Age 60 Battle vs ALPA
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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I have four ex-wives, three of which I am still paying for, and between them, seven children to support, only two have finished college. My social responsibilities to my families are enormous, to take away my income at age sixty would be tantamount to seriously compromising the lives of many people. I would have to sell my ranch, my sports cars, and my Piper Cub on floats, not to mention giving up the golf and yacht club memberships. Liposuction and cosmetic surgery? No chance!
LHR Rain, I’m supporting a lot of people, I think I should be allowed to fly past 60.
LHR Rain, I’m supporting a lot of people, I think I should be allowed to fly past 60.
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Rainman
Have you ever thought about seeking counselling? I think you ought to before your next flight. - quote
Why? Because his opinion is different than yours? His posts may not be very articulate I admit but he obviously feels very strongly about this, as do you.
It made sense back when we had a lot more pilots than seats, but not in today's market. -quote
??? What are you talking about? There are still more pilots than seats.
People, lets not resort to calling someone names just because he doesn't agree with you. We're all adults.
Have you ever thought about seeking counselling? I think you ought to before your next flight. - quote
Why? Because his opinion is different than yours? His posts may not be very articulate I admit but he obviously feels very strongly about this, as do you.
It made sense back when we had a lot more pilots than seats, but not in today's market. -quote
??? What are you talking about? There are still more pilots than seats.
People, lets not resort to calling someone names just because he doesn't agree with you. We're all adults.
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Oh no there are not!
That there are more pilots than seats, well, yes. but not a LOT more pilots than seats, as was the case when the legislation we are squabbling over came into force. Back then you had a rather small airline industry fed with a steady supply of very high-grade pilots coming out of the US military. Now we have an expanded industry scrambling to find high-grade pilots. Just look at some of the accidents nowadays, which show a real lack of experience.
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So whats easier ?
The young guy with big debt, young children and little or no jetPIC etc. , looses his job and only option (if he wants to fly) is to beg for fo-contract life somewhere in Asia...
or
The 60 year old captain normally with little or no debt, grown children and loads of experience such as widebody PIC (but forever reason wants to continue flying), takes a well paied contract with 3 weeks off every 2 month somewhere in Asia ..
dont know what solidarity really is anymore, but it seems that it is taken for granted from the young end to the senior, but if senior end has to sacrifice the otherway its a big problem
The young guy with big debt, young children and little or no jetPIC etc. , looses his job and only option (if he wants to fly) is to beg for fo-contract life somewhere in Asia...
or
The 60 year old captain normally with little or no debt, grown children and loads of experience such as widebody PIC (but forever reason wants to continue flying), takes a well paied contract with 3 weeks off every 2 month somewhere in Asia ..
dont know what solidarity really is anymore, but it seems that it is taken for granted from the young end to the senior, but if senior end has to sacrifice the otherway its a big problem
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I have been there...
When I was starting out in the USA in the mid-70's I kept coming up against retired Air Force officers who were happy to work for peanuts in General Aviation since they already had a generous pension. There was a layer of these guys who really felt that if you were not ex-Air Force then you really had no business trying to break into aviation as a young guy just starting out. You felt like a small frog trying to get through a thick layer of weed on the top of the pond.
I only got some traction by going off to fly in West Africa. There they didn't care about anything but, 'Can you get the job done?' In that case they threw you a fairly generous wage while also making it very clear that paying you marked the beginning and the end of the relationship. That suited me fine, actually.
The only problem now is age-limiting legislation, exactly the subject under discussion here. It makes it very difficult to decide whether to go for an ICAO ATPL, since I have no idea how marketable I might be, just due to my age. Passing the medical is no problem, especially since I don't drink or smoke, but yes, I am almost 58. Finesse that one, if you can!
There is a very basic human notion of giving respect to age. It might be some sort of vestigial tribal survival tactic. Certainly it's much stronger in Africa than elsewhere I have been, but it's present to some degree in almost every human society. It only goes overboard in the case of a society that has sustained serious damage. I suppose the idea is that the aged have managed to survive while accumulating experience. That said, there sure are a lot of rather stupid, silly old folks around. But compared to adolescents, not such a high proportion, perhaps.
The jeering, adolescent tone of LHR Rain is provocative precisely because it violates this notion. Given that it's not a really sound attitude to hold to I can only assume he's wishing to wind people up by taking such a cavalier view of a problem most of us will have to confront at some time or other. What was he doing in English class the day they got around to 'No man is an iland'? He seems to have missed this very basic point, that we all share the same fate to some extent. Or does he have some plan that will see him remain a perpetual teenager?
I do not expect this legislation to change any time soon, or at least not soon enough to do me much good. That is life. There should still be some corner of the scene that needs someone like me. It will just be a matter of finding it. Or perhaps I end up driving a tractor for the local pig farmer. I plan to put the four-bar epaulettes on the blue overalls, in that case. That should get automatic respect from the pigs, right?
I only got some traction by going off to fly in West Africa. There they didn't care about anything but, 'Can you get the job done?' In that case they threw you a fairly generous wage while also making it very clear that paying you marked the beginning and the end of the relationship. That suited me fine, actually.
The only problem now is age-limiting legislation, exactly the subject under discussion here. It makes it very difficult to decide whether to go for an ICAO ATPL, since I have no idea how marketable I might be, just due to my age. Passing the medical is no problem, especially since I don't drink or smoke, but yes, I am almost 58. Finesse that one, if you can!
There is a very basic human notion of giving respect to age. It might be some sort of vestigial tribal survival tactic. Certainly it's much stronger in Africa than elsewhere I have been, but it's present to some degree in almost every human society. It only goes overboard in the case of a society that has sustained serious damage. I suppose the idea is that the aged have managed to survive while accumulating experience. That said, there sure are a lot of rather stupid, silly old folks around. But compared to adolescents, not such a high proportion, perhaps.
The jeering, adolescent tone of LHR Rain is provocative precisely because it violates this notion. Given that it's not a really sound attitude to hold to I can only assume he's wishing to wind people up by taking such a cavalier view of a problem most of us will have to confront at some time or other. What was he doing in English class the day they got around to 'No man is an iland'? He seems to have missed this very basic point, that we all share the same fate to some extent. Or does he have some plan that will see him remain a perpetual teenager?
I do not expect this legislation to change any time soon, or at least not soon enough to do me much good. That is life. There should still be some corner of the scene that needs someone like me. It will just be a matter of finding it. Or perhaps I end up driving a tractor for the local pig farmer. I plan to put the four-bar epaulettes on the blue overalls, in that case. That should get automatic respect from the pigs, right?
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LHR rain,
If you look at my post you will note that I do not say anything about Usair. I will be the last person who will defend Usair. I am on record in these forums as being unhappy with the usair management, MEC, and alpa itself. It has not had good management since 1989, and only now has a slim chance with the America west merger. To say that I am defending Usair is once again one of your little lies.
Your ignorance is showing through because you know nothing about the law in the states regarding airlines in bankruptcy. Because I think that there is hope for you yet, I will once again attempt to help you understand.
quote:
If you are correct in saying a judge "took" your pension why did not this same judge take Delta's, NW, CAL et al?
First of all, there is more than one judge in the federal bankruptcy system in the states. The judge assigned to the case is determined by where you file bankruptcy. Secondly, none of these airlines are in bankruptcy yet and their management can do nothing unless they are. They must convince the court and the PBGC that the pension funds are indeed insolvent. Only then will the judge make a ruling. You can bet that Delta will file soon to get pension relief.
quote:
United voted, yes they voted to give up their pension.
No they did not vote to give up their pension. In fact the united pilots and flight attendants are suing to try and get their pensions restored. I do not know the status of the mechanics.
As a side note ALL employees of Usair had their pension funds terminated, and I believe that it is the same with United.
Maybe a united pilot could shed some light on this.
quote:
You say US Air did not and I guess I have to beleive you at this time.
Do not take my word for it, you can get all of the information from alpa, as it is all public record.
Quote:
But why did you not go on stirke like the NW Engineers and stand up for something. Put another way what did you as an individual or as a pilot group do to stop this atrocity from happening. I believe you did nothing!
In the states you can not just go on strike. You must negotiate until the mediator declares an impasse. Then a 30 day cooling off period has to take place, when intense last minute negotiations happen. At the end of the 30 days the employees can strike and the company can impose a contract. The northwest engineers went on strike because the 30 day cooling off period had expired. There was never an impasse called or a 30 day period started at Usair. If we would have gone on strike we would had been ordered by a judge to return to work and fined millions of dollars in damages. The American Airline pilots tried this in the 90's and lost big time. The judge ordered them back to work and the union had to pay the company over 40 million dollars in damages. (it may have been more than this, I can not remember the exact amount) You can not just go on strike. Airlines, trucking companies and railroads are the only industries in the states who have to follow these rules. It is part of the railway labor act, which also covers airlines.
quote:
As you alluded to some people have balls and US Air has proved time and again they did not.
Time and time again huh! Tell me about all of these times I would love to hear. We would have loved to go on strike to stop the pension termination. We could not. It was against the law.
I have enough balls to tell you that you are full of crap and you have no idea what you are talking about. I back up what I say with facts. You do not. All you have is your emotions and a sence of how you want things to be. Just because you want things to be a certian way, it does not make it so. Facts are facts, and history is documented. You can not change either for the sake of argument. Unfortunately how you want history to be is not how it happend. I lived it, you only imagine it!
quote:
Don't take your frustrations out on someone else and don't ruin the industry by raising the retirment age.
How exectly will raising the retirement age ruin the industry. Did it ruin the industry when the age 60 rule was put into place? Of course not. And how am I taking my frustrations out on someone else? Could I not turn around and say the same to you just because we disagree? And that is not a problem for me. The problem is that when I state the facts to back up my opinion, you tell me that my facts and arguments are wrong, even though I was there and you were not. In this case you presume to know more about it than I do. As I said I lived it, you only imagine it! That is where I have a problem with you. I would never presume to take your right to tell us all your opinion. But, please do a little research.
No one gives up their pension. We did vote to take the pay cuts, and I think it was a mistake because our management just pissed away all of the savings we gave them. As I have told you before, we never had the chance to vote on the pension termination. It was a court order, and you do not ratify a court order, you obey. You will not find one pilot in the states who voted to give up their pension. It did not happen. Please educate yourself and learn the truth, it will make you wiser, and cut down on the frustration level for the rest of us!
330 Man
If you look at my post you will note that I do not say anything about Usair. I will be the last person who will defend Usair. I am on record in these forums as being unhappy with the usair management, MEC, and alpa itself. It has not had good management since 1989, and only now has a slim chance with the America west merger. To say that I am defending Usair is once again one of your little lies.
Your ignorance is showing through because you know nothing about the law in the states regarding airlines in bankruptcy. Because I think that there is hope for you yet, I will once again attempt to help you understand.
quote:
If you are correct in saying a judge "took" your pension why did not this same judge take Delta's, NW, CAL et al?
First of all, there is more than one judge in the federal bankruptcy system in the states. The judge assigned to the case is determined by where you file bankruptcy. Secondly, none of these airlines are in bankruptcy yet and their management can do nothing unless they are. They must convince the court and the PBGC that the pension funds are indeed insolvent. Only then will the judge make a ruling. You can bet that Delta will file soon to get pension relief.
quote:
United voted, yes they voted to give up their pension.
No they did not vote to give up their pension. In fact the united pilots and flight attendants are suing to try and get their pensions restored. I do not know the status of the mechanics.
As a side note ALL employees of Usair had their pension funds terminated, and I believe that it is the same with United.
Maybe a united pilot could shed some light on this.
quote:
You say US Air did not and I guess I have to beleive you at this time.
Do not take my word for it, you can get all of the information from alpa, as it is all public record.
Quote:
But why did you not go on stirke like the NW Engineers and stand up for something. Put another way what did you as an individual or as a pilot group do to stop this atrocity from happening. I believe you did nothing!
In the states you can not just go on strike. You must negotiate until the mediator declares an impasse. Then a 30 day cooling off period has to take place, when intense last minute negotiations happen. At the end of the 30 days the employees can strike and the company can impose a contract. The northwest engineers went on strike because the 30 day cooling off period had expired. There was never an impasse called or a 30 day period started at Usair. If we would have gone on strike we would had been ordered by a judge to return to work and fined millions of dollars in damages. The American Airline pilots tried this in the 90's and lost big time. The judge ordered them back to work and the union had to pay the company over 40 million dollars in damages. (it may have been more than this, I can not remember the exact amount) You can not just go on strike. Airlines, trucking companies and railroads are the only industries in the states who have to follow these rules. It is part of the railway labor act, which also covers airlines.
quote:
As you alluded to some people have balls and US Air has proved time and again they did not.
Time and time again huh! Tell me about all of these times I would love to hear. We would have loved to go on strike to stop the pension termination. We could not. It was against the law.
I have enough balls to tell you that you are full of crap and you have no idea what you are talking about. I back up what I say with facts. You do not. All you have is your emotions and a sence of how you want things to be. Just because you want things to be a certian way, it does not make it so. Facts are facts, and history is documented. You can not change either for the sake of argument. Unfortunately how you want history to be is not how it happend. I lived it, you only imagine it!
quote:
Don't take your frustrations out on someone else and don't ruin the industry by raising the retirment age.
How exectly will raising the retirement age ruin the industry. Did it ruin the industry when the age 60 rule was put into place? Of course not. And how am I taking my frustrations out on someone else? Could I not turn around and say the same to you just because we disagree? And that is not a problem for me. The problem is that when I state the facts to back up my opinion, you tell me that my facts and arguments are wrong, even though I was there and you were not. In this case you presume to know more about it than I do. As I said I lived it, you only imagine it! That is where I have a problem with you. I would never presume to take your right to tell us all your opinion. But, please do a little research.
No one gives up their pension. We did vote to take the pay cuts, and I think it was a mistake because our management just pissed away all of the savings we gave them. As I have told you before, we never had the chance to vote on the pension termination. It was a court order, and you do not ratify a court order, you obey. You will not find one pilot in the states who voted to give up their pension. It did not happen. Please educate yourself and learn the truth, it will make you wiser, and cut down on the frustration level for the rest of us!
330 Man
Last edited by 330 Man; 27th Aug 2005 at 08:16.
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Really don't think there is much chance of you getting a sensible answer there A330 Man. LHRain is , I believe, a very young person with no experience at all within commercial avaiation, doubt he even has a licence.
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Dr Wilkening's evidence says it all. There is NO MEDICAL EVIDENCE to support loss of licence at any age. As long as I can continue to pass my medicals, even if I have to do them more frequently or do extra checks, then I should be allowed to hold my licence.
The issue of pension plans/entitlements is an entirely separate one and has nothing to do with the age 60/61/62/65 rule as applies currently in numerous countries worldwide. An individual's personal financial circumstances are just that - individual to him. Sure he/she can have had bad luck during a career and may need to keep flying till 70! But that has nothing to do with ana arbitrary compulsory 'retirement' due to not being allowed to hold the licence purely on age grounds. US ALPA has been the real problem here. They have no interest in anything except their own members and I don't blame them for that as that's what they exist for and are paid by.
However many of those members who might have fully supported the 60 rule now have different priorities due to the majors being at last having to face commercial realities. That may mean the ALPA changes it's attitude to the rule but it really has no bearing on the basic issue.
An old friend used to say (at union meetings) that pilot always tood the 'broad view" How does this affect me!!
Its obvious that this still applies to many pilots.
The issue of pension plans/entitlements is an entirely separate one and has nothing to do with the age 60/61/62/65 rule as applies currently in numerous countries worldwide. An individual's personal financial circumstances are just that - individual to him. Sure he/she can have had bad luck during a career and may need to keep flying till 70! But that has nothing to do with ana arbitrary compulsory 'retirement' due to not being allowed to hold the licence purely on age grounds. US ALPA has been the real problem here. They have no interest in anything except their own members and I don't blame them for that as that's what they exist for and are paid by.
However many of those members who might have fully supported the 60 rule now have different priorities due to the majors being at last having to face commercial realities. That may mean the ALPA changes it's attitude to the rule but it really has no bearing on the basic issue.
An old friend used to say (at union meetings) that pilot always tood the 'broad view" How does this affect me!!
Its obvious that this still applies to many pilots.
Wow, this is a tough room! Here goes anyway. Quite an emotional subject for a great many pilots fighting in the war that is a flying career. With such a history of economic turmoil and political maneuvering by the various interest groups involved, it's no suprise to me that the presentation of misinformation and disinformation are used by interest groups as a convenient tactic to support an argument they want to win for their own economic reasons. The history of the age 60 rule in the US is just one such example. No credible scientific body of evidence has ever suggested that arbitrary retirement ages for airline pilots yield any measurable safety benefit to the public. Not in 1959 and not now. If an objective test of cognitive function and piloting skills existed and was used to establish individual qualification for duty, the results would likely create a state of chaos in the industry. (as if that were not allready the case!) Age 65 is just as arbitrary as age 60 or 55. Some pilots want to work longer for their own economic or personal reasons. Industry generally wants these guys out for their own economic and other business reasons. Younger pilots want these guys out of their chairs so they can have a turn. Difficult to imagine which position would most benefit the unions. The starter of this thread recognizes that the members may be able to affect the union position. Good luck. So with these competing interests all having their say, hoping to benefit themselves, who do you believe? Whichever position you feel provides the greatest benefit to yourself, of course! What else? Since I have always been a believer in the merit system, I would favor an objective qualification system and eliminate the age reference entirely. If others view it differently, that's understandable for the aforementioned reasons. The important part of this from a public safety standpoint is "can we feel confident in your ability to do the job?" So public relations will probably have as much or more to do with the outcome of the age 60 rule as scientific or competitive business interests. Who will win the PR battle?
Best wishes to all,
Westhawk
Best wishes to all,
Westhawk
Trash du Blanc
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You folks act like the Age 60 Rule only affects you when you turn sixty!
Because of this rule you:
- got hired sooner,
- got bigger aircraft sooner,
- made captain sooner.
Now that all the possible benefits have been extracted from this rule, you want to remove it!
I'll tell you what - I'll support getting rid of the rule when I'm 58. Deal?
Because of this rule you:
- got hired sooner,
- got bigger aircraft sooner,
- made captain sooner.
Now that all the possible benefits have been extracted from this rule, you want to remove it!
I'll tell you what - I'll support getting rid of the rule when I'm 58. Deal?
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age 60
Having just flown with my first over 60 the other day, I gotta tell you, I do not support the over 60 rule. He was slow, lethargic, and couldn't even remember the responses to the checklists. A nice enough bloke, but not someone I want carting my family around. When I am that age, put me out to pasture!!!
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He was slow, lethargic, and couldn't even remember the responses to the checklists. A nice enough bloke, but not someone I want carting my family around.
But surely you could also be describing a 'new hire' young co-pilot UAL? Or do you mean to tell me you operated at 110% from day 1?
But surely you could also be describing a 'new hire' young co-pilot UAL? Or do you mean to tell me you operated at 110% from day 1?
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Rain Man wrote, "The reason some of the world has raised their retirement age is because those countries don't pay their pilots anything."
I wouldn't call USD20k/month "not being paid anything", because that is roughly what Japanese airlines pay their Captains, and Japan raised the age 60 retirement to 62 a couple of years ago, and has now upped it to 65.
Having just flown with my first blue-eyed F.O. the other day, I gotta tell you, I do not support the 2-pilot rule. He was slow, lethargic, and couldn't even remember the responses to the checklists. A nice enough bloke, but not someone I want carting my family around!!!
Ban ALL F/O's I say, based on this one bloke's performance!!!
I wouldn't call USD20k/month "not being paid anything", because that is roughly what Japanese airlines pay their Captains, and Japan raised the age 60 retirement to 62 a couple of years ago, and has now upped it to 65.
Having just flown with my first blue-eyed F.O. the other day, I gotta tell you, I do not support the 2-pilot rule. He was slow, lethargic, and couldn't even remember the responses to the checklists. A nice enough bloke, but not someone I want carting my family around!!!
Ban ALL F/O's I say, based on this one bloke's performance!!!
Having just read the first post by an Aussie.....
But seriously, I do hope you don't demonstrate this kind of lazy, ill-considered thinking at your job. You could find yourself being put out to pasture much sooner than you think. Next time, you might try to find out what his strengths are and use them to your benefit if you think he has any. If not, then you must be so good as to not require any assistance from some oldster anyway. Good luck with that. Or maybe you just didn't feel comfortable in that situation and impulsively posted your words without considering the implications or even the validity of your conclusions. I'm certain that you would not like to be judged harshly on the basis that since Peter the Aussie is a con-man, then so are you. Do try and give the next oldster the benefit of the doubt until he proves himself unworthy of your respect, won't you? I promise to do the same for all the other Aussies!
Westhawk
But seriously, I do hope you don't demonstrate this kind of lazy, ill-considered thinking at your job. You could find yourself being put out to pasture much sooner than you think. Next time, you might try to find out what his strengths are and use them to your benefit if you think he has any. If not, then you must be so good as to not require any assistance from some oldster anyway. Good luck with that. Or maybe you just didn't feel comfortable in that situation and impulsively posted your words without considering the implications or even the validity of your conclusions. I'm certain that you would not like to be judged harshly on the basis that since Peter the Aussie is a con-man, then so are you. Do try and give the next oldster the benefit of the doubt until he proves himself unworthy of your respect, won't you? I promise to do the same for all the other Aussies!
Westhawk
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well I am 56 and if they up the retirement age to 65 I will fly to that if I feel like it , stay healthy and pass my checks.
I have got absolutely no intention of vacating my seat just because the guy sitting next to me wants it.
End of discussion.
I have got absolutely no intention of vacating my seat just because the guy sitting next to me wants it.
End of discussion.
Huck,
Some of us were in airlines that had 3 pilot a/c, when they changed to 2 pilot we waited our turn (twice as long as you).
Waiting your turn without whinging is good manners!!
Some of us were in airlines that had 3 pilot a/c, when they changed to 2 pilot we waited our turn (twice as long as you).
Waiting your turn without whinging is good manners!!
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Some of us were in airlines that had 3 pilot a/c(....)
This whole argument revolves around whose oxe is being gored. And there will always be more junior pilots. Even when it's my turn in ~15 years and I take up the banner....
Last edited by Huck; 28th Aug 2005 at 14:38.
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Dear Huck and others,
When I was under 30 my basic approach to most people over 30 was, 'You ain't dead yet?' So, live and learn.
I have no problem with someone changing their whole approach to something once it becomes an issue that directly affects them. Should I expect everyone else to suddenly develop a massive case of compassion because I am finally hitting an age barrier? I could not have cared less about this until it finally affected first some of my colleagues and then me.
The only thing is, try to keep things reasonably civil rather than being needlessly provocative, especially about something that is already a sensitive topic. Some of the adolescent postings here give me a strong suspicion there are people with too much time on their hands busy impersonating professional aviators for their own shallow amusement. That would be one of the problems with an anonymous forum, I suppose.
When I was under 30 my basic approach to most people over 30 was, 'You ain't dead yet?' So, live and learn.
I have no problem with someone changing their whole approach to something once it becomes an issue that directly affects them. Should I expect everyone else to suddenly develop a massive case of compassion because I am finally hitting an age barrier? I could not have cared less about this until it finally affected first some of my colleagues and then me.
The only thing is, try to keep things reasonably civil rather than being needlessly provocative, especially about something that is already a sensitive topic. Some of the adolescent postings here give me a strong suspicion there are people with too much time on their hands busy impersonating professional aviators for their own shallow amusement. That would be one of the problems with an anonymous forum, I suppose.
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So you most of you want to change the rules the closer you get to retirement? Whow does that suit you or what? Like someone said on this post all of you would have longer times to command, longer redundancies, and slower movement if it was not for this Age 60 rule.
No, $220,000 is not a lot of money especially in Japan for a widebody command with the very high cost of living and taxes they have in the land of the rising sun.
330 Man,
Just got an email from my United friend. He said that the union leadership in their infinite wisdom voted to give up the pension when they did. The pilots as a group did not get to vote on the proposal which seems hard for me to believe. The leadership takes years of your savings and you don\'t get to vote on that.
Also it seems to me if a judge "takes" your retirement and changes your terms and conditions you when then have the right to strike. What are you suppose to do, sit there and take it with no recourse or very little recourse?
No, $220,000 is not a lot of money especially in Japan for a widebody command with the very high cost of living and taxes they have in the land of the rising sun.
330 Man,
Just got an email from my United friend. He said that the union leadership in their infinite wisdom voted to give up the pension when they did. The pilots as a group did not get to vote on the proposal which seems hard for me to believe. The leadership takes years of your savings and you don\'t get to vote on that.
Also it seems to me if a judge "takes" your retirement and changes your terms and conditions you when then have the right to strike. What are you suppose to do, sit there and take it with no recourse or very little recourse?