept. Like all Darwin pilots do.
Gretchen, deep in your heart you know, that the only chance for a succesful airline would have laid in modesty, rationality and efficiency. Swiss' patriotism played a big role in all this and lead to a failure. I agree that we should accept the past. But let's at least learn out of our faults. To do it better next time (if there should be one).
Dani
Now how should someone else found a new company beside Swiss and run it succesfull? Would they get the money? Would they get the political support? Wouldn't they be suppressed immediatly by Swiss and LH? Helvetic tried it very hard, but had no chance against Swiss. The market in Switzerland is good, but not good enough for two main carrier! We had just one chance to save an aviation industry in Switzerland, and we did terribly wrong.
Concerning SPA wanting the same as Aeropers: Of course you have to suit them for the same, but they never wanted to earn as much as Swissair pilots. Of course they would have liked to, but they where always very modest and realistic. That's why they have so few problems to get jobs somewhere else (unlike some Swissair pilots...!)
Thomas Häderli didn't want to be so radical, but they let him no choice. They wanted to sack all of Crossair, so he fought back. A compromise was never found. And every compromise that was offered was used to sack some more. Give every Crossair pilot a job like his old Crx job and he will accept. Like all Darwin pilots do.
Gretchen, deep in your heart you know, that the only chance for a succesful airline would have laid in modesty, rationality and efficiency. Swiss' patriotism played a big role in all this and lead to a failure. I agree that we should accept the past. But let's at least learn out of our faults. To do it better next time (if there should be one).
Dani
Last edited by Dani; 18th Jan 2006 at 13:27.
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Dani
Your last few words: Spot on.
Danou-71, your quote:
"They wanted to have Aeropers to have the same condition as they had!!! This is called fairness!!!"
In other words pull down guys who had it better! Even though they had a better qualification, and that's what a A320 vs. Saab or Avro rating really is, after all. Nothing personal, just a fact on the job market.
There were some countries who tried this for some time. This system failed, it might have sounded romantic, but it failed. If you still think this way, go and stay in Cuba.
You know that joke about the two US beggars lying in the gutter in NY?
They observe a rich mogul stepping out of his limousine, with a delightful chick in his arm. The one sais to the other: I bet, one day i'll be just like that guy. Two Swiss beggars see the same and the one says: I bet one of these days this guy will just lie next to us.
That's exactly our screwed up mentality.
I'd rather try to get the same as the ones who have it better than me, but definitely without having to pull them down for that sake.
GF
Your last few words: Spot on.
Danou-71, your quote:
"They wanted to have Aeropers to have the same condition as they had!!! This is called fairness!!!"
In other words pull down guys who had it better! Even though they had a better qualification, and that's what a A320 vs. Saab or Avro rating really is, after all. Nothing personal, just a fact on the job market.
There were some countries who tried this for some time. This system failed, it might have sounded romantic, but it failed. If you still think this way, go and stay in Cuba.
You know that joke about the two US beggars lying in the gutter in NY?
They observe a rich mogul stepping out of his limousine, with a delightful chick in his arm. The one sais to the other: I bet, one day i'll be just like that guy. Two Swiss beggars see the same and the one says: I bet one of these days this guy will just lie next to us.
That's exactly our screwed up mentality.
I'd rather try to get the same as the ones who have it better than me, but definitely without having to pull them down for that sake.
GF
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[quote=Voeni]Excellent words, stumpie, every word!
Thin Albert: People like you are the real problem in Swiss aviation, still bashing each other although there's almost nothing anymore to fight about! I'm sick of guys like you, but on the other hand I take pity with you, I'm sure life's no fun with such bitterness in it! Just my opinion... (and I'm not SR!)
Voeni,of course you are not SR ,you are nothing ,you have no clue whats going on.
So do what you can do best,fail recruitments and stay away from flightdecks.
Cheerio
Thin Albert
Thin Albert: People like you are the real problem in Swiss aviation, still bashing each other although there's almost nothing anymore to fight about! I'm sick of guys like you, but on the other hand I take pity with you, I'm sure life's no fun with such bitterness in it! Just my opinion... (and I'm not SR!)
Voeni,of course you are not SR ,you are nothing ,you have no clue whats going on.
So do what you can do best,fail recruitments and stay away from flightdecks.
Cheerio
Thin Albert
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Dani,
I don't know anything about your swiss household, but all you are saying about SN is wrong.
What you call a fleet of 320-330 is three 319 and three 330.
They are mainly flown by ex-sabena guys at a higher salary.
I was a contractor there because a lot of the regionals failed their conversion to the bus.
The regionals and the ex sabena guys can drink each others blood, despite the fact that years ago the Sabena guys dropped part of their salary to raise the regional salary...
Loads are bad, CEO ran away, a new one put in place for 12 months only, so probably to do some dirty work.
The airport and the state are protecting the airline and probably keeping it artificially alive.
The numerous ex Sabena managers are still driving big company cars though!
I don't know anything about your swiss household, but all you are saying about SN is wrong.
What you call a fleet of 320-330 is three 319 and three 330.
They are mainly flown by ex-sabena guys at a higher salary.
I was a contractor there because a lot of the regionals failed their conversion to the bus.
The regionals and the ex sabena guys can drink each others blood, despite the fact that years ago the Sabena guys dropped part of their salary to raise the regional salary...
Loads are bad, CEO ran away, a new one put in place for 12 months only, so probably to do some dirty work.
The airport and the state are protecting the airline and probably keeping it artificially alive.
The numerous ex Sabena managers are still driving big company cars though!
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uuuuh - what's the difference between a 319 and a 320? Common guys...
Once you say they trained regional pilots on the airbus, once you say Sabena pilots still do? I know Belgium and SN Brussels good enough. Those former Sabena pilots are paid the regional pay now, and they are not a majority. Lots of them are abroad or are still unemployed. Of course the change from turboprop to Airbus is a big step, and some (mainly older guys) fail. But you can't say that Sabena is still in place. There has been a radical chance, the one that Swiss didn't do. SN made profit the first year, and you may argue that those numbers can always be put one way or the other, at least they didn't consume 2.5 bn in 3 years!
Once you say they trained regional pilots on the airbus, once you say Sabena pilots still do? I know Belgium and SN Brussels good enough. Those former Sabena pilots are paid the regional pay now, and they are not a majority. Lots of them are abroad or are still unemployed. Of course the change from turboprop to Airbus is a big step, and some (mainly older guys) fail. But you can't say that Sabena is still in place. There has been a radical chance, the one that Swiss didn't do. SN made profit the first year, and you may argue that those numbers can always be put one way or the other, at least they didn't consume 2.5 bn in 3 years!
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Quote: (Dani)
"Of course the change from turboprop to Airbus is a big step, and some (mainly older guys)fail."
-Sorry Dani, but that's rubbish.....
Quote: (sarah737)
"I was a contractor there because a lot of the regionals failed their conversion to the bus."
-I'm wondering who did train or rather failed them.........
--------------------------------------------------------
I'm a former CRX pilot who is flying Airbus now,
and I was ONLY a Crossair regional pilot before that.
The 320 rating was much easier than any other rating before!
By the way, I was flying to Zurich today,
with a load factor of wich Swiss would dream of !!!
p.s. Swissair-Aeropers propoganda is only working in the NZZ and Blick,
BUT not in the real aviation world!!!!!
"Of course the change from turboprop to Airbus is a big step, and some (mainly older guys)fail."
-Sorry Dani, but that's rubbish.....
Quote: (sarah737)
"I was a contractor there because a lot of the regionals failed their conversion to the bus."
-I'm wondering who did train or rather failed them.........
--------------------------------------------------------
I'm a former CRX pilot who is flying Airbus now,
and I was ONLY a Crossair regional pilot before that.
The 320 rating was much easier than any other rating before!
By the way, I was flying to Zurich today,
with a load factor of wich Swiss would dream of !!!
p.s. Swissair-Aeropers propoganda
is only working in the NZZ and Blick,BUT not in the real aviation world!!!!!
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Completely agree with 320push-n-puller. I´m flying a Airbus now and it´s very easy and forgiving to fly. Much easier in avionics than say a 737, much easier in handling than say a Saab 2000.
When I remember the safety bulletin´s we used to get at Swiss, and the number of flap overspeeds Swiss was getting on it´s Airbus 320 fleet. Configurating in time is perhaps one of the few things on the Airbus that you actually need a little bit of brainpower for and guess what: the ex-Swissair Aeropers ´astronauts´ are having problems with it...
When I remember the safety bulletin´s we used to get at Swiss, and the number of flap overspeeds Swiss was getting on it´s Airbus 320 fleet. Configurating in time is perhaps one of the few things on the Airbus that you actually need a little bit of brainpower for and guess what: the ex-Swissair Aeropers ´astronauts´ are having problems with it...
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I'm flying the A320 as well and I agree with you both. I just say: there is a certain failure rate, especially with older pilots, you can't discuss it away. For us younger guys who ever have flown modern cockpits, this is no problem at all.
Dani
Dani
